Range of motion issue

Discussion in 'Dog Health Care' started by DJEtzel, Apr 23, 2013.

  1. DJEtzel

    DJEtzel New Member

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    I'm just wondering why this was a neccessary remark in the thread...

    I don't think anyone here has said that they wouldn't get a consultation or would/did ignore the advice of one, or wouldn't treat their dogs.

    Just because many might not opt for an MRI doesn't mean they aren't still following a treatment plan that can better fit their resources/budget, especially when it has been made quite clear by you and others that an MRI doesn't equal results/answers by any means.

    I think everyone would do all they could in their positions if their dogs needed to see a vet, but opting for long-term treatment/rehab over MRI doesn't mean they should feel guilty; an MRI might not have found out anything at all.
     
  2. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    I heartily endorse the suggestion to go to a rehab vet. They are much better at soft tissue lamenesses than most GPs.

    Also be sure to mention that you've been doing this kind of stuff with him: http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248795

    The jumping on a concrete floor can be hard on the wrists.
     
  3. DJEtzel

    DJEtzel New Member

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    Went to the rehab vet today, everything went great. We did some exercises, took some measurements of movement, vet looked at our previous X-rays, and range of motion has returned, so he was not worried about anything. He's assuming it was a very slight soft tissue injury so we're resting for another week with Previcox and building back up his endurance for long walks. So in a week he gets to start going on short walks and coming back to the park with me.

    A couple of jumps for a frisbee two months ago did not cause the sudden limp three weeks ago. Vet thinks he was just not used to running for so long and didn't know how to limit himself.

    I also wouldn't start pointing fingers at people ruining their dogs when you're letting a young dog who isn't even done growing (let along maturing) pull weight. IMO, it's just as detrimental as activity that they do on their own. Ie; Recon jumps that high ON HIS OWN playing with toys.
     
  4. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    Are you talking to me? LOL. I wasn't aware that advising you to be sure to inform your veterinarian of all the activities your dog participates in that potentially could contribute to an injury was "pointing fingers."
     
  5. DJEtzel

    DJEtzel New Member

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    Yes I am, and yes you were.

    Neither of my vets cared that he was even in agility or about anything he has done in the past as it had nothing to do with the incidents surrounding the injury- both just asked if there was trauma when it started, which there was not.

    So yes, if you'd like to say that I'm hurting mine when it is obvious they had nothing to do with each other, I will do the same.
     
  6. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Well, that's ugly of you.

    /Shock
     
  7. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    I dig that you are feeling defensive in this thread, but you are projecting.

    I find this astonishing. Two veterinarians (one of whom is apparently a rehab vet?) don't think that agility could possibly have anything to do with a limp? Excuse me while I pick my jaw up off the floor.

    Okay? I'm not sure what mushing (which is not weight pulling btw) with my 5 year old and 2 1/2 year old, not limping, orthopedically sound and x-rayed dogs has to do with your limping puppy, but I'm sure lashing out at me made you feel better for a second?
     
  8. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    I trust Sass, being a vet, would be a fantastic resource to use. Reminding you to be aware and share with your vet is helpful, not a slight.

    I seriously question the validity of any vet discrediting the connection between repetitive jumping and a limping puppy.

    I'm glad the vet told you what you wanted to hear, I hope the injury is not reoccurring and your continued rest will put it in the past for good.
     
  9. DJEtzel

    DJEtzel New Member

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    Neither questioned it twice. As I said, the limp only happened during long runs, and they think he just over-did it.

    Yes, when you have no idea the context of things you see and decide to try to offend me by telling me I caused this, I'm going to get a little defensive.
     
  10. Beanie

    Beanie Clicker Cult Coordinator

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    Just need to chime in that this is absolutely not true. This comes up in my puppy classes all the time when I tell people to keep jump heights low, somebody starts panicking that their dog jumping on and off the bed is hurting the dog. Activity a dog does on his own during play is not the same as asking a dog to perform structured jumping during any kind of sport.
     
  11. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    Djetzel,

    I think you need to just take a step back here and look at what people are telling you. It's not that a traumatic injury caused the limp, but over time, repeated jumping/running/whatever have you, can and will have a negative impact on a young puppy's growing structure.

    I have been there. I jumped my adolescent border collie too much and too high as a puppy and he ended up with a long lasting shoulder injury and retired from agility early. I wish someone would have warned me about the serious implications of what I was having him do.

    The people that are warning you have experience just like I do. It may not be firsthand but they have it. They've been in dogs long enough to see fantastic dogs end careers early because of rushing training.

    With my dogs, I am taking the safe route and always have. I've had them evaluated by orthopedic vets for weaknesses in their structure. Zinga had radiographic proof that her growth plates were closed before starting ANY jumping or contact work.

    I pay close attention to the flooring and footing before doing any sport with my dogs and absolutely would never, ever throw a disc on concrete floor or even ask for any jumping behavior there. Too slippery and there's no give.

    You will always find people who say that it's ok to jump young dogs, or ok to play on whatever surface. You as a handler have to weigh the risks and benefits. I know for me, that one training session is absolutely not worth the risk of ending my dog's career.

    So yes, that one session of playing disc didn't CAUSE your dog's injury. However, it certainly didn't help it and adding all of the things you are doing with him at this young age together, it builds up and can eventually cause a chronic injury that presents similarly.

    For what it's worth, my vet said it would be ok to do vaults with Zinga when she was 8 months old because her growth plates were "most likely closed".

    ETA: that above was an example of bad advice. Her growth plates didn't actually close until 12 months.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2013
  12. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    Well, I didn't tell you that you caused this, but if that's how you're going to interpret advice then okay. Good luck to Recon. :)
     
  13. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    ^Yes.
     
  14. DJEtzel

    DJEtzel New Member

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    I hope I can word what I'm thinking as well as I'm thinking it...

    I think I understand, for the most part, what people are trying to tell me. The fashion they are doing it in is what is bothering me the most, since I feel that there is at least somewhat of a misunderstanding. Passive aggressive comments, comments from people I've never talked to before, etc. are not going to help anything.

    I bought Recon from a breeder that has been showing in agility, flyball, and herding, for a long time. I have taken all of her advice and contractual limits and followed them to a T. I have been training with numerous successful agility trainers over the years and many veteran showers, all of whom I've gotten advice from regarding how much to do and what not to do, and when. I've gotten advice from my general vet AND a rehab specialist now, as well. I cannot believe that everyone I know that sees us train and knows what we are actually doing is ok with it while everyone online is not. There has to be a miscommunication somewhere. That said, we are taking a session off of training for a variety of reasons regardless, for Recon to heal and rest and build some muscle.

    Was the frisbee thing (not on concrete, and with a textured surface, just for the record) pushing it? Probably. And that's why I only did it once and wasn't aiming to make him jump in the first place. I realized that and just, didn't do it again. Not even outside, because he won't chase a disc outside.

    And I certainly understand Vets having crappy opinions, which is why I'm not sure why everyone is expecting me to take one vet's biased opinion here... And I say biased because she blatantly dislikes me, frowns upon everything I've ever done, and has publicly mocked or encouraged the mocking and ridicule of me for years. There is no way I am going to trust people that I only know through the internet when I have no reason to trust them because of stuff like this, or passive aggressive comments made about things that they were not there to observe. I do appreciate comments like yours and take them into consideration, which is why I am typing out such a long response.

    I'm sure many people would still think that 4" jumps for a puppy once a week or every other week for 5-10 minutes accumulative is too much, but this goes back to me weighing the pros and cons of what I have read, what people are telling me on the internet, and what people are telling me in real life. Weave comments were obviously taken out of context, there is no way I would encourage a puppy to do that sort of impact, which is the same reason we are not doing anything on a contact except for finding 2o2o with a plank and getting used to a teeter moving at low heights.

    We take a lot of time in between classes for rest, we warm up well and cool down well, and don't push it. We don't practice much on our own between classes because I am not trying to rush anything. We do a lot of jump sequences at low heights and tunnels/chutes. We do a lot of muscle memory stuff for crosses and sends on the flat. That is all? I thank you for the concern, genuinely. :)
     
  15. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    I do appreciate the polite reply; I still don't agree with working a young dog that way, but I'm always grateful when people can be polite about their opinions. I hope that comes across as genuine, because it is.

    As a client, this would seriously worry me. A vet, particularly one specializing in rehab or sports medicine, needs to be more interested in the dog's regular activities. It was one of the things that I really, really liked about the rehab vet Gusto saw. Not only did she want to know that he did agility, but she wanted to discuss his weaving style and contact behaviors and know about how he played with his toys. It all affected the plan for getting him back to work.
     

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