Quick crate question- what would you do?

Sch3Dana

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#41
Hi Seatrainer,

I think we are on the same page, but I've never trained a dolphin. Personally, I like to use a lot of opposition reflex and competitive play in my training. I'm thinking restraint and wrestling doesn't work with dolphins, eh? The slippery little devils :lol-sign:

But, it may well work with a cattle dog. So, I'll give you the basic idea and you can decide if you want to play with this sort of thing. I do agree with the others, though- you don't need to use the jackpot to reward a super fast response. I think you will probably still get what you are looking for after a few instances through an improved attitude and "drive level". But, I also do not like to reward a dog for reluctant performance. I liked Rebecca's suggestion about adding a little leash pressure to encourage compliance so that you could follow through with some leash pressure on slow responses. But some of you do not want to use the leash in that way, so here is another option.

So, you are familiar with "opposition reflex", right? Meaning when you apply pressure the dog has a tendency to resist the pressure, going in the opposite direction from it? Leash trainers tend to hate opposition reflex. They train dogs to follow the leash pressure. But, I think opposition reflex lets you do some cool things to increase drive and concentration by convincing your dog you are trying to compete with him in the training game. You do have to be careful and thoughtful about how you do this, bc it can interfere with later training geared more towards compliance.

You might start away from the crate, since that is the issue. Use a target of some kind that she is familiar with and hold her away from it when you start the exercise. You can hold her by the chest from behind or rest a hand against her chest from in front. Make sure the target is there and she knows that it is the exercise she is working on. Apply steady even pressure against her chest until she shows that she is thinking about the target and leaning towards it into your hand. At that point, move your hand, let her hit her target and reward. Work on this until she pushes through more and more resistance to get to her target. Then try it with the crate. If she hesitates, you just keep the pressure on until she decides to go for it. (Kind of like Rebecca's method, but with her pushing through the pressure instead of moving with it). Initially, the pressure always comes before any command or signal. When she really pushes hard, it's time to move on.

Now you can use the pressure as a "correction" when she is slow or lazy in her exercises. If you tell her "crate" and she looks at you instead of moving, quickly grab her around the chest (this can't scare her) and start pulling her away from the crate. She should resist and then you let her go to the crate and reward. When you are doing this, it has to feel like a game to the dog and you or you will not get what you are looking for. This is a competitive game and she has to feel that. When she is doing really well with it, I would occasionally pull her off and put her away when you need to restrain her for hesitation. You want her to see that there is some chance she will lose the competition and then she won't get to play again for a while. Put her in a different crate (physically) or in the yard or on a short tie-out in the house. A few minutes later get her out and do this exercise again, trying to make sure she succeeds.

This type of competitive training will not work with all dogs. I would not even try this on a cavalier, for example. But it works great on my mals and I think it would work great on most cattle dogs. They are tough, drivey little things and should enjoy thinking they are out-powering their handlers. Of course, you need to make sure this only works within the proper context or you will have a pushy little monster on your hands.

Let me know what you think and if you try it.
 

seatrainer

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#42
Sch3dana,
Thanks for the suggestion. I might give it a try and see how she reacts, later. She picked up on the whole walk with the leash thing pretty quickly, and I don't recall her pushing back if I ever held her by the chest before, but I may see how it works. On a side note, the biscuit ball, with some special goodies inside, is starting to work as well...this morning she laid down outside the crate (I had not yet asked her in) I showed her the ball with the goodies in it and put it in the crate. She hesitated, but followed it in pretty good :) I'll stick with this for awhile and if it doesn't continue to progress, I may give your method a try... :)
 
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lizzybeth727

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#43
I just came upon this thread and honestly did not read all five pages of it, so I apologize if this advice has been given before, but I don't think it has....

Anyway, I'm doing similar training exercises to get my dogs to respond to many basic commands quickly (sit, down, hand touch, leave it, etc.). Of course you don't want to do this until your dog really does know the behavior - i.e., you say the cue and the dog eventually does the right behavior. I think, OP, you're ready for this with the kennel.

Anyway, first try to figure out how long it usually takes your dog to do the crating behavior after you've said the cue. Let's say it's about 5 seconds, about 70% of the time, sometimes more sometimes less. Ok, now say the "kennel" cue (whatever it is). Wait 5 seconds. If your dog does the behavior within the 5 seconds, of course, reward that. If your dog does not do the behavior within 5 seconds (even if she's offering other behaviors), walk away. Ignore her for at least 10 seconds, then come back and repeat - say the cue again, wait 5 seconds, reward the right behavior, walk away if you don't get that behavior.

This also works well if she's establishing a pattern - you say "kennel" (or whatever your cue is), she always sits, downs, puts one foot in the kennel, and THEN goes in. At first, as long as she eventually goes into the kennel in your set amount of time, that's ok, but if she does the same sequence three or more times, then walk away as soon as she offers a behavior besides what you are asking for.

You do have to be careful, though, sometimes dogs will get very confused and stop offering any behavior. If this happens, you can mark/treat just looking at the kennel, or small steps toward the kennel, whatever will make her successful and want to keep trying.
 
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#44
lizzybeth727,
Thanks...the only problem I see with that scenario, is by walking away, she gets reinforced...she's still out of the kennel, which is her ultimate "reward". Or am I not understanding what you're saying?
 

lizzybeth727

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#45
lizzybeth727,
Thanks...the only problem I see with that scenario, is by walking away, she gets reinforced...she's still out of the kennel, which is her ultimate "reward". Or am I not understanding what you're saying?
She enjoys going into the kennel, right? She's been rewarded a lot for going in? She knows that when she goes in, she'll get a treat? Then walking away will take away that possibility of reward. Continuing to cue her to go in will only give her attention (which is a reward) for not doing the behavior.

Just make sure she doesn't reward herself in other ways, for example, she runs off and finds a toy.

And you don't have to walk FAR away, just a few steps is fine. But you can walk into a different room if you want to.
 
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#46
She does go in the kennel, gets lots of treats, and is quite quiet once in there, even when the door is closed (after a short period of barking/whining). She just doesn't like the initial idea of possibly being left alone in there...if you read Sch3dana's post about "weighing her options" I think that explains it best.
 
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#48
sparks19's idea is working quite well. She gets a couple pieces of hot dog when she gets put in the kennel, along with her biscuit ball. As of now, she's not beating me to the kennel, but goes in right away when we get over to it. It's a start in the right direction!
 

Sch3Dana

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#49
So, is she still continuing to improve? Are you still seeing the guessing when you ask he to go in or have the hot dogs totally won her over? My mals are pretty easy to trick with good treats, but I'm training a client dog right now who thinks about everything you ask her to do. She is so smart and outsmarts her people at every turn, the poor newbies. It is so much harder to train a thinker! I can never understand why everyone wants a "smart" dog. Give me a greedy one! :lol-sign:
 
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#50
She's going in a bit faster than before I started the hot dogs. She's definately a thinker, but I think her belly is stating to win... :) As of now, she sits by the fridge when I'm getting out the hot dogs, then runs over the kennel...doesn't go charging in it yet, but does respond faster then when the hot dogs were not in the picture... I think she's caught on, her belly just has to win out over her head! :) I'll keep you posted...what other tricks are you using with your clients thinking dog?
 

adojrts

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#51
It is so much harder to train a thinker! I can never understand why everyone wants a "smart" dog. Give me a greedy one! :lol-sign:
LMAO how true, a few years ago, a bunch of us were chatting at an agility trial, one woman was complaining about her 'dumb dog' and saying it must be so much easier to train a smart dog. Several of us responded at the same time with 'No, they are much harder!!'
Granted a smart dog can be pure h*ll for a newbie, I personally love the challenges that the smart ones present. There is no doubt that the smart ones learn very quickly, but they just as quickly figure out how to work that to their advantage. Gotta love it.
 

houndlove

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#52
I know that I for one am glad that my dogs are not the sharpest tools in the shed. Marlowe can be devilishly smart but only in very select circumstances involving specific motivators (the finding, acquiring, and eating of food) and the rest of the time he's kind of a dunce. It's really easy to foil his various schemes because his schemes really aren't that clever and he gives up pretty easily.
 

Sch3Dana

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#53
No real tricks for the thinking dog. I am just trying to get the people to see how she is out-thinking them and get a bit ahead of her in the game. There are also some significant, but not yet serious aggression issues that we are dealing with (malinois from police lines). For that I am making sure they never move away from her if she is threatening them and teaching her that compliance will get her what she wants, not posturing. The people are pretty cool and I am hopeful that it will work. I've never before worked with a pup who was so clear and thoughtful about her behavior, including the aggression. Most aggressive dogs are coming out of nerves, not manipulation, at least initially. This girl just tries the aggression on for size to see if it will get her what she wants. So, obviously, I am trying to make sure that they do not create fights where there shouldn't be any. They do really typical stuff like trying to take things out of her mouth and we are working to get that going as an obedience exercise, not a power struggle.
 
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#54
Oh well, thought I would ask anyway (for other out-think-the-thinker suggestions!).
Just a quick update...she's now racing (and I mean racing to the kennel as soon as I close the fridge door (with hot dogs in hand). We're making progress!
 

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