Quick crate question- what would you do?

[seatrainer]

Hey everyone,
Quick question for you...I've seen some crate training threads on here, but wanted to pose this question...

11 week old border collie/blue heeler has "issues" with going into crate on command...offers sit, lay, shake instead. I've thought of several options of trying to break her of this (if I wait her out she will eventually go in, but I don't always have the time to wait her out...or not treat rewarding if I have to put her in the crate vs giving her a treat if she walks in on her own) but wanted to see what everyone else's thoughts were.
Thanks!

 

[corgipower]

Why not just toss a few goodies into the crate?

 

[seatrainer]

Thanks for the post, but....Tried that too...again, she will reluctantly go in at some point, after offering above behaviors. I'm trying to find a way to get her to go in faster, so she doesn't keep getting reinforced for going in "on her own time"

 

[milos_mommy]

First, make her crate fun. Don't leave her in too long. Put lots of toys and treats in it. Make it cozy. Let her go in when it's open, not just to be locked up. Put the crate somewhere where you sit, like the tv room or whatever. Toss a toy in there, when she goes in, click/treat (or just treat if you're not clicker training). Don't close it.

Have you taught her targeting yet? If not, it's quick and easy to teach. Take the lid from a container, like a plastic lid from a jar or whatever. Put it on the ground. She will most likely go sniff it. Click/treat. Move it around. Whenever she touches it with her nose or paw, click/treat. Put it in front of her crate, click/treat when she goes to it. Put it in the crate, click, then let her come out of the crate to get a treat. Give her lots of praise if she goes in on her own.

Don't ONLY use the crate when you're leaving or locking her up. Use it all the time. She'll really like it, it will be her safe place, her little den.

After she starts going in there on her own with it open, and you leave it open a few times, try shutting her in there but still doing what you're doing. For example, if you're watching tv or vacuuming the room with the crate in it, and she goes in it, shut the door, the resume what you were doing. After a few minutes (5 or 10) open it. She'll probably jsut go to sleep or chew a toy quietly.

 

[seatrainer]

Hi Milos Mommy,
Thanks, but been there, done that too...the crate is always open and she goes in on her own quite a bit. I used to be a marine mammal trainer, so I know all the targeting techniques etc. She knows what the kennel command is, and I've repeatedly worked on asking her to go in, letting her right back out, leaving her in there for short times... she's got a bunch of toys in there, some of which are her "kennel only" toys that she gets only when she's in the kennel. I've got a bouncer ball on order to see if that'll work with some treats...I tried the kong, but her little kibble treats fall out too quick and she's not too crazy about peanut butter, believe it or not, in fact, she chose her (made for dogs) people cracker over peanut butter... All my usual training tricks aren't working...thanks for the thoughts tho!

 

[milos_mommy]

It's odd she'll go in on her own but won't do it on command. Are you sure she's not a bit confused? Maybe just keep practicing. Give her the command, if she goes in, serious praise/rewards/etc. If not, ignore it?

I don't know, it sounds like you know what you're doing. I find it very odd she'll go in by herself but not on command...

 

[Rebecca4614]

I may have a solution to this. It sounds like you're doing everything right and your puppy isn't responding to inducive methods on this one. As long as she's not the fearful, skittish or sensitive type, you might want to use some gentle leash pressure to teach her to go in promptly.

This method is good for dogs who have had some treat training with the crate and know what they're supposed to do (like your puppy)... it shouldn't be used as a first training step.

Crouch down next to the puppy with the crate door open. Hold her leash a foot or so from her collar with whatever hand feels comfortable to you. Put your hand into the crate and pull the leash until it's just slightly tight... don't try to pull her in, just put enough pressure on the leash that she can only move forward.

Give her the command to go into her crate in a happy voice, then wait. She may fuss a little and try to back up, but she should quickly move forward into the crate. When she does, praise her like crazy and give her a treat. Let her out immediately and repeat this several times over a couple of sessions. Make the session fun for her and don't close her in the crate at all over the first couple of sessions.

Dogs usually catch on to this very quickly, and you should find that she starts to go into the crate with little or no pressure within the first session. Once she seems to be getting it, give the command without any leash pressure, then add the pressure only if she doesn't respond promptly.

Most dogs end up loving this exercise and bounce right into the crate once they've figured it out. Be sure to always throw a party for her when she does it right!

I hope this helps!

 

[Cessena]

My dog is SO uninterested in peanut butter unless it is crunchy. But you might try some organic cream cheese? My pup goes crazy for it, he will do ANYTHING. (And since he's not very bright this is usually everythign BUT what you are trying to get him to do.)

 

[Maxy24]

Have you tied clicker training? You can teach her what the clicker means first and then start using it to train her to go in. When she looks in you click treat over and over then when she pokes her head in click and treat and repeat. Then do the same for first step in and gradually up your criteria for how far she needs to go for a click until she has her whole self in, then only click and treat when she goes in entirely. After each step (once she transitions from looking at the opening for a reward to poking her head in for a reward) stop rewarding the previous step (stop rewarding looking at the opening and only reward poking her head in (until you're ready for the next step)). Teaching her what the clicker means is easy enough just teach a simple command first like touch by putting an object down and encouraging her to paw at it, then click and treat as soon as her paw goes for or touches the object, soon enough she'll know what the clicker indicates (correct!, reward is on it's way). Once she starts going in repeatedly for the click and treat you can introduce the command and say it right before she goes in. Once you think she understands the word you can only click and treat when she goes in the crate on command. Then you can start closing the crate door for a while and letting her back out. Frequently through out the day (when you walk by the crate and have a minute to spare) call her to you and just have her go in the crate for a minute and then let her back out, just so she knows that going in the crate is no big deal and does not always mean your going someplace. Feed her in her crate and make her go in it before you prepare the food (tell her to go in, close the door, go prepare her food then come back and give it to her in the crate).

Oh and some other things to try in the kong are plain yogurt and cottage cheese

 

[seatrainer]

Hi guys,
Thanks for the suggestion Rebecca...I may give that a go. Like I said, I trained marine mammals for 10 years, but, well, you don't crate train them! :yikes: I tried all my normal training tricks and nothing seems to work...I know she knows what I want her to do...she looks at the kennel, then looks at me, whines, then offers another behavior (as if, "will this do instead?"). She will also put two feet in, or lay her head in, hoping that is good enough to meet my criteria... She also would do it before without hesitation, but has since decided that it is not what she always wants to do when I ask (and I don't always ask when she's going to be left alone...it gets changed up)... of course, when she does go in, it's a celebration of all kinds... she responds really well to positive human reaction, and is always very excited when she's done right. Again, thanks for the thoughts!

 

[seatrainer]

Maxy24,
Thanks, she's already clicker trained. Also, as stated before, she knows the behavior and will do it, eventually. I'm trying to find a way to get her to do it when I ask, not when she decides to do it sometime later, after offfering up everything else she knows and seeing if 2 feet or a head in is good enough.

 

[adojrts]

Hi;
Welcome to Chaz.
My first thoughts are first she is just 11 wks old, 2nd by offering other behaviours she doesn't full understand what you want and is trying to please you.
Have you tried marking and rewarding when she goes into the crate on her own? Or handing feeding her, her meals with C/R when she is in the crate?
Or you could play the 'get it' game, start away from the crate, kneel down hold by her collar and toss a highly valued reward or a few kibbles from her meal and toss them a couple of feet away (make sure she sees you rolling the kibble), release her, c/r when she gets them, when she is doing this reliably add your verbal cue of 'get it!', move to different locations around the home, then play the game with the crate. When she progresses to a verbal at the crate, use 'get that crate!'.
You can also, use this game (at a different time) to start teaching your recall when she turns back towards you.


Good luck
Lynn

 

[seatrainer]

Hi adojrts, thanks for the welcome and thoughts. Everytime she goes in the crate on her own, she gets praised, treats, all kinds of good stuff. Watching her behavior, I know she knows what I am asking...she'll head towards the crate, maybe put a foot or two in, then back out, whine and offer something else. She also knows sit/down/shake solid, so there no confusion with what I am asking...any time I ask for those, I get them without hesitation.

 

[Dekka]

Hmm I dunno, I would argue if she REALLY understood what you wanted and isn't afraid (you said she goes in on her own) she would go in, she really seems to want the reward.

I don't know much about them..but I have heard great things about Susan Garrett's crate games.... http://www.clickerdogs.com/crate_games_dvd.htm

 

[adojrts]

Hi adojrts, thanks for the welcome and thoughts. Everytime she goes in the crate on her own, she gets praised, treats, all kinds of good stuff. Watching her behavior, I know she knows what I am asking...she'll head towards the crate, maybe put a foot or two in, then back out, whine and offer something else. She also knows sit/down/shake solid, so there no confusion with what I am asking...any time I ask for those, I get them without hesitation.

I was editing when you posted, there is more.

 

[seatrainer]

Hi Dekka,
She was going into the kennel on command quite well (about 2 weeks) up until about a 5 days ago...then she started delaying her response to my request for her to kennel, so I know she knows what the behavior is. When she went in on command she wasn't always locked in and was always praised/treat in a big way. She does want the reward...she keeps looking at my hand, at the kennel, and will eventually go in...I'm just trying to find a way to make her going in faster than when she finally decides nothing else is going to work.

 

[seatrainer]

Thanks adojrts,
Saw the rest of your post. I may give that a try...I have tried tossing toys in there for her while she's watching...she just looks at them, then offers another behavior... :s She does like going after her cloth frisbee (not really fetching) so it may "accidently" go in the crate sometime....

 

[Dekka]

ahh but just because they used to do it, doesn't mean they realllly get it. How many things have you 'forgotten' over the years? I know I learned things last semester in one class. I knew them, I got 90% on that topic. It was brought up in class yesterday, and I needed a quick refresher :yikes:

Also make sure you are not rewarding for a slow response.. cause then you will get more slow responses...

 

[seatrainer]

Hi Dekka,
Kennel has been practiced many times on a daily basis, and she will eventually do the behavior. Your second part is the reason why I am posting...I am trying to find a way to get her to kennel faster, ie: when I ask her, vs waiting her out. I know about training, reinforcing correct behavior...lots of that transfers from dolphins to dogs...but it never hurts to ask for help when you reach a problem point.

 

[adojrts]

Hi Dekka,
She was going into the kennel on command quite well (about 2 weeks) up until about a 5 days ago...then she started delaying her response to my request for her to kennel, so I know she knows what the behavior is. When she went in on command she wasn't always locked in and was always praised/treat in a big way. She does want the reward...she keeps looking at my hand, .

Did you train her with the reward (food) in your hand? And do you have the reward in your hand now?

If you did have the food in your hand it has become part of the cue. Now without the food present she is confused.
Retrain without food in your hand, shape the behaviour with a clicker.

Lynn