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Quick crate question- what would you do?
- Thread starter seatrainer
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Oh it makes a huge difference!!! How can an animal especially a puppy understand a verbal especially if they haven't been doing the behaviour reliably? You have put a verbal to unwanted behaviours.
I train and compete in agility and we never give a label (verbal) to a dog until they are doing the desired behaviour and at speed. We never verbally encourage a slow or poor performance and we don't reward it either.
In my opinion, you have to get rid of the reward in your hand, you need to shape the behaviour and define your criteria in all fairness to the very young pup.
check out www.clickersolutions.com or www.clickertraining.com
both excellent sites on how to train dogs with a clicker.
I train and compete in agility and we never give a label (verbal) to a dog until they are doing the desired behaviour and at speed. We never verbally encourage a slow or poor performance and we don't reward it either.
In my opinion, you have to get rid of the reward in your hand, you need to shape the behaviour and define your criteria in all fairness to the very young pup.
check out www.clickersolutions.com or www.clickertraining.com
both excellent sites on how to train dogs with a clicker.
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Sorry, we may differ here...to me a clicker is a bridge between doing the behavior (or criteria expected at the time) and the reward. A verbal of "good" can be used in the same fashion. (used a clicker and/or verbal the same way when I trained sea lions). I have trained her (with a clicker) to stay and she is starting to heel. She was reliably going in the kennel immediately upon request, solidly, multiple times a day for quite some time, and has just recently started delaying the behavior. I do not want to reinforce her delay, so I am asking how to get her to do it faster. How do you get the agility dogs to increase speed?
LOL i do agility and obedience (lol and rally o)
never lure.. so never have food visible (or the toy) so it does not become contextual.
Only reward fast performances. The way to get it fast is to shape it. Since you get what you click, start back at the beginning (she should progress fast) and shape a snappy entrance to the crate.
Did you watch the video in the link I posted?
never lure.. so never have food visible (or the toy) so it does not become contextual.
Only reward fast performances. The way to get it fast is to shape it. Since you get what you click, start back at the beginning (she should progress fast) and shape a snappy entrance to the crate.
Did you watch the video in the link I posted?
Like I said, we don't use a verbal, especially if the dog is giving a slow or poor performance. It is well documented that by giving a DOG a verbal when it is giving a slow performance that we are training the dog to do the obstacle slowly and then they have to be retrained for speed (often with limited success). We also don't train them with food/toys in our hands or visable to the dog, we don't want the dog looking at our hands but doing the task at hand then being rewarded at the end.
I would expect that by bridging the clicker instead of marking with the clicker is what has caused the problem, especially if you then rewarded a slow or delayed response.
It's like Kerri stated, you get what you click.
I would expect that by bridging the clicker instead of marking with the clicker is what has caused the problem, especially if you then rewarded a slow or delayed response.
It's like Kerri stated, you get what you click.
I'm sure this will be the most useless post in here lol...
but I give my two some cut up chicken hot dogs. This is something they ONLY get when they have to be in their crates. I would just cut up the hot dogs and always say "Ok lets go get in your crates" and they would follow me because I had hot dogs and then I would say "in" and point and in they would go. I didn't really worry about how fast they got in there. I just waited until they went in (sometimes I would guide them gently at the beginning) and then I would dump the hot dogs in. They learned very quickly that the sooner they got in the crate the sooner they got their hot dogs lol
Now whenever they see the hot dog package come out of the fridge they are scrambling to the basement door trying to be the first one down there to get in their crates and get their hot dogs. I don't even have to say anything anymore lol When I had enough room in the house for their crates upstairs Belle would see me getting hot dogs ready and would just go and stand in her crate awaiting her special treat. As I was cutting them up I would see her peeking out of the crate impatiently... so then it seemed they were waiting on ME instead of me waiting on them lol
but I give my two some cut up chicken hot dogs. This is something they ONLY get when they have to be in their crates. I would just cut up the hot dogs and always say "Ok lets go get in your crates" and they would follow me because I had hot dogs and then I would say "in" and point and in they would go. I didn't really worry about how fast they got in there. I just waited until they went in (sometimes I would guide them gently at the beginning) and then I would dump the hot dogs in. They learned very quickly that the sooner they got in the crate the sooner they got their hot dogs lol
Now whenever they see the hot dog package come out of the fridge they are scrambling to the basement door trying to be the first one down there to get in their crates and get their hot dogs. I don't even have to say anything anymore lol When I had enough room in the house for their crates upstairs Belle would see me getting hot dogs ready and would just go and stand in her crate awaiting her special treat. As I was cutting them up I would see her peeking out of the crate impatiently... so then it seemed they were waiting on ME instead of me waiting on them lol
At 11 weeks ~ and she went in well until two weeks ago (9 weeks) I suspect that she doesn't really know it. Also, if you've tried many things, then you have most likely moved from one attempt to another without giving any a real chance to take effect, and also causing some confusion.
I have never had a problem with using treats while they are pups, and then eliminating the need for treats as they get older for getting them to go into the crate.
There's also a possibility that she had a bad experience in the crate - the beginning to go in and then stopping, backing out, whining. It could be that she's worried about being locked up or about you leaving, in which case having her go in there while you are home and with the door open can be very beneficial. You also could try different types of crates - some dogs prefer the plastic vari-kennel type, some prefer the wire cages. Sometimes moving the crate can help also.
I have never had a problem with using treats while they are pups, and then eliminating the need for treats as they get older for getting them to go into the crate.
There's also a possibility that she had a bad experience in the crate - the beginning to go in and then stopping, backing out, whining. It could be that she's worried about being locked up or about you leaving, in which case having her go in there while you are home and with the door open can be very beneficial. You also could try different types of crates - some dogs prefer the plastic vari-kennel type, some prefer the wire cages. Sometimes moving the crate can help also.
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i agree with corgi power, dekka, and ado.
you've put the verbal cue with a slow response. You need to retrain until she's doing it reliably from some sort of hand signal, WITHOUT a lure. I HATE lures. Occasionally, VERY occasionally, they can be useful, but almost never.
You need to retrain this behavior. Start over completely. You did it mostly right, just a few little things (dogs are slightly different from marine mammals, and as you said, marine mammals don't get crated).
1. Don't use a verbal clue yet.
2. Don't use a lure. You can keep some treats up on a shelf or in the room or even in a pouch out of her reach, in your reach, but not in your hand. And don't just take out the treats because you're going to be training her. Leave them whereever you're going to put them.
3. If she goes in the crate, c/t and praise. Don't say any commands. Don't attempt to ask/put her in it, just yet. Soon she'll go in just to get your praise.
4. Go over the her crate, open the door, and point inside. She might go in. She might not. If she doesn't, ignore it. If she does, c/t and praise praise praise. If she has gone into the crate now, skip the asterisk.
*-If she does NOT go into the crate at this point when you want her to, take a treat she wants and knows you have, put it in the crate, and close the crate door. This teaches her that if she wants that treat, she better go in when you ask, or the door's closing and the treat's stuck inside.
-she might go sniff the crate, whine, and paw at it. Let her in, leaving the door open. When she comes back out, repeat the hand motion. If she goes in, great. If not, repeat this step.
5. So she's going into the crate on a hand signal. Wonderful. Give the signal again. This time, you'll add a verbal clue. DO NOT USE THE VERBAL CUE UNTIL SHE IS IN THE CRATE!. Once her two front legs and most of her body is in there, say "Crate" (or whatever verbal cue you want, she'll probably go all the way in, if not, that's fine. don't worry about it yet, but next time, don't use the verbal cue until she's in.)
6. Start backing up. Keep using the hand signals and giving the verbal cue when she's in the crate. Then, after she's got a good hang of it, go right to the crate, say "Crate" and point. She should go in at this point. soon you'll easy out the hand signal.
If she lingers, put a high value treat in and shut the door. She's no dummy, she'll realize that she better be speedy.
you've put the verbal cue with a slow response. You need to retrain until she's doing it reliably from some sort of hand signal, WITHOUT a lure. I HATE lures. Occasionally, VERY occasionally, they can be useful, but almost never.
You need to retrain this behavior. Start over completely. You did it mostly right, just a few little things (dogs are slightly different from marine mammals, and as you said, marine mammals don't get crated).
1. Don't use a verbal clue yet.
2. Don't use a lure. You can keep some treats up on a shelf or in the room or even in a pouch out of her reach, in your reach, but not in your hand. And don't just take out the treats because you're going to be training her. Leave them whereever you're going to put them.
3. If she goes in the crate, c/t and praise. Don't say any commands. Don't attempt to ask/put her in it, just yet. Soon she'll go in just to get your praise.
4. Go over the her crate, open the door, and point inside. She might go in. She might not. If she doesn't, ignore it. If she does, c/t and praise praise praise. If she has gone into the crate now, skip the asterisk.
*-If she does NOT go into the crate at this point when you want her to, take a treat she wants and knows you have, put it in the crate, and close the crate door. This teaches her that if she wants that treat, she better go in when you ask, or the door's closing and the treat's stuck inside.
-she might go sniff the crate, whine, and paw at it. Let her in, leaving the door open. When she comes back out, repeat the hand motion. If she goes in, great. If not, repeat this step.
5. So she's going into the crate on a hand signal. Wonderful. Give the signal again. This time, you'll add a verbal clue. DO NOT USE THE VERBAL CUE UNTIL SHE IS IN THE CRATE!. Once her two front legs and most of her body is in there, say "Crate" (or whatever verbal cue you want, she'll probably go all the way in, if not, that's fine. don't worry about it yet, but next time, don't use the verbal cue until she's in.)
6. Start backing up. Keep using the hand signals and giving the verbal cue when she's in the crate. Then, after she's got a good hang of it, go right to the crate, say "Crate" and point. She should go in at this point. soon you'll easy out the hand signal.
If she lingers, put a high value treat in and shut the door. She's no dummy, she'll realize that she better be speedy.
Milo, some of your points are correct but sorry I don't agree with all of them.
First point, the point of shaping a behaviour and adding a verbal, is that the verbal isn't added until the dog/pup is 100% reliable and its after they are offering the desired behaviour first working to 100%, then adding the hand cue.
Pointing into the crate is prompting.
Putting the reward into the crate and closing it is luring.
But all this depends on how a person wants to train and what works for them.
It's like running agility with food in your hand, big problem if you plan to compete. It's also dangerous with the contact equipment. The same as always having a baited target at the end of the equipment or the end of a sequence. Not good all the time and should only be used very carefully and once the dog knows the behaviour.
First point, the point of shaping a behaviour and adding a verbal, is that the verbal isn't added until the dog/pup is 100% reliable and its after they are offering the desired behaviour first working to 100%, then adding the hand cue.
Pointing into the crate is prompting.
Putting the reward into the crate and closing it is luring.
But all this depends on how a person wants to train and what works for them.
It's like running agility with food in your hand, big problem if you plan to compete. It's also dangerous with the contact equipment. The same as always having a baited target at the end of the equipment or the end of a sequence. Not good all the time and should only be used very carefully and once the dog knows the behaviour.
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Hi everyone,
Thanks for your thoughts...
Corgipower, she was kenneling great at 9 weeks and continued perfectly until a couple days ago, so she was doing the behavior on command for about 2 weeks...sorry if I confused the time frames.
milos mommy, you've got some good ideas there I may give a go. I got a biscut ball last night and that seemed to help (kinda like your hotdogs sparks19!). I don't believe she's had an (unknown to me) bad experience in the crate as she is more than content to go in there quite often when I'm not asking her to. If she had a bad experience, I believe she would be hesitant to go in at all. She appears to just not like the idea that she may be locked in, even tho I vary as to if she is or isn't and for the duration. As for reinforcing slow responses, she has gotten only a crumb of treat when she eventually goes in, as opposed to a larger treat when she goes in on request, as I don't think not reinforcing the eventual behavior is beneficial (and there are lots of training threads that discuss asking for a behavior, waiting however long and rewarding when it is completed). I do vary the amount of reinforcement depending on her response time. If I have to put her in there, she gets nothing.
As you said adojrts, it depends on the person and what works for them. Your concepts work well for you with agility. This is a great board with lots of ideas and concepts, which makes it a great resource for 'what can I do/try now' problems. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and will try some of the ideas suggested. She seemed to like the biscut ball, so that, paired with some of the ideas will hopefully get her back to kenneling in a prompt matter. Will keep you posted!
Thanks for your thoughts...
Corgipower, she was kenneling great at 9 weeks and continued perfectly until a couple days ago, so she was doing the behavior on command for about 2 weeks...sorry if I confused the time frames.
milos mommy, you've got some good ideas there I may give a go. I got a biscut ball last night and that seemed to help (kinda like your hotdogs sparks19!). I don't believe she's had an (unknown to me) bad experience in the crate as she is more than content to go in there quite often when I'm not asking her to. If she had a bad experience, I believe she would be hesitant to go in at all. She appears to just not like the idea that she may be locked in, even tho I vary as to if she is or isn't and for the duration. As for reinforcing slow responses, she has gotten only a crumb of treat when she eventually goes in, as opposed to a larger treat when she goes in on request, as I don't think not reinforcing the eventual behavior is beneficial (and there are lots of training threads that discuss asking for a behavior, waiting however long and rewarding when it is completed). I do vary the amount of reinforcement depending on her response time. If I have to put her in there, she gets nothing.
As you said adojrts, it depends on the person and what works for them. Your concepts work well for you with agility. This is a great board with lots of ideas and concepts, which makes it a great resource for 'what can I do/try now' problems. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and will try some of the ideas suggested. She seemed to like the biscut ball, so that, paired with some of the ideas will hopefully get her back to kenneling in a prompt matter. Will keep you posted!
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If she didn't know the command at all, i'd say treat every time.
If she did, however, and you want to teach her to do it faster, you only reward faster performances.
Ado...i'm suprised, you add hand signals AFTER learning verbal cues? I find that very strange.
I wouldn't consider putting a treat in the crate "luring". Luring to me is actually holding the treat out for the dog to sniff/follow. I'm under the impression the OP is putting treats in the crate anyway for the dog to enjoy while she's gone, and that once the OP left the area and the dog was convinced she wouldn't be shut in, she'd go get the treat. The OPs trying to get her to improve her speed of performing the command, and shutting the crate door after the treat is in there will teach the dog she's got limited time to get in and get her snack. Right?
If she did, however, and you want to teach her to do it faster, you only reward faster performances.
Ado...i'm suprised, you add hand signals AFTER learning verbal cues? I find that very strange.
I wouldn't consider putting a treat in the crate "luring". Luring to me is actually holding the treat out for the dog to sniff/follow. I'm under the impression the OP is putting treats in the crate anyway for the dog to enjoy while she's gone, and that once the OP left the area and the dog was convinced she wouldn't be shut in, she'd go get the treat. The OPs trying to get her to improve her speed of performing the command, and shutting the crate door after the treat is in there will teach the dog she's got limited time to get in and get her snack. Right?
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Hi again,
milos mommy, your basically right with one exception...I never leave a treat in there for her to go get after I leave. If she goes in on her own while I'm in the immediate vicinity of the kennel, she gets treated (not as much as if she goes in quickly after I ask). She does have toys in her kennel that she is free to get out/put in as she pleases (all but the biscuit ball, that's strictly for closed door sessions). She does get treats to enjoy if she gets left in the kennel (biscuit ball), and I am trying to work on her speed of going in the crate. Giving her a limited time to go in before shutting the door may work...may give that a try as well.
milos mommy, your basically right with one exception...I never leave a treat in there for her to go get after I leave. If she goes in on her own while I'm in the immediate vicinity of the kennel, she gets treated (not as much as if she goes in quickly after I ask). She does have toys in her kennel that she is free to get out/put in as she pleases (all but the biscuit ball, that's strictly for closed door sessions). She does get treats to enjoy if she gets left in the kennel (biscuit ball), and I am trying to work on her speed of going in the crate. Giving her a limited time to go in before shutting the door may work...may give that a try as well.
Milo;
No I guess I didn't make that clear, sorry.
The verbal is the last thing we add after the dog/pup knows the behaviour 100%.
Think of it this way, if you meet a Russian child that does not speak English and we don't speak Russian.
You can stand in front of that child and say 'Sit' a million times and they wont know what you want or what you are saying (of course they are standing at first lol). The person trying to get them to sit, could repeat and repeat, they could esculate and start yelling or speaking loudly etc, they could even 'correct' that child for not 'sitting', but that child doesn't know what is being asked.
Finally, that child may just sit down for what ever reason and if at that time you said 'sit', they would then start to understand. Now if that child still wasn't sure, the next time they may start to sit but look to the other person, if that person said sit as that child was starting to sit or was moving towards the chair, they maybe confused as to what 'sit' really was.............was it the chair? was it moving their butt towards the chair in a downward position or was it actually sitting on the chair? Or did sit mean sitting in different loactions on different objects? So it would take a while to teach that child that 'sit' isn't an object but an action. Does that make sense?
This is were it can be confusing to a dog, a dog can't understand as quickly as that child would. And they can get very confused as to what specifically we are asking for, if we have not been very careful to teach it clearly and with a very fine criteria, it is usually at that point that they start to offer other behaviours or half sits, downs etc. They also offer behaviours that they do know and know very well in hopes that it will please us. They try everything that they know in hopes that they hit upon the right one. And when an animal starts that, it proves that they really don't know what has been trained and they have regressed, but the sweet thing about it is, once you make sure you are being very clear and specific and you train through a regression, then the animal usually truely knows the behaviour.
There are three levels of learning and it doesn't matter if its a dog, horse or person etc, those levels are Progression, Regression and Plateaus. All those levels should be expected when learning, teaching or training. They also shift and change. People blow it all the time when their dog hits a regression or a plateau, they train more, they push the dog when they should be backing of and just working on what the does knows or worse they change how they have been training etc and worse yet they get frustrated or mad at the dog which does the most damage of all.
Hope that wasn't to muddled lol
Lynn
This happens all the time in dog training, we are not clear and specific.
No I guess I didn't make that clear, sorry.
The verbal is the last thing we add after the dog/pup knows the behaviour 100%.
Think of it this way, if you meet a Russian child that does not speak English and we don't speak Russian.
You can stand in front of that child and say 'Sit' a million times and they wont know what you want or what you are saying (of course they are standing at first lol). The person trying to get them to sit, could repeat and repeat, they could esculate and start yelling or speaking loudly etc, they could even 'correct' that child for not 'sitting', but that child doesn't know what is being asked.
Finally, that child may just sit down for what ever reason and if at that time you said 'sit', they would then start to understand. Now if that child still wasn't sure, the next time they may start to sit but look to the other person, if that person said sit as that child was starting to sit or was moving towards the chair, they maybe confused as to what 'sit' really was.............was it the chair? was it moving their butt towards the chair in a downward position or was it actually sitting on the chair? Or did sit mean sitting in different loactions on different objects? So it would take a while to teach that child that 'sit' isn't an object but an action. Does that make sense?
This is were it can be confusing to a dog, a dog can't understand as quickly as that child would. And they can get very confused as to what specifically we are asking for, if we have not been very careful to teach it clearly and with a very fine criteria, it is usually at that point that they start to offer other behaviours or half sits, downs etc. They also offer behaviours that they do know and know very well in hopes that it will please us. They try everything that they know in hopes that they hit upon the right one. And when an animal starts that, it proves that they really don't know what has been trained and they have regressed, but the sweet thing about it is, once you make sure you are being very clear and specific and you train through a regression, then the animal usually truely knows the behaviour.
There are three levels of learning and it doesn't matter if its a dog, horse or person etc, those levels are Progression, Regression and Plateaus. All those levels should be expected when learning, teaching or training. They also shift and change. People blow it all the time when their dog hits a regression or a plateau, they train more, they push the dog when they should be backing of and just working on what the does knows or worse they change how they have been training etc and worse yet they get frustrated or mad at the dog which does the most damage of all.
Hope that wasn't to muddled lol
Lynn
This happens all the time in dog training, we are not clear and specific.
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No, not muddled, i understood perfectly. I know where the vocal commands fit in (sorry after you typed that all up i say it...) but what about the hand signals? The hand signals i use tend to sort of "help" the dog accomplish the task, so i don't understand how you would wait until the behavior was 100% before using hand signals...how would you even know the behavior was 100%?
or were you not even talking about using hand signals after the dog is 100%? I don't think it matters much as we're basically on the same page here, the only thing i'm confused about is this:
I guess i'm kind of shoving prompting and hand signaling into the same thing which is wrong and probably confusing.
For example, i taught Milo to roll over.
I was kind of considering when i gently pushed him onto his side as a hand signal, but that's more of a prompt. So tell me if this is right:
1. Prompting causes behavior causes c/t (me touching his shoulder to guide him over = prompt)
2. He's now showing the behavior reliably, i'm not even finishing the prompt when he offers the behavior (i move to touch his shoulder and he rolls over)
3. We add the hand signal. I move in the manner i would to prompt but as he starts to roll i do the hand signal, which is different from the prompt.
4. Once he is doing the command with the hand signal 100%, i add the verbal cue AS he is rolling over. Then i begin saying "Roll Over" at the same time i hand signal.
5. Now i stop using the hand signal, simply using the verbal cue, and he will understand.
That's how i did it, how (if you would) would you do it differently?
or were you not even talking about using hand signals after the dog is 100%? I don't think it matters much as we're basically on the same page here, the only thing i'm confused about is this:
I guess i'm kind of shoving prompting and hand signaling into the same thing which is wrong and probably confusing.
For example, i taught Milo to roll over.
I was kind of considering when i gently pushed him onto his side as a hand signal, but that's more of a prompt. So tell me if this is right:
1. Prompting causes behavior causes c/t (me touching his shoulder to guide him over = prompt)
2. He's now showing the behavior reliably, i'm not even finishing the prompt when he offers the behavior (i move to touch his shoulder and he rolls over)
3. We add the hand signal. I move in the manner i would to prompt but as he starts to roll i do the hand signal, which is different from the prompt.
4. Once he is doing the command with the hand signal 100%, i add the verbal cue AS he is rolling over. Then i begin saying "Roll Over" at the same time i hand signal.
5. Now i stop using the hand signal, simply using the verbal cue, and he will understand.
That's how i did it, how (if you would) would you do it differently?
Milosmommy>> that is called modeling, it works well with some dogs, and almost not at all with others. Roll over is I think the only thing I have used it for. Usually shaping is faster and more reliable.
I never ad the cue till the dog is offering the behaviour reliably on its own. (I don't want my dog to ever think that cue is ever irrelevant)
I never ad the cue till the dog is offering the behaviour reliably on its own. (I don't want my dog to ever think that cue is ever irrelevant)
Milo lol, hey no worries. I often have a hard time putting into text what I mean and making myself understood lol.
The first thing I should point out is I am using a clicker and I am shaping desired behaviours.
So I would start by c/r for eye contact with a high rate of reinforcement. This also teaches the pup/dog as to how the clicker works.
It is also common for dogs/pups to sit while maintaining eye contact, so I tend to move around alot or release them to go play etc and then c/r when they make eye contact. For sitting I don't make eye contact with them at first because I don't want them to be confused as to what they are being c/r for.
When they sit, c/r, high rate, then move without calling them (although they always follow lol) stop and when they sit, c/r. The pup/dog has to learn duration for them to fully understand that it is the sit that is being rewarded.
I introduce the hand signal when they are sitting, not as a cue to sit. As the dog progresses the hand signal is given sooner until the dog is responding to the cue. Once I know the pup/dog is responding to the hand signal with duration and some distance AND with a variable reward and is doing this at nothing less than 80% (but the true goal is 100%), I then add the verbal along with the hand cue, but the hand cue is given first, then when the pup dog is sitting say the verbal, as the dog progresses, the verbal is given sooner until the dog will comply on a verbal only, then we work on the dog responding to either the verbal or a hand cue.
When you push Milo over that is molding, the same as pushing the bum down if you train the sit that way.
Prompting is typically when you give a secondary cue or command when the dog hesitates.
In the situation of teaching him a roll over I don't think I would teach it much different, although I may lure it a bit at first but fade the lure quickly.
You could shape the roll over as well, but it would probably be faster and easier to at first to lure and prompt them. Now if you have a dog that loves to roll around alot, you could mark the rollover everytime you saw your dog do it and reward, until they started to offer it. Then progress to a hand cue and then the verbal.
Lynn
The first thing I should point out is I am using a clicker and I am shaping desired behaviours.
So I would start by c/r for eye contact with a high rate of reinforcement. This also teaches the pup/dog as to how the clicker works.
It is also common for dogs/pups to sit while maintaining eye contact, so I tend to move around alot or release them to go play etc and then c/r when they make eye contact. For sitting I don't make eye contact with them at first because I don't want them to be confused as to what they are being c/r for.
When they sit, c/r, high rate, then move without calling them (although they always follow lol) stop and when they sit, c/r. The pup/dog has to learn duration for them to fully understand that it is the sit that is being rewarded.
I introduce the hand signal when they are sitting, not as a cue to sit. As the dog progresses the hand signal is given sooner until the dog is responding to the cue. Once I know the pup/dog is responding to the hand signal with duration and some distance AND with a variable reward and is doing this at nothing less than 80% (but the true goal is 100%), I then add the verbal along with the hand cue, but the hand cue is given first, then when the pup dog is sitting say the verbal, as the dog progresses, the verbal is given sooner until the dog will comply on a verbal only, then we work on the dog responding to either the verbal or a hand cue.
When you push Milo over that is molding, the same as pushing the bum down if you train the sit that way.
Prompting is typically when you give a secondary cue or command when the dog hesitates.
In the situation of teaching him a roll over I don't think I would teach it much different, although I may lure it a bit at first but fade the lure quickly.
You could shape the roll over as well, but it would probably be faster and easier to at first to lure and prompt them. Now if you have a dog that loves to roll around alot, you could mark the rollover everytime you saw your dog do it and reward, until they started to offer it. Then progress to a hand cue and then the verbal.
Lynn
Isn't it possible that the smart little pup thought through all the contingencies and decided going in the crate is a bad risk? Even if she is only locked in 1% of the time, she may still decide it's not worth the risk for a hot dog (or whatever). So, you either have to find a reward that overcomes the risk or a way to make the behavior non-optional. I'm a big fan of the beef marrow bone in the crate myself. It's a sure winner with the vast majority of dogs. "Jackpot" her with a surprise marrow bone in the crate a few times (and never let her have it outside of the crate) and you will go a long way towards changing her mindset. But, for certain smart, willful dogs this may not ever be enough to complete eliminate the second guessing calculation you are seeing. It's always a cost/benefit analysis.
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Sch3dana,
Hello, I think you explained my problem
my question to you would be, how to expedite her entrance into the crate...if I wait her out, she will go in eventually, however, I do not want to reinforce slow response...but I don't want to totally ignore the eventual response (and she is quite the smart little pup being border collie/blue heeler!) Jackpot would work if she would ever go in immediately upon asking, however, what do you suggest as some tricks to get her to go in faster so I can jackpot her?
Hello, I think you explained my problem
my question to you would be, how to expedite her entrance into the crate...if I wait her out, she will go in eventually, however, I do not want to reinforce slow response...but I don't want to totally ignore the eventual response (and she is quite the smart little pup being border collie/blue heeler!) Jackpot would work if she would ever go in immediately upon asking, however, what do you suggest as some tricks to get her to go in faster so I can jackpot her?
I honestly would not worry about her speed of entrance for the first few jackpots. The idea is not to use the jackpot in the traditional sense as a reinforcement for the behavior of quickly entering the crate, but as a classically conditioned "my crate=marrow bone!" association. Don't give things that high-value anywhere else. It will not be long before the connection is made: that place is where I get amazing things, so I will go there as fast as possible so I can get my amazing thing as fast as possible.
I always always always (maybe my dogs have me whipped--a distinct possibility) leave very high value items when I put the dogs in confinement. Always. It's not about operant conditioning as much as it's about Pavlov. They really almost never get high value goodies anywhere else than their confinement areas, and always in the context of me being about to walk out the door. So now the very act of me, say, putting on my coat, or going to the freezer to get their Kongs, or putting my shoes on, sends them flying and tripping over one another to get to their confinement areas. I use the same words as they're on their way every time, to make a verbal association, but because the stuff they get when they go there is so amazingly good, and they don't get stuff that good at any other time, they really FLY to get to their spots and I've never had to "train" in a traditional sense a response. It's automatic.
I always always always (maybe my dogs have me whipped--a distinct possibility) leave very high value items when I put the dogs in confinement. Always. It's not about operant conditioning as much as it's about Pavlov. They really almost never get high value goodies anywhere else than their confinement areas, and always in the context of me being about to walk out the door. So now the very act of me, say, putting on my coat, or going to the freezer to get their Kongs, or putting my shoes on, sends them flying and tripping over one another to get to their confinement areas. I use the same words as they're on their way every time, to make a verbal association, but because the stuff they get when they go there is so amazingly good, and they don't get stuff that good at any other time, they really FLY to get to their spots and I've never had to "train" in a traditional sense a response. It's automatic.
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Hi houndlove,
Hoepfully my little one will catch on to that...that's what I'm trying to accomplish with biscuit ball and another chewy (she goes looking around the house looking for it)...hopefully she'll put 2-n-2 together and realize that she gets those special items when she's in the crate...and hopefully not do what she's doing now (which I think sch3dana is possibly right) keep your fingers crossed for me!!
Hoepfully my little one will catch on to that...that's what I'm trying to accomplish with biscuit ball and another chewy (she goes looking around the house looking for it)...hopefully she'll put 2-n-2 together and realize that she gets those special items when she's in the crate...and hopefully not do what she's doing now (which I think sch3dana is possibly right) keep your fingers crossed for me!!