Puppy Mills?

Beauceron · Dec 23, 2005

These are websites to kennles that people have sent me (I am on the Bernese Mtn dog breeder referal for my club) when they wanted to know if the kennles were good to buy from. These are the ones that I thought were more than likley puppy mills, what do you all think?

This one claims they are “not a puppy mill” but they breed their females EVERY heat cycle, because it’s “healthier” for them, they won’t allow people to visit the kennels and they won’t post pictures of the mother dogs.

http://www.mixedbreedpups.com/

These people sell their adult dogs in “breeding pairs” as well as having many breeds/pups available.

http://www.bonniescamelotkennels.com

Dozens available, many “designer dogs” they boast having pups available all the time for the buyers convenience…

http://www.pups4kids.com

Many breeds, again, no pics of adult dogs, in FAQ it suggests taking two pups to keep each other company, any dog trainer will let you know taking two puppies is NOT a good idea!

http://www.wildwindkennel.net

h

ttp://www.moorescountrykennels.com/breeds.htm
Take a look at the backround of the pics of the adult dogs... and take a good look at the black Boxer... Pit mix? any boxer ppl want to put their opinion in?

http://www.sugarmountainhome.com/kennels/pyrenees/sugarmountainpyrenees.htm
they have several breeds, but I highlighted the great Pyr, look at their stud dog Bo, about the middle of tha page... is that entropian or what?

Mikey27X834 · Dec 23, 2005

As soon you hear stupid annoying names like Schnoodle and Shih Poo, that should make you decide they are puppy mills.

Beauceron · Dec 23, 2005

The mixing breeds thing makes me so mad, how can one of those people call themselves a responsible breeder? According to the Labrador Retriver Club of America (as Well as the Poodle, Shih Tzu, Yorkie, Schnauzer, and Pug national breed clubs) all say that they are opposed to these breed mixings. I'm sure there are others as well, I just havn't read or head about it yet.

If your a responsible breeder you should be following your national breed clubs code of ethics...

Saje · Dec 23, 2005

I didn't go to all of the links but if what you said about them is true than I agree with you 100% and they shouldn't be recommended.

http://www.moorescountrykennels.com/order.htm

WAY too many dogs to have any sort of quality.

Do you ever email them and pretend you are interested in a puppy? Ask for health checks, criteria.... that's amusing. Use an email address that isn't your primary!

Beauceron · Dec 26, 2005

A few of them have Bernese Mtn Dogs in the kennle, and it breaks my heart to see them in there, your email thing is a good idea!

bubbatd · Dec 26, 2005

I'm throwing up !!!! I requested a mix... just to see what they come up with !

Gempress · Dec 26, 2005

Oh yuck. All backyard breeders. Sickening to see.

Mach1girl · Dec 27, 2005

Frankly, puppy mills make me literally sick! I have a peke that I bought from Petland 3 years ago. He was already 4 months old, and of course I paid bukoo bucks for him out of pity. The dog has the worst skin allergies you have ever ever seen. He chews himself night and day day and night. He is raw and bloody. His skin smells and stays constantly infected with staph. He must be mentally disabled as he acts as if none of this bothers him, of course this is how he has grown up. The vets are stumped as nothing works for him. He has had so many steroids he should look like King Kong. I wouldn't be wurprised if he weren't immune to all antibiotics by now. We have even treated him with horse medicine for rain rot, as this did not work either. By all means, he should be put out of his misery, and would be if it weren't for my son. Now my son knows the problem, and agrees, but at 13 he is not willing to give him up yet.

All the while, I feel guilty gor giving $$ and buying into the whole puppy mill process. I knew it at the time. But what happens to those dogs that arent sold??? I didn't want that to happen to him!

I currently have a breeding at home(No-not with the puppy mill dog, he was also born w/out testicale dropped, so he was nutered at birth) but another dog. I am however not a puppy mill. I breed to better the breed, and only once per female- I will never do this to a dog-never!

RedyreRottweilers · Dec 27, 2005

What breed are you breeding?

What criteria do you use to select breeding stock to ensure you are breeding to "better the breed?"

Dogs are not neutered at birth. Nor are most born with descended testicles. In some toy breeds they may not come out of the abdominal cavity until 8 to 12 weeks of age.l

I'm wondering what you feed the Peke? Sometimes a change in diet can radically improve allergy reactions.

Mach1girl · Dec 28, 2005

The food has been changed a million times. We went from wheat free, to beef free, to chicken free, to wheat, beef and chicken gree. He has been on vet recommended foods. Once he was taken off all foods and put on a liquid supplement, didn't work.

The vet has also mentioned that he may just be "schitzophranic". It does seem more like a habit. We cover him with a shirt, and he will look soooo depressed due to the fact he cannot chew. It's horrible.

As far as his nutering, this is what the paperwork said from Petland. Whether it is true or not, I do not care. At least he is nutered. My other peke is as well. One of my APBT is spayed, the other is pregnant.

What do I look for to better the breed....Hmmmmm, a long list of things. Temperment tests, no skin allergies, excellent PROVEN pedigrees,. I aim for quality show dogs. Conformation and temperment are number one. I understand that the whole litter will not be of this quality, and I have made preparations to keep any pup not sold for show purposes. Contracts, OMG, I could go on. I will be back shortly, got to go to work. Rest assured, this has been a long time in the planning.....

Fran27 · Dec 28, 2005

The problem might be the vet recommended food honestly... Or it might not be helping. Vets are totally clueless about nutrition and are actually paid to support some brands that sell really bad quality food (mostly Science Diet). I think you should go to the food section and post there, you'll get very good advice.

You seem like a good breeder! You have any pictures?

Mach1girl · Dec 28, 2005

OK......This is MY problem. First let me start by giving some background:
I have owned APBTs for nearly 15 years. I KNOW the breed. I am used to and expect the "surprises". I have dealt with aggression issues, health issues, genetic issues, etc.ALMOST everything, and I say almost due to the fact I dont think anyone ever will learn 100% about a breed. Always learning! My dogs ARE my children. I have raised pitbulls in daycare settings. Of course, knowing much more nowadays, I wouldnt condone this, but I have done it none the less.
I am a very strong activest against BSL. I march, I petition, I fight and stand up for my breed. I educate, I prove, etc. I am the active one in my family, and I try to teach my children the same. I have spent years learning, studying, everything from pedigrees, genetic issues, to determining what kind of litters what will throw when bred. For an entire year, I have been in search for the perfect stud for my Dixie. I have found him. Great bloodline, excellent temper, penn hip tested, good size and great conformation. Dixie is also excellent conformation. But I know, that the litter will not be 100% exc. conf. dogs, and I am prepared to spay/nuter every one that will go to a home as just a "pet". Contracts were written by a lawyer months before this breeding. I am ready to go!

My problem.....Dixies age. Now before you get in a huff....I DID NOT BREED HER! I know that she should be at least 2 before breeding. I know this. She needed to be penn hip tested amongst other tests to assure health. So, for Christmas, I get a receipt from hubby for an AI performed on December 15th and another on December 17th. He states that he knew I wanted to do this litter. BUT HE DIDNT KNOW I WAS WAITING UNTIL SHE WAS 2!!!
So, I proced to take her to the vet. I meet w/ vet and a dr of science who has retired and devoted his life to studying pedigrees, bloodlines, genetics, etc of dog breeds. After a long study, there are no genitic problems in any of my dogs background for 14 years(Nothing serious) as I know the minimum risk of carrying problems if still 7%, she has come from a correct as possible line, and I shouldn't worry!
Needless to say, she is now still only 16 months old! But, the vet assires me he will be with me every step of the way through this, and that her health is strong, her birth canal is HUGE and her hips are great, her age will assist her with the delivery process, and everything will be ok.
I was pissed, of course, bt also have been married 13 years next month and we are the best couple anyone could ask for. I know he was just trying to please me, not realizing the risks. So I am not mad. I feel ok about this. And Dixie will be fixed after this litter(maybe)
So that is our screw up. I am just happy to say that all is well so far. Hell, I dont even know for sure she is pregnant yet. But we all make mistakes, and learn from them. We are not considering ourselves "breeders" per say. And I am thankful I am as educated on the breed as I am. I will post pics later when I get home.
Please dont bash me, as I am doing what is right. What would you do in my shoes(Realistically...) Taks what comes your way, and move on.

Fran27 · Dec 28, 2005

Oh that sucks. I don't know what I would do in this case. How likely is she to have hip problems?

Mach1girl · Dec 28, 2005

Not likely at all. None in her 14 year pedigree of champs. I have also a list of many littermates, approx 75% of them, and they are fine as well.

Also, I beleong to another forum, the people at this forum do not know. I have been a member for a year. I thought we were like family.....until now. See supposedly "true" lovers of this breed do not believe in breeding. They think there are enough problems with the breed let alone breeding them to contribute! I understand their piont of view. I have had to on several occasions stand up for myself and dictate yet again why I plan on breeding one day. As you see, I have all the right reasons! I have not told them, they will shun me and slam me. That is why I am here. If I need assistance, I hope I can count on you guys to help. Like I said, I know alot, but I am not superwoman!

Anyway, most likely no problems with hips or anything else. So I am relieved in that aspect. She should hold out ok. So we should be all good.

Now I just have to wait for the "signs"

Fran27 · Dec 28, 2005

Keep us posted. If the vet thinks she's physically ready it should be ok I think.

And I understand what you say about people saying there should not be more people breeding, we get those all the time here too. Personally, I think it's a good thing when it's done correctly. And you really seem to know what you're doing, so no problem on my end!

RedyreRottweilers · Dec 28, 2005

Since the inheritance mode of canine HD is unknown, even with a very solid pedigree, there is ALWAYS the risk of producing dogs with HD. About all that is known about the inheritance of CHD is that it has a polygenic mode of transmission, meaning that there are MANY genes involved in it's inheritance and expression.

If MY husband had the audacity to AI a 16 mos old bitch behind my back, he would be living somewhere else immediately, and all the puppies would be placed on strict spay/neuter agreements if I did not cull them all at birth.

Have you had preliminary films done on this bitch? Where are her littermates? Have they had any hip scoring done? Is the bitch or the sire titled in any way? What hip ratings did her parents and their littermates have? What do APBT people commonly screen for in addition to hips? Eyes? Elbows? Hearts? Patellas?

Something smells funny here to me.

RedyreRottweilers · Dec 28, 2005

Do you use OFA to screen your hip films?

What is a 14 year pedigree?

How on earth did you come up with a dog who has had every dog in the pedigree screened for that many generations?

The sire is only 16 months as well?

No pedigrees on your website, so one can't do much research.

What health testing or titles do you have on the 2YO male you are standing at stud? What do you require of bitches who will be visiting him? Do you have a stud dog contract anywhere I could look at?

Mach1girl · Dec 28, 2005

APBTs are commonly tested in temperment, soundness of mind(working dogs) hips and sight. These are the main tests performed prior to breeding. Dixie has had no tests for the hips, although both parents did, and ancestors on down the line. Dixie has a "fault" I consider it a fault, but it is not really considered a fault because of the drive and nature of the breed. It is her animal aggressivness. She lives w/ 4 other dogs, and is fine, but a strange dog is a threat. She has not been temperment tested per say, she is not a working dog, but amongst strangers every day and tons of children, her temper is fine. Her mind is sound and her overall mind is stable, I know this because she has saved my life!(Another story)
Sire has been thoroughly tested. I understand there are no guarantees on the HD. But it is NOT likely.
Sire is GCH, mom has no titles, due to her animal aggressivness. BUT has been identified as "conformationally correct as can be" has proven herself on the agility course. This she learned in puppy school when I planned on showing her, but again, was curbed due to her animal aggressivness.
Animal aggressivness. This is OUTSIDE the home. Any dog is welcome in the front door.

Another thing, my husband will not go anywhere. He was meaning to do the right thing. He had no idea how sturdy I was on waiting7 more months. He just knew this is what I wanted.

Lastly, something sounds funny??? It's a good thing I can act like a lady! I think I'd better stay away from that remark!

And every dog in her pedigree is titled. Mostly weight pulls and agility. But also several Champions. Even a closely related Superdog. Same as the sire.

I'm not gonna fret, I think all will be ok.

Her littermates are scattered throughout the country. Out of 9, with one passed(didn't survive the flight to Canada) I know where 6 are. And have contacted them all.

RedyreRottweilers · Dec 28, 2005

Mach1girl said:

What sort of working are you talking about with APBTs? Weight pulling?

Do people not do preliminary hip films in APBTs? I have my puppies done at 12 mos and than again at 24 months before any breeding.

Does your bitch have a current CERF number? How about the sire?
Does he have a hip number? Is he titled?
How does he crossfault with your bitch?
What are the strong points and weaknesses of both dogs?
Why do you feel he complements her for breeding?

With all due respect, dog or animal aggressiveness should not be considered a fault in an APBT of correct temperament. It is something that people should expect to deal with in this breed. Dogs should be trained and socialized so as to be under control. Even highly dog aggressive animals can and are successful in the show ring, but it takes early and proper and consistent training.

All dogs have faults. Some would be considered more serious than others. One should know every single fault and weakness a dog has and every single strength and virtue before considering breeding, a breeding partner should be carefully selected who does not share the same faults, and who DOES share the same virtues.

In addition the entire pedigree must be considered re: faults and virtues.

Ok. So she has not been hip tested, she has not been temperament tested, she has not been working titled because she is not a working dog, you can't show her in breed because she is too dog aggressive, and yet you have her bred at 16 months. I'm wondering, how does your husband sneak off with both dogs and have them AId at the vet without your knowing it? And why an AI with APBTs? Have either of them been tested for Brucellosis?

For exactly what has the sire been thoroughly tested?

How do you feel that it is not likely since you are using a bitch of completely unknown hip status for breeding?

So despite appropriate and early training, this bitch is so animal aggressive you cannot show her.

This sounds like something we want to breed, now doesn't it? What happens when 50% of her puppies have the same traits, and the owners can't take them off their property?

So your husband has no clue that a 16 mos old bitch is still a puppy and should not be bred? Yet he knows enough about breeding to breed her on the right day(s) and get her to the vet to be AI'd?

**nodding** riiiiiiight.

Are you not suspicious of why a dog would die in flight? I would be.

I would think you would be really proud of such a nice pedigree and would have it up on your website. You can build one for free at http://www.sitstay.com It's very easy, check it out.

I would also think if the sire is a Gr. CH you would have that title in front of his name on your webpage, along with his health clearances and any other titles.

Mach1girl · Dec 28, 2005

Questions, questions..makes me wonder...Are you interested in purchasing one of my puppies? Because we can work ot a deal or so on one. I mean, I do not have to justify a dang thing to you. I gave up information voluntarily. Not to be question, accused, etc. I am very proud of my dogs pedigree. I am in the process of creating it at the very site you mentioned. Last night, at about 8 pm, I started creating the web site. I ordered it from Yahoo about an hour earlier, and by the time I published just one page, it was 10pm. It is a brand new, not even 24 hour old site.
Kato is not my dog. He is the stud we have been in contact with all along.
My hubby was on vacation that week, and one of the AI days happened to fall on an ovulation day, the other did not. This is how I did not know about it.
You know, no matter where you go, what site or forum you visit, you have always got your know it alls. I know, you are gonna ask "at what point did I state that I know it all??" You didn't. But by insinuating, questioning so in depth with no real interest except hoping to catch me saying something wrong, is showing that you want to be "on top" To prove a point. What's your point? That the breeding shouldn't have happened? I agree, but it did, and here we are.I came here to make friends. Whats done is done. If I need help, I was expecting to be able to help. But i can see that I will just get"I knew its" thrown back at me. Seems to me YOU have got a slight human aggressivness to ya.

You should be alittle lenient considering I stated I am not a BYB. I PLAN on keeping all pups that are not sold for working/show purposes, and all pups sold as family pets will be altered before they go at my expense.
As far as him complimenting her?? He has the best temperment, even with other animals. By the way. Dixie hates othe animals....but you must have missed the part where she loves them IN HER HOME! So that's not all that bad. So her minus there and his big plus, should be ok. What else, both are great conformation, so the pups should be good there, from bite, to eyes, to pigmentation, to angulation, etc. She is allergic to chlorine. We had her tested, He was tested and no allergies. Agagin, her minus and his big plus. The brains are brilliant. You'd think she were human in smartness....her plus, he is a little thick between the ears..
Anyway, here I go explaining myself yet again. To someone who obviously knows nothing of MY breed, but insists I am the worng one.

Ya know, if I need help, or have any questions, I guess Ill just ask, and if I get help, thank you. If not, no loss. Too bad for people like you, there could be alot to learn from either side. I just asked for someone to talk with.

Thanks Franz(I think!!)

Puppy Mills?

New Member

New Member

New Member

Island dweller

New Member

Moderator

Walks into Mordor

New Member

RedyreRottweilers

Guest

New Member

Active Member

New Member

Active Member

New Member

Active Member

RedyreRottweilers

Guest

RedyreRottweilers

Guest

New Member

RedyreRottweilers

Guest

New Member