Prong collar
- Thread starter Gallien Jacks
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Colin, you make it sound like a weapon of TORTURE. Any training tool can damage a dog's trachea, and most of the other collar types (ESPECIALLY choke) do far more damage. Those prongs are not sharp, and I wouldn't buy ones that were sharpened. Skin damage... possible. If the dog had sensitive skin (as Doberluv mentioned) or you were yanking.
I really like prong collars, to tell you guys the truth. I think they're attractive, and I bought one for myself as a "necklace." I like how it feels on my neck, even fitted tightly it's not uncomfortable to me; and I don't have thick skin, lots of muscle, and half a pound of fur there. *shrug*
I agree with the posters who have already said it.. I think it is a training tool that can be used effectively on many dogs (although I'm sure is not right for all dogs, no training tool is) if used knowledgeably and responsibly. It's not some freakish weapon of torture.. when it comes down to it, I would much prefer a prong on my neck than a choke. A choke can do more damage.
Colin, you make it sound like a weapon of TORTURE. Any training tool can damage a dog's trachea, and most of the other collar types (ESPECIALLY choke) do far more damage. Those prongs are not sharp, and I wouldn't buy ones that were sharpened. Skin damage... possible. If the dog had sensitive skin (as Doberluv mentioned) or you were yanking.
I really like prong collars, to tell you guys the truth. I think they're attractive, and I bought one for myself as a "necklace." I like how it feels on my neck, even fitted tightly it's not uncomfortable to me; and I don't have thick skin, lots of muscle, and half a pound of fur there. *shrug*
I agree with the posters who have already said it.. I think it is a training tool that can be used effectively on many dogs (although I'm sure is not right for all dogs, no training tool is) if used knowledgeably and responsibly. It's not some freakish weapon of torture.. when it comes down to it, I would much prefer a prong on my neck than a choke. A choke can do more damage.
Sharpened prongs? Lol. Heck, the one I have actually has rubber cushions on the ends of each prong.
I, too, prefer the prong collar to the choke chain and to the head halter as well. A no-pull harness has been effective for most of the dogs I've worked with.
I found your post interesting, Doberkim, because as I've been working with stockdogs lately I've realized that a dog working in drive is completely different to handle. All-positive just doesn't work for these dogs either, but I wouldn't say they need physical correction very often. I'm sure bitework requires a different approach as well.
I, too, prefer the prong collar to the choke chain and to the head halter as well. A no-pull harness has been effective for most of the dogs I've worked with.
I found your post interesting, Doberkim, because as I've been working with stockdogs lately I've realized that a dog working in drive is completely different to handle. All-positive just doesn't work for these dogs either, but I wouldn't say they need physical correction very often. I'm sure bitework requires a different approach as well.
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I would never recommend a prong collar for a young puppy being trained. An adult being trained....yes!!! Especially if it is a big, strong dog. I walk Magnus on a prong all the time (out in public). If I don't use it he couldn't go for a walk. Although we are getting there we are not there yet (using a flat collar I mean)
If they are fitted properly and used correctly they are a wonderful training tool
If they are fitted properly and used correctly they are a wonderful training tool
So where are you supposed to walk your dog with it then........only your back yard? 'scary breeds' are going to scare the less informed people no matter how you doll them up or dress them down.........nothing to do about that. And I have never seen a plastic one, and probably wouldn't trust it anyway.
Orson does use a prong collar. I tried everything else I could get my hands on, and NOTHING worked. Even the head collar flopped because he would still pull to the point of jerking his head around.
I was like alot of people and thought that prongs were horrible, torture devices, and should only be used on monsters. It was recommended to me by other doberman owners.........TRAINED dobermans at that. Training in Shutzhund, and Show Dobes.......etc...
Orson walked EVERY night on a 45-60 minute walk the first 6 months of his life with us.........EVERY NIGHT. We would work on heel, and he would do fine in our yard, but as soon as we took our normal route through the neighborhood he would start pulling and wouldn't stop until we got back to our own yard. No amount of treats, squeak toys, clicking, or trying to tire him out with play before the walk would change his mind. I would stop and make him sit to calm down........when we started walking, he started pulling. All it was doing was making me dread our evening walks.
I went to the store and actually put a prong collar on my upper arm (bare skin) and pulled on it..........WOW, it didn't jab the skin, it felt like mild pinching (more mild than pinching with fingers) I brought it home and had instant control with him for the first time EVER.
He doesn't wear it for every leash trip, I try to alternate to give him opportunities to heel with out it. Sometimes he does, sometimes not......the prong goes on when he is having a pulling day
Orson does use a prong collar. I tried everything else I could get my hands on, and NOTHING worked. Even the head collar flopped because he would still pull to the point of jerking his head around.
I was like alot of people and thought that prongs were horrible, torture devices, and should only be used on monsters. It was recommended to me by other doberman owners.........TRAINED dobermans at that. Training in Shutzhund, and Show Dobes.......etc...
Orson walked EVERY night on a 45-60 minute walk the first 6 months of his life with us.........EVERY NIGHT. We would work on heel, and he would do fine in our yard, but as soon as we took our normal route through the neighborhood he would start pulling and wouldn't stop until we got back to our own yard. No amount of treats, squeak toys, clicking, or trying to tire him out with play before the walk would change his mind. I would stop and make him sit to calm down........when we started walking, he started pulling. All it was doing was making me dread our evening walks.
I went to the store and actually put a prong collar on my upper arm (bare skin) and pulled on it..........WOW, it didn't jab the skin, it felt like mild pinching (more mild than pinching with fingers) I brought it home and had instant control with him for the first time EVER.
He doesn't wear it for every leash trip, I try to alternate to give him opportunities to heel with out it. Sometimes he does, sometimes not......the prong goes on when he is having a pulling day
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If it is a last resort, fine. But I know many people with big 'scary' dogs that don't need the prong, they just like the look. But I have noticed and heard comments from the general public about the 'scary dog' needing such a collar for control, and if it should really be allowed on the street if it was that bad. I beleive that with training almost all dogs would be fine on a martingale, or one of the plastic prong collars. Why not trust the plastic ones? I really don't understand that it is a matter of trust. Trust it to do what?
I beleive that with training almost all dogs would be fine on a martingale, or one of the plastic prong collars. Why not trust the plastic ones? I really don't understand that it is a matter of trust. Trust it to do what?
I have a 90 lb male Doberman and I when I had to walk him where more people were....like when I visited in Seattle, I took about 1/2 hour to get 1/2 block. I just kept stopping when he wanted to go forward. I'm still strong enough to stop and brace myself. He would have to stop and we'd stand there like idiots until he came back enough to give me slack. Then we'd take one or two steps and as long as there was slack, he got a treat and praise. The second there was tension....I stopped. Sometimes I intercepted the tension by turning and going back and then back again on the same path we just made. I did this religiously until he found that it just didn't get him anywhere to pull but those few nice steps did work. This was on a flat buckle collar. He walks in a loose heel position with me no matter what is going on...with the exception of his occassional dog reactiveness where he loses it.
You just can't let one step go by where there is pulling because they find out it works to get them where they're going. It doesn't make for a fun walk or for good exercise, but you do that somewhere else like in a fenced yard....fetch or a fenced park if you're in the city. I let him get his exercise on hikes in the woods because he's always had a good recall. But I realize not everyone has a place like that where there aren't any other dogs or people much. I know the frustration of a dog who thinks he should be in the Ididerod. I never had a dog that was this hard to break of the pulling habit. Of course, I learned later that it's better to prevent it in the first place. But he was already getting reinforced for pulling. Once that happens, it's harder to convince them that it doesn't work.....because it has worked. LOL.
You just can't let one step go by where there is pulling because they find out it works to get them where they're going. It doesn't make for a fun walk or for good exercise, but you do that somewhere else like in a fenced yard....fetch or a fenced park if you're in the city. I let him get his exercise on hikes in the woods because he's always had a good recall. But I realize not everyone has a place like that where there aren't any other dogs or people much. I know the frustration of a dog who thinks he should be in the Ididerod. I never had a dog that was this hard to break of the pulling habit. Of course, I learned later that it's better to prevent it in the first place. But he was already getting reinforced for pulling. Once that happens, it's harder to convince them that it doesn't work.....because it has worked. LOL.
As I said, I haven't seen a plastic one, and just hearing the word plastic makes me think 'not strong' and he isn't a pomeranian, LOL So that would mean trusting it to NOT break.
And as for the 'big scary dog' thing again........I can't help what people think, and they think it with or with out the prong collar, trust me.
Anyone that gets to spend more than 5 minutes around him sees the truth, big, loveable, friendly, goober.
And as for the 'big scary dog' thing again........I can't help what people think, and they think it with or with out the prong collar, trust me.
Anyone that gets to spend more than 5 minutes around him sees the truth, big, loveable, friendly, goober.
For the record...
This "less painful" prong collar HURTS LIKE HELL. I tried it on my own neck, gave it a good yank and it pinched my skin into rows, and left some pretty impressive bruising. The metal prong wasn't comfortable either but when it pinched, it was with a small prong as opposed to a plastic blade (not a blade, but it felt like one!). The plastic ones just feel much sharper. Maybe they're less intense to a dog with a lot of hair around the neck, but I'd imagine on a short coated dog, they must really hurt.
This "less painful" prong collar HURTS LIKE HELL. I tried it on my own neck, gave it a good yank and it pinched my skin into rows, and left some pretty impressive bruising. The metal prong wasn't comfortable either but when it pinched, it was with a small prong as opposed to a plastic blade (not a blade, but it felt like one!). The plastic ones just feel much sharper. Maybe they're less intense to a dog with a lot of hair around the neck, but I'd imagine on a short coated dog, they must really hurt.
Those are called, ironically enough, "Good Dog Collars" or "Triple Crown Collars" as they were developed at the Triple Crown Dog Training School. My current mentor is in love with these, mostly because she says they are a lot softer. Dogs that would normally yelp when faced with a correction on a metal prong don't seem to react to the GDC. I'm still forming an opinion on it and prefer to nip the problem in the bud on a flat collar or use a martigale with a chain loop for the sound effect.
OMG RD, I don't like the looks of that plastic one at all. Is that the only plastic type there is? or are there different ones?
And Zoom, dogs 'yelp' when 'corrected' on a metal prong? Perhaps I am not 'correcting' Orson the right way...............I can't recall EVER having to give the leash a 'snap' when he has the prong on..........Honest & true he has NEVER needed to yelp once, it was like as soon as I put it on him he turned into a different walker. I think if I needed to make him yelp when he wore it, I wouldn't use it at all.
And Zoom, dogs 'yelp' when 'corrected' on a metal prong? Perhaps I am not 'correcting' Orson the right way...............I can't recall EVER having to give the leash a 'snap' when he has the prong on..........Honest & true he has NEVER needed to yelp once, it was like as soon as I put it on him he turned into a different walker. I think if I needed to make him yelp when he wore it, I wouldn't use it at all.
I don't like using any aversives, and probably would never use one. Especially without the supervision of a trainer I respected, and in dire circumstances.
That being said, I do think that they are better than the regular ol' choke chains every person slaps on their dog. A correctly used prong won't cause the kind of trachea damage that even a properly used choke has the potential for.
That being said, I do think that they are better than the regular ol' choke chains every person slaps on their dog. A correctly used prong won't cause the kind of trachea damage that even a properly used choke has the potential for.
Some do, some aren't phased. It depends on how soft the dog is and how hard the correction is. Speaking strictly about the use of correction collars and not giving bias to using them or not, if you can just put one on and have a different walker, then you should be able to get the training through that dog's head to the point you don't need it. If you're going to use the collar in the first place, then you should have the stomach to give some sort of correction with it. Otherwise, why have it on? And it's not about needing to MAKE them yelp, it's just what the dog does because it's gotten so used to hauling on a flat collar with no consequences (apparently they've learned to not need to breath) that anything that interrupts the normal behavior pattern elicted that response. Myself, I would have assessed the fact that that particular dog wasn't suited to that sort of collar and gone a different route.
My first mentor a few years ago was a nut about metal prongs and put them on almost every dog she trained. Some were very soft and would give a startled "eip!" when they went to start pulling and gave themselves a correction. Some got a good pop because the self-correct didn't sink in and "needed" something else behind it.
My first mentor a few years ago was a nut about metal prongs and put them on almost every dog she trained. Some were very soft and would give a startled "eip!" when they went to start pulling and gave themselves a correction. Some got a good pop because the self-correct didn't sink in and "needed" something else behind it.
Believe it when I say that I have tried EVERY device I could find (besides a shock)........he has had a choker (didn't work, and I hated it too) he has worn a head collar (worked for a VERY short time, then he pulled anyway twisting his neck around while doing so), he has worn the regular harnesses, AND the no-pull type.......NEITHER one worked on him.
I am RELIEVED that I don't have to snap the leash, and it has improved his behavior with the flat collar as well, (which is the point of a training device) as I stated earlier he doesn't use the prong exclusively. I slap it on him IF he starts to pull, or if we are going someplace I KNOW will be hard for him to concentrate. I have NO desire to have him be on a prong for life, just until he is cooperative in ALL situations........he is only 14 months old, and is very exciteable
I am RELIEVED that I don't have to snap the leash, and it has improved his behavior with the flat collar as well, (which is the point of a training device) as I stated earlier he doesn't use the prong exclusively. I slap it on him IF he starts to pull, or if we are going someplace I KNOW will be hard for him to concentrate. I have NO desire to have him be on a prong for life, just until he is cooperative in ALL situations........he is only 14 months old, and is very exciteable
Prong collars are always such a topic of debate. I have one, and I do use it from time to time. I am a responsible prong collar user- I have been educated on how it works, why it works, and the proper way to use one. Do I recommend them, rarely- only because I prefer that people examine all positive reinforcement avenues available. Positive reinforcement works wonderfully, but sometimes with some dogs an aversive technique can work well and cause no damage to a dog when executed properly.
Now I am not familiar with all of the ins and outs of canine behavior modification, but I do know human behavior modification well (my educational background) and aversive techniques are used in certain situations where the client is in immediate danger of being harmed or harming one self.
When I am walking a 190lb dog whos breed type can be found pulling over 3000lbs on wheels, and close to that over snow, and is more than capable of pulling me off of my feet. He doesn't, and he doesn't want to BUT what if he did? We joke that a toddler could walk him on his lead (of course we do not allow this to happen) but it wasn't always this way. He has never yelped or shown signs of distress when wearing this collar. Sure, it was uncomfortable when he was being corrected- but that is what makes it aversive. He needs to understand that when we are walking he can't decide to chase the rabbit he sees on the other side of the road if he feels the urge. We use this collar with positive reinforcement- and lots of it!
Sure, their are lots of ways to achieve this kind of security we have on lead, but this method worked well for us. We used this collar as a tool, not a full time fix and we are happy with our results.
Now I am not familiar with all of the ins and outs of canine behavior modification, but I do know human behavior modification well (my educational background) and aversive techniques are used in certain situations where the client is in immediate danger of being harmed or harming one self.
When I am walking a 190lb dog whos breed type can be found pulling over 3000lbs on wheels, and close to that over snow, and is more than capable of pulling me off of my feet. He doesn't, and he doesn't want to BUT what if he did? We joke that a toddler could walk him on his lead (of course we do not allow this to happen) but it wasn't always this way. He has never yelped or shown signs of distress when wearing this collar. Sure, it was uncomfortable when he was being corrected- but that is what makes it aversive. He needs to understand that when we are walking he can't decide to chase the rabbit he sees on the other side of the road if he feels the urge. We use this collar with positive reinforcement- and lots of it!
Sure, their are lots of ways to achieve this kind of security we have on lead, but this method worked well for us. We used this collar as a tool, not a full time fix and we are happy with our results.
We use a prong collar on our dogs, because they are shar pei mixes and have very thick and loose skin, and they don't feel normal collars or choke chain collars. The only way we can get Baby to behave on the end of a leash is with the prong collar. The only way I can control Padfoot in crowds is with the prong collar. The collar has never hurt either of our dogs in any way, and, though they don't like it, it has proven effective in training Padfoot - even teaching him to sit and [almost] stay at 3 years old.
I have only ever used a prong collar on Baron and only when I need to. He weight about as much as I do and if he decides he wants to do something he could do it. Since he is DA I need to be able to correct him and control him if he acts up. I walk him on a buckle if I can but there are some points in time where thats just not a good idea.
I only use my prong when I am around other dogs and I know I can't avoid them. I think there is a time, place, and way to use prongs. If your dog is pulling your arm off and you've tried every other way I can see using a prong correctly. If you're lazy and it sounds like a quick fix you should wear one at all times.
I only use my prong when I am around other dogs and I know I can't avoid them. I think there is a time, place, and way to use prongs. If your dog is pulling your arm off and you've tried every other way I can see using a prong correctly. If you're lazy and it sounds like a quick fix you should wear one at all times.
Despite having a relative who trains for agility try to sell me on the prong collar, I declined to use it. I used a easy walk harness in distracting situations and a regular collar otherwise. Why? Because the prong collar makes me uncomfortable, period.
I've actually worn one, and I will testify, they don't hurt, not if used correctly, which means a gradual correction and not a jerk. They are powerful tools. Maybe a bit too powerful, because they can be a crutch, and certainly, used improperly, they can be dangerous. But they are very powerful tools, and they need not be cruel, I found that out by wearing one.
So why don't I use one? Well, partially, its irrational . . . they look vicious. I don't want to put something on my dog that looks like a torture device, even if its not. But it also a rational decision . . . I don't need one. I;m strong enough to handle her and usually, my voice alone is enough. Though I'm sure it would make my life easier, I'd rather not use such a powerful tool if its not needed. That's asking to make it a crutch. I don't condemn their use, but my advice is, if there is something else (other than a choke chain, which can be more dangerous) that works, use that.
I've actually worn one, and I will testify, they don't hurt, not if used correctly, which means a gradual correction and not a jerk. They are powerful tools. Maybe a bit too powerful, because they can be a crutch, and certainly, used improperly, they can be dangerous. But they are very powerful tools, and they need not be cruel, I found that out by wearing one.
So why don't I use one? Well, partially, its irrational . . . they look vicious. I don't want to put something on my dog that looks like a torture device, even if its not. But it also a rational decision . . . I don't need one. I;m strong enough to handle her and usually, my voice alone is enough. Though I'm sure it would make my life easier, I'd rather not use such a powerful tool if its not needed. That's asking to make it a crutch. I don't condemn their use, but my advice is, if there is something else (other than a choke chain, which can be more dangerous) that works, use that.