Prong collar
- Thread starter Gallien Jacks
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Prong collars are used to correct a dog on leash. They are effective if used correctly, but they're best used by trained professionals as - like slip or 'choke' collars - they can actually damage your dog's skin and trachea if used incorrectly.
Prong collars work because, when you give them a jerk, the sharp prongs pinch sharply at the skin around your dog's neck and give a harsh correction to the dog. They're designed for use on aggressive dogs.
Different training collars have been used for quite some time now with dogs (choke collars, prong collars, halters) but the general consensus is that you should NOT use a 'correctional collar' unless you've been thoroughly instructed by a professional trainer, or are under that trainer's supervision, because the capacity for inflicting accidental injury is just too high.
Prong collars work because, when you give them a jerk, the sharp prongs pinch sharply at the skin around your dog's neck and give a harsh correction to the dog. They're designed for use on aggressive dogs.
Different training collars have been used for quite some time now with dogs (choke collars, prong collars, halters) but the general consensus is that you should NOT use a 'correctional collar' unless you've been thoroughly instructed by a professional trainer, or are under that trainer's supervision, because the capacity for inflicting accidental injury is just too high.
I'm sorry I'm in a bad mood today. With a professional I suppose they could be used in a non-abusive way, but the average person who picks one up is looking for a quick fix and will not be using it in a constructive way, they will just be jerking the heck out of the dog. I still don't like the idea unless you have completely run out of all other ways and the behavior is harmful to the dog or family. I will not be totally against them assuming people have exhausted all other (positive) options.
I'm sorry - but I use a prong collar successfully on many dogs and none of them are abused. None has ever had any problem with them physically except for my current dog - as a blue dobe, he has very sensitive skin and ANY collar on him long term makes him very itchy. For him, I use the prong covers to make it less abrasive, and at home he can only wear choke soft leather collars or metal collars, to prevent damage to his coat.
Fact is, some dogs in drive are not going to always respond to all positive training. Sometimes he needs to know that what I want from him is not necessarily an optional. This doens't shut him down - in fact, you can talk to any of the people I train with (two being actual judges) and they will tell you, my dog is one the HAPPIEST workers they have ever seen - he ENJOYS doing this and wants to do it more and more. He is ready to get out there and work and DRIVES me to do it.
I think it's abusive to have a dog on a flat collar that pulls so constantly that the dog is choking itself and hacking.
I think it's cruel to have a dog run out and hit the end of a leash on a halti and have his neck/head jerked around abruptly. I think it's wrong to have a dog that walks constantly choking himself on a martingale collar so he cannot breathe.
There are many ways to abuse a dog, and you don't need a prong collar to do it. Fact is, most people have horribly ill fitting prong collars PERIOD that cannot even tighten enough to give a correction - for all the dog is wearing, it's not even POKING the dog.
Using something incorrectly doesn't make the TOOL bad. Same could be said of guns - remember guns don't kill people, PEOPLE kill people. Why attack the item when it's the wrong USE that is the problem?
We could go around this all day long. Everyone can have their own opinion. BUt working a soft dog that shrinks at the entire thought of being wrong, or a very honest dog, is not what everyone has. My dog isn't afraid of making mistakes. I do not escalate to continually correct him - sometimes all he needs is a small pinch in the butt, or a tap on the nose with my finger. Sometimes its a look, sometimes its the lack of reward (be it food, tug, verbal or physical praise), and yes, sometimes its a short correction on the prong. For most of these, my dog doesn't even know I am correcting him, he simply gets a correction for not being in the correct position andpaying attention to me! He doesn't associate it with "oh, my mom just corrected me, whoa is me" - he understands "hey! if i was WATCHING mom, I'd see she changed direction! better watch her MORE now!" - and voila, I have a dog that watches me intently for every little move. And I've worked hard to associate the prong not with negative corrections, but immediately followed by a reward. because the minute he gets a correction and FIXES his behavior, he is rewarded lavishly for what is correct.
Cider abused herself with many of the happy positive anti pull tools.. Ran to the end of the GL and snapped her own neck back... Pulled on the lupi so she was on tip toes abrading her armpits still pulling as much as she could... Didn't hurt herself but walked sideways on the easy walk harness so she could make an attempt to pull.. Choked herself on a flat collar...
Tried being a tree, waiting for attention, stinky treats she'd never seen before. Inside good, backyard good... Anywhere else too self rewarding.. We went to a prong without training.. and my dog never go abused. She self corrected a few times and became a decent walking companion. Gave enough of a start that she could offer up some attention and we could move to a flat collar.
Tried being a tree, waiting for attention, stinky treats she'd never seen before. Inside good, backyard good... Anywhere else too self rewarding.. We went to a prong without training.. and my dog never go abused. She self corrected a few times and became a decent walking companion. Gave enough of a start that she could offer up some attention and we could move to a flat collar.
I used a prong at one point in Tosca's training. To be quite frank, she was getting bigger, was quick to want to take off for distractions, and was too strong for me. Period. In one instance, she made me take a serious fall in which I am extremely fortunate I did not break a bone. Had I not tried the prong collar, I am more than certain I would have not gotten over this hump with her. She no longer needs the prong, however, I will tell you that when I take her somewhere new where i know there is going to be a large crowd, I put the collar on her but do not hook it up to the leash. This is in my mind a security against the possibility that I would be able to use it in the event of that ONE unanticipated situation where I might need it. For example, I take her to parades. I love parades. I will travel for a good parade. I like to bring Tosca. She is one year old, doing very well but she is still not mature enough for me to 100% trust her (or maybe MYSELF yet) in new first-time situations. I do NOT apologize for this in any way. Not everybody is a professional dog trainer with years of experience under their belt. Sometimes some of us need help.
there's a woman in harv's beginner class with an 8 month old golden. he's a typical 8 month old golden- extremely enthusiastic, happy, and strong. he wants to play play play!!!! and she cannot physically control him. he's pulled the leash out of her hands on several occasions, and he's pulled her off-balance and around the room on several others.
so last week, the trainer, who is anti-prong collar, fitted this dog with a head halter. it was painful to watch. i don't think i've ever been so flat-out *disturbed* by anything i've seen in any of the many obedience classes i've had my dogs in. this dog flailed and dug at his face and moaned and flailed and dug at his face and was *so* distressed by the head halter i wanted to scream TAKE IT OFF HIM FOR GOD'S SAKE!!! but i didn't. i just sat on the floor and hugged harv (who wears just a flat collar) and promised him i'd never ever do anything like that to him.
the trainer laughed it off ha ha ha he's such a drama queen, just distract him with food, he'll get over it but the dog did *not* get over it. he finally got it off his nose, and when the trainer went to take it off him the rest of the way, she couldn't get near him.
positive methods my butt.
the trainer doesn't use prongs because they're aversive. what the heck does she think that experience just was??!! prongs are aversive. so is my telling a dog no. aversive does not mean abusive. if that dog gets away from her, he could get in a fight, he could get hit by a car, he could have any number of bad things happen to him. but a prong collar is not even an option to be considered by them, because it's mean.
so last week, the trainer, who is anti-prong collar, fitted this dog with a head halter. it was painful to watch. i don't think i've ever been so flat-out *disturbed* by anything i've seen in any of the many obedience classes i've had my dogs in. this dog flailed and dug at his face and moaned and flailed and dug at his face and was *so* distressed by the head halter i wanted to scream TAKE IT OFF HIM FOR GOD'S SAKE!!! but i didn't. i just sat on the floor and hugged harv (who wears just a flat collar) and promised him i'd never ever do anything like that to him.
the trainer laughed it off ha ha ha he's such a drama queen, just distract him with food, he'll get over it but the dog did *not* get over it. he finally got it off his nose, and when the trainer went to take it off him the rest of the way, she couldn't get near him.
positive methods my butt.
the trainer doesn't use prongs because they're aversive. what the heck does she think that experience just was??!! prongs are aversive. so is my telling a dog no. aversive does not mean abusive. if that dog gets away from her, he could get in a fight, he could get hit by a car, he could have any number of bad things happen to him. but a prong collar is not even an option to be considered by them, because it's mean.
I totally agree its what the dog finds aversive. This is why I don't like all the pro head halter crowd who claims it is soo positive. NOPE not for many dogs. It has a suppressing effect (imagine you walking around with a pair of hand cuffs with a long chain in between) that many see as calming.
As for prong collars, for me I see them as a management tool to use while training your dog. Not a tool to replace training your dog. I like them better than choke chains. There have been studies on the damage even a correctly used choke can have on a dog. The obed club I belong to are huge into the prong collars, so I have seen them used a lot (don't like them in my class, unless there is the little old lady and the 80lb lab sort of thing going on) and I have never seen an injury.
One thing I would point out though. If you have a 'scary' breed, please don't walk it on a prong in public. The general public sees prongs are nasty things, and your dog must be really evil to need something that looks like a medieval torture device just to be walked. At least in regards to the metal ones, there are plastic ones.
As for prong collars, for me I see them as a management tool to use while training your dog. Not a tool to replace training your dog. I like them better than choke chains. There have been studies on the damage even a correctly used choke can have on a dog. The obed club I belong to are huge into the prong collars, so I have seen them used a lot (don't like them in my class, unless there is the little old lady and the 80lb lab sort of thing going on) and I have never seen an injury.
One thing I would point out though. If you have a 'scary' breed, please don't walk it on a prong in public. The general public sees prongs are nasty things, and your dog must be really evil to need something that looks like a medieval torture device just to be walked. At least in regards to the metal ones, there are plastic ones.
A front clip no pull harness solves both the head collar (I hate them too but have used newtrix brand ocassionally) and prong collar issue.
I've yet to meet a dog who is either too strong for one or who even notices that it's there...no habituation phase. I wish more people would look for a less aversive way to control their dogs while training progresses.
I saw a black standard poodle the other day, bows in her hair with the typical poodle cut. She was wearing a prong and with her very tight clip you could see the prong/skin connection. I felt sick.
This dog could absolutely have worn a front clip harness and been lovely....
I've yet to meet a dog who is either too strong for one or who even notices that it's there...no habituation phase. I wish more people would look for a less aversive way to control their dogs while training progresses.
I saw a black standard poodle the other day, bows in her hair with the typical poodle cut. She was wearing a prong and with her very tight clip you could see the prong/skin connection. I felt sick.
This dog could absolutely have worn a front clip harness and been lovely....
You are referring to SPORNS! 
We use them all the time at the rescue shelter. They are godsends! :hail:
We use them all the time at the rescue shelter. They are godsends! :hail:
http://www.canineconcepts.co.uk/item--Halti-Harness--halti-harness
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My 4-H trainer suggested suggested a prong collar on sly because he would lunge forward. I poped my shoulder one time from him lunging because he is stronger than me and i didn't want something worse to happen so we went to petsmart to get one. The trainer there suggested instead a gentle leader instead. He said it was more humane and that my 4-H trainer was from the old training ways. So we got one. He said the dog was going to fight it and knowing Sly it would be true true. It took us 15 min just to get it on his head. Trying to fit the thing was even harder. Every time i would put it on his head he would fight it, and it wasn't going to help me wean him back on to the choke chain because we have to use it in the competition. They feel different to him. So we got a prong collar. My 4-H trainer sized it on him for us because she said that most people put it on too loose or too tight. It worked just fine. He wasn't pulling me and he wasn't Bucking and kicking trying to get the Halter off his nose. I would reccomend prong collars. They might look painful when you look at them, but if you try them on your wrist, It's not that painful.
So we got one. He said the dog was going to fight it and knowing Sly it would be true true. It took us 15 min just to get it on his head. Trying to fit the thing was even harder. Every time i would put it on his head he would fight it, and it wasn't going to help me wean him back on to the choke chain because we have to use it in the competition. They feel different to him. So we got a prong collar. My 4-H trainer sized it on him for us because she said that most people put it on too loose or too tight. It worked just fine. He wasn't pulling me and he wasn't Bucking and kicking trying to get the Halter off his nose. I would reccomend prong collars. They might look painful when you look at them, but if you try them on your wrist, It's not that painful.
You're not suppose to just stick the head collar on the dog right from the get go. You're suppose to feed him through the loop you make while holding it in front of him and not put it on at all at first. Then drape just the muzzle part over his muzzle and feed him yummy treats. Then, put it on for just a couple of seconds and feed. Then take it off. Gradually have him wear it just a little longer. All this is done in the house and over several days. Then outside, also gradually work from the beginning up. This is called conditioning. Of course a dog is going to hate a novel thing until he has become habituated to it.
Whether or not a prong collar is very painful, mildly painful, only discomfort, it works on the premise of avoidance. The dog "behaves" in order to avoid something rather than "behave" because behaving behooves him. That is the whole principle behind positive methods. Work to earn. The dog must be set up to succeed by manipulating his environment, by creating motivation and a reinforcer that the dog wants or needs. For example, the dog wants to move forward when he is pulling. That posibility must be stopped immedately and consistantly. Also, people fail to reinforce their dogs frequently enough when they are taking a couple of "polite" steps. They wait to see if the dog will walk nicely for 10 feet. Well, that is setting the dog up to fail and eliminating a chance for lots of reinforcement, which is what drives behavior. Each and ever step the dog takes which is right next to you should be reinforced. Setting the dog up by practicing in low distractions is a must.
When that is not possible, then a head collar or better yet, the no pull type harness would be, IMO a better choice because there isn't pain to avoid....(or positive punishment.) There is really only removing the good thing....moving forward. It is true that a head collar can indeed be torture if the dog has not become conditioned to it. I think the harness sounds much better at any rate.
Whether or not a prong collar is very painful, mildly painful, only discomfort, it works on the premise of avoidance. The dog "behaves" in order to avoid something rather than "behave" because behaving behooves him. That is the whole principle behind positive methods. Work to earn. The dog must be set up to succeed by manipulating his environment, by creating motivation and a reinforcer that the dog wants or needs. For example, the dog wants to move forward when he is pulling. That posibility must be stopped immedately and consistantly. Also, people fail to reinforce their dogs frequently enough when they are taking a couple of "polite" steps. They wait to see if the dog will walk nicely for 10 feet. Well, that is setting the dog up to fail and eliminating a chance for lots of reinforcement, which is what drives behavior. Each and ever step the dog takes which is right next to you should be reinforced. Setting the dog up by practicing in low distractions is a must.
When that is not possible, then a head collar or better yet, the no pull type harness would be, IMO a better choice because there isn't pain to avoid....(or positive punishment.) There is really only removing the good thing....moving forward. It is true that a head collar can indeed be torture if the dog has not become conditioned to it. I think the harness sounds much better at any rate.
I know dogs even when the owners to the right steps to desensitize the halter, the light goes out of the dogs eyes when ever it goes on.
I do love the no pull harnesses. ANY harness with a metal ring in the center of the chest works (if you attatch the leash to that center ring) I find they work every bit as well as the official no pull harnesses. The sporn harness works on aversives.
I do love the no pull harnesses. ANY harness with a metal ring in the center of the chest works (if you attatch the leash to that center ring) I find they work every bit as well as the official no pull harnesses. The sporn harness works on aversives.
I agree with you Dekka about the head halter. It can be that way since the muzzle is such a strongly communicative area on a dog. Having something around the muzzle can certainly have a subduing effect on a dog. What I was talking about in my post was the difference between a dog accepting it fairly calmly....tolerating it and a dog who is freaking out when one is suddenly put on him, strapped up and taken out into the world.