Pitbulls and Other Dogs or Cats

[sonny]

I think you may have confused me as much as you...lol What you say makes sense in terms of drive and willingness,and your right when you say,a term dogmen use....thats where i learned from reading books by them,And i dont or would never fight my or anyones dog to test there gameness,as for amstaffer....god help us.

Sonny:

I think you're totally confusing what I'm trying to say...
"gamebred" describes (generally/not always) dogs which are smaller (under 60 pounds) thin in build, and often having superior drive and willingness to please...gameness is the refusal to quit a task no matter the circumstances. The task was originally bull baiting, then dog fighting. Nowadays gameness can also be measured by weight pull = hence my example...although I agree it probably wasn't the best one lol

Some may argue it depends on who you ask...there are the traditionalists, that I've mentioned..that argue that there is no other way to game test a dog except for in the pit with other dogs...history also showed that pits were used for hunting boars...this required "gamebred" dogs...people today test for gameness using boar/wild pig hunting as a means as well...

My entire point though was to say that it doesn't have to do with fighting, and these days it usually doesn't...its something only traditionalists maintained to be fact...which responsible american pit bull terrier owner will fight their dog to check for gameness these days? NONE...Does this mean that in that case, there ARE no real gamebred dogs anymore? Well then maybe it does......or maybe it means that gameness is a term that's going through an evolution phase...coming out of the dog pit and moving on so to speak...or maybe I'm wrong altogether lol

If it really does have to do with criminal activities, then it really isn't doing pit bulls a favor..and in that case, I hope the term dies out entirely...I rather not have any game dogs around...stupid dogmen..

 

[pitbulliest]

sonny..lol yeah, lets just leave it at that...

 

[sonny]

OK...

sonny..lol yeah, lets just leave it at that...

 

[smartie]

Please tell me, what kind of moron would compare holocaust to banning pit bulls from owning them??
Now i can understand why someone would call you names...
ugh, makes me sick

well, just another real face behind an animal lover cover.....meanwhile, I would kindly request you avoid using any bad language,

thanks to people as you are, a lot of bad things happen in this world...

what good you did for this society?

 

[Amstaffer]

...If you truly knew the difference and cared about the breed you would be obligated to admit the difference as to the safety of any dog in a dog park .

I do know the difference (I am actually very good at pick out the difference) and most of it is Denial by Amstaff elitists and Tough guy wannabees in the APBT world. Amstaff breeders hate it when their dog is called a Pit Bull because that is beneath them and some APBT breeders say Amstaffs are too wimpy for them.

Is there some differences, sure but much of it is over hyped. My female is actually most likely a Pitbull or Mixed because her mother was rescued (while pregnant) during a raid on a dog fighting ring. Personality wise you couldn't tell her from the average Amstaff female.

I do acknowledge there is more concern for "Good" tempermant in show Amstaffs and in the APBT world there is more of the "Darkside" seen in breeding. I think this Darkside is more excepted but not mainstream. But if you have ever read any of my other posts on this topic you will know I am a firm believer in Nurture (way) over Nature, so the whole breeding lines to me doesn't mean that much.

As far as a Well bred Male APBT not being untrustworthy at a Dog Park... Complete Hogwash! My friend has a well breed and well trained and socialize APBT and he is simply the best and most easy going do at the dog park. You have to Socialize your dog and know how your dog reacts before you take them to a Dog park, but that goes for any dog you take to a dog park. There are a couple of people I know (Golden Ret owner and Dalmation owner) who I wish would follow that advice.

How trustworthy your dog is at the dog park is more dependant on you than it is on the breed of dog you have chosen.

 

[Amstaffer]

Please tell me, what kind of moron would compare holocaust to banning pit bulls from owning them??

Now i can understand why someone would call you names...


ugh, makes me sick.

Please no names!

BSL often lead to many many dogs being put to sleep, I think that is what the point was.

 

[pitbulliest]

Amstaffer..I'm sorry to say, but what you are doing is not responsible...pit bulls do not belong in off leash dog parks, period.

 

[Amstaffer]

Amstaffer..how old are your dogs? I would definately agree with sonny and advise you to stop taking them to offleash dog parks. Every responsible pit owner should be following this rule to ensure the safety of your own dogs and others..you can never trust a pit bull not to fight...and to think otherwise is denial...

There are other great ways to socialize your dogs without taking the risk and making the breed look bad in the public eye yet again..why when it can be very easily avoided?

My female is almost 9 and my male is almost 5. As I said before, Athena (female) is fantasic at parks and never ever has problem. I would trust her, she has zero aggression or dominance issues. I don't go to dog parks very much any more because Sal doesn't respond well to some dogs who challenge him in an aggressive nature. Its funny because some dogs can act dominant towards him (One Cocker Spaniel loves to mount him and he doesn't care) and he doesn't respond. He has never bitten another dog but he gets the funny deep growl (the one all pitbull owners hear when things are serious) and pushs them with his chest. 99% of the dogs he meets everything is cool but I keep him close (When I do go) and leave when strange or dominant dogs come. The only time I still go is to meet a couple of friends I have with Dogs that Sal just LOVES! One of those dogs is a Male APBT who is just like Athena (my female), he gets along with everyone...no exceptions.

 

[Amstaffer]

Amstaffer..I'm sorry to say, but what you are doing is not responsible...pit bulls do not belong in off leash dog parks, period.

I respect your opinion but you don't know my dogs, me or how well I have socialized and trained them.

I have taken Athena to dog parks COUNTLESS times and never had anything close to a problem. She is calm and well liked and respected even by the "bad" dogs at the park.

 

[pitbulliest]

You cannot socialize or train genetics out of your dogs. Many pit bull owners have said the same, and have received a heck of a surprise one fine day that they would not have expected in a million years. These dogs were bred to fight...

Anyways, no point in dwelling on this subject as it keeps moving around in circles. I think most of us have said what we needed to say.

 

[sonny]

Well I am glad you did acknowledge a difference in the breed . Now all we need you to do is stop telling people its OK to take a APBT to a dog park!!!! Its not safe ,they are in fact different then amstaffs,but I still say amstaffs should be leashed as they can be aggressive as well, although they are bred for show. And I cant see the ADBA as a bunch of tough guy wannabees,I own a ADBA registered male APBT and he's very friendly now at 11 months of age. I also do socialize him, not in public though...he may be OK now but they tend to become aggressive around 2-3 years of age somtimes 5! Its important we pass on this information to stop these problems and dog parks are a potentially a big problem ,I don't want to argue about this but its just not good practice to tell people a APBT is not dog aggressive when in fact the dog has been bred forever to be animal aggressive you cant train that out of them..Its most definitely NOT hogwash!

I do know the difference (I am actually very good at pick out the difference) and most of it is Denial by Amstaff elitists and Tough guy wannabees in the APBT world. Amstaff breeders hate it when their dog is called a Pit Bull because that is beneath them and some APBT breeders say Amstaffs are too wimpy for them.

Is there some differences, sure but much of it is over hyped. My female is actually most likely a Pitbull or Mixed because her mother was rescued (while pregnant) during a raid on a dog fighting ring. Personality wise you couldn't tell her from the average Amstaff female.

I do acknowledge there is more concern for "Good" tempermant in show Amstaffs and in the APBT world there is more of the "Darkside" seen in breeding. I think this Darkside is more excepted but not mainstream. But if you have ever read any of my other posts on this topic you will know I am a firm believer in Nurture (way) over Nature, so the whole breeding lines to me doesn't mean that much.

As far as a Well bred Male APBT not being untrustworthy at a Dog Park... Complete Hogwash! My friend has a well breed and well trained and socialize APBT and he is simply the best and most easy going do at the dog park. You have to Socialize your dog and know how your dog reacts before you take them to a Dog park, but that goes for any dog you take to a dog park. There are a couple of people I know (Golden Ret owner and Dalmation owner) who I wish would follow that advice.

How trustworthy your dog is at the dog park is more dependant on you than it is on the breed of dog you have chosen.

 

[smartie]

BSL often lead to many many dogs being put to sleep, I think that is what the point was.

Amstaffer, thank you for your explanation to that person
fortunately for pit bulls, some people, did not just learn the alphabet, but can actually read and understand what others are talking about....

 

[Amstaffer]

Well I am glad you did acknowledge a difference in the breed . Now all we need you to do is stop telling people its OK to take a APBT to a dog park!!!! Its not safe ,they are in fact different than amstaffs,but I still say amstaffs should be leashed as they can be aggressive as well, although they are bred for show. And I cant see the ADBA as a bunch of tough guy wannabees,I own a ADBA registered male APBT and he's very friendly now at 11 months of age. I also do socialize him, not in public though...he may be OK now but they tend to become aggressive around 2-3 years of age somtimes 5! Its important we pass on this information to stop these problems and dog parks are a potentially a big problem ,I don't want to argue about this but its just not good practice to tell people a APBT is not dog aggressive when in fact the dog has been bred forever to be animal aggressive you cat train that out of them..Its most definitely NOT hogwash!

Well all I can comment on is what I have seen. In my experience I have seen several members of the Pitbull family that are just fine at the dog park, do they require extra socialization and experienced owners yes. I just don't like blanket statements like...All...Never, becasue there are most definatly cases that prove those kind of statements incorrect.

My female Athena was the product of people who planned to raise fighting dogs (see early post for story) and she is almost nine (birth day in 2 months) and if she is going to be aggressive and untrustworthy by now I highly doubt she will suddenly "turn" now. I actually think she is getting mellower....if that is possible.

 

[sonny]

Guess that's where we have a different outlook on this matter, I have witnessed some bad situations with leashed dogs and many different types of "pitbulls" . Family dogs like yours , my cousin had a staffy that ate c##s whole . She was the sweetest dog I ever saw, but tell the neighbors that.She was euthanized because she ran off leash and got into some situations, I don't want to get to graphic, as it hurts the purpose of what I and a few others are trying to do here. And that's get the general public to be cautious and responsible, and it starts with a leash ,now I know dog parks don't require leashes, so I'm not saying your irresponsible. But if it was common practice we could get lots of unwanted press from emerging and save some pets from the brutal power unleashed from a powerful and capable animal .Now that applies to all large aggressive dogs , not to just single out the "pitbull" family. I'm not telling you personally to stop taking your dog to the dog park. But if I may please ask you to stop telling others its ok,would be greatly appreciated among "pitbull"owners abroad.

Well all I can comment on is what I have seen. In my experience I have seen several members of the Pitbull family that are just fine at the dog park, do they require extra socialization and experienced owners yes. I just don't like blanket statements like...All...Never, becasue there are most definatly cases that prove those kind of statements incorrect.

My female Athena was the product of people who planned to raise fighting dogs (see early post for story) and she is almost nine (birth day in 2 months) and if she is going to be aggressive and untrustworthy by now I highly doubt she will suddenly "turn" now. I actually think she is getting mellower....if that is possible.

 

[Amstaffer]

But if I may please ask you to stop telling others its ok,would be greatly appreciated among "pitbull"owners abroad.

I don't think I told anyone it was ok (implying no big deal). I told about my honest experience and I also said that Pit Bulls need extra socialization and experienced owners who know their dog. I think if you have all THREE of those you can take them to Dog Parks.

The important part is knowing your dog. I realize when I go to the park that I have to watch and treat my Male Sal differently than my female Athena. I feel that if you are a casual dog owner then you shouldn't take your dog (any dog) to the dog park. If you don't socialize your dog (any breed) and know your dog you are asking for trouble.

I seen a JRT get serious injured at a dog park because he attacked a Malamute 8 times its size. The JRT owner was at fault because his dog fully attacked another dog almost right off the bat for no reason. He obivously didn't socialize his dog very well or know his dog very well. I know a guy who has a Golden that goes crazy (has bitten several other dogs) if another dog grabs his ball while they play fetch, that guy hasn't socialized his dog correctly for Dog park play.

If I was buying a dog with Dog Parking in mind I would not pick the Pit Bull ( I would pick a Newfie, I have never seen one get into it with another dog) but I do think that well trained and Socialized they can be fine in the right hands. That is my experience.............

 

[sonny]

I guess we will agree that we disagree on this, Its been your personal experience that's been pleasant ,I have seen bloodshed, my trainer has a dog named rocky a APBT male about 6 years old, he would be a dog parks worst nightmare, and yes in his professional opinion he strongly advises against dog parks, and then there's JR. another APBT, and cant forget milk, all white APBT,all could never in a million years be brought to a dog park. And thank GOD they're owners know better.Like I said earlier the APBT are not dog park material......or if whoever reads this and decides an APBT is dog park material, you better have a breaking stick and a good attorney .good night and good luck

I don't think I told anyone it was ok (implying no big deal). I told about my honest experience and I also said that Pit Bulls need extra socialization and experienced owners who know their dog. I think if you have all THREE of those you can take them to Dog Parks.

The important part is knowing your dog. I realize when I go to the park that I have to watch and treat my Male Sal differently than my female Athena. I feel that if you are a casual dog owner then you shouldn't take your dog (any dog) to the dog park. If you don't socialize your dog (any breed) and know your dog you are asking for trouble.

I seen a JRT get serious injured at a dog park because he attacked a Malamute 8 times its size. The JRT owner was at fault because his dog fully attacked another dog almost right off the bat for no reason. He obivously didn't socialize his dog very well or know his dog very well. I know a guy who has a Golden that goes crazy (has bitten several other dogs) if another dog grabs his ball while they play fetch, that guy hasn't socialized his dog correctly for Dog park play.

If I was buying a dog with Dog Parking in mind I would not pick the Pit Bull ( I would pick a Newfie, I have never seen one get into it with another dog) but I do think that well trained and Socialized they can be fine in the right hands. That is my experience.............

 

[lewis]

[/QUOTE]Word choice is going to make or break your argument. Dismissing the concerns people have about their dogs being attacked by pit bulls - valid concerns that people have developed after experiencing not-so-nice pit bulls firsthand - as a 'myth' will not convince anyone with contrary experience; it'll just make them think either you're not very well informed, or that you are so passionate about your cause that you're willing to lie.[/QUOTE]

Casablanca1,

I do know that word choice sometimes plays the crucial role in just any matter. And I am here not to argue with you or any other here, and I do read all posts with a big interest, well not counting the posts of those who use bad language toward others - posts like that just cut off a conversation and are useless.
I never said that pitbulls are all friendly. It depends on the training, on how well and proper it was ..
And why on earth I would deliberately lie? I only lie on purpose when I want to get something from somebody (f.e.), what can I possibly get and from whom in this certain case?
Once again, by being picky to word choice people disregard the problem being raised. But the word choice matters, sure it does, that's why smartie has chosen the word "genocide" in her article, to emphasize the murderous character of this ban and not to compare Hitler's evil politics to pitbull extermination. But are we going to argue about whether it was right or wrong to use this word, or we simply open our eyes to this crying out loud UNJUSTICE?

 

[casablanca1]

I never said that pitbulls are all friendly. It depends on the training, on how well and proper it was .. And why on earth I would deliberately lie? I only lie on purpose when I want to get something from somebody (f.e.), what can I possibly get and from whom in this certain case?

You do want something - sympathy and agreement to your cause. I'm not calling you a liar, by the way, I'm simply cautious about the passion you've shown toward the pit bull issue. In my experience, many passionate people feel their cause is so righteous, they don't have to play fair but are allowed to fudge the facts for a greater good.

Once again, by being picky to word choice people disregard the problem being raised. But the word choice matters, sure it does, that's why smartie has chosen the word "genocide" in her article, to emphasize the murderous character of this ban and not to compare Hitler's evil politics to pitbull extermination.

The reason it's so incindiary to use 'genocide' is linked to the reason people are resisting the call to arms about injustice toward pits. Mass murder is black and white - it's evil, pure and simple. The motives are evil, the methods are evil, the ends are evil. BSL is not. It may have evil effects, it may come from confused or impure motives, it may use evil methods, but it's not a lashing out of humanity's nastiest potential - it's a policy of limited prejudice toward animals (rightly or wrongly) considered to be a threat to a community. Key words - animals, limited, threat. Banning certain animals or types of animals isn't evil - it may be wrong or stupid or ineffective, I'm not arguing for it. But it's not evil.

But are we going to argue about whether it was right or wrong to use this word, or we simply open our eyes to this crying out loud UNJUSTICE?

Because too many people aren't convinced it is an injustice. And that can be laid at the feet not of the media or the ignorant, but of the fanatics. Too many pit bull proponents are unreliable and careless in their speech, which makes people question their handling skills. I don't want a person who believes their dog-aggressive pit is no more dangerous than a Cocker Spaniel to move in next door to me. I love my dog too.

 

[Amstaffer]

The reason it's so incindiary to use 'genocide' is linked to the reason people are resisting the call to arms about injustice toward pits. Mass murder is black and white - it's evil, pure and simple. The motives are evil, the methods are evil, the ends are evil. BSL is not. It may have evil effects, it may come from confused or impure motives, it may use evil methods, but it's not a lashing out of humanity's nastiest potential - it's a policy of limited prejudice toward animals (rightly or wrongly) considered to be a threat to a community. Key words - animals, limited, threat. Banning certain animals or types of animals isn't evil - it may be wrong or stupid or ineffective, I'm not arguing for it. But it's not evil.
.

I am not comparing BSL to the Holocaust, just to make that clear right up front.

I have studied many cases of Genocide in college (history and social sc major) and the people who carried them out justified them as valid and needed actions. You can rationalize anything.

BSL are not Genocide....OK don't jump me I was just making a comment on genocide.

BSL in my opinion are Evil because of their out come and their foundation in ignorance. The only reason we want to stop short of calling it evil is because it is against an animal. If the same type of laws were against humans they would without a doubt be evil without any possible arguement. My dogs are like my family and thus in my heart I feel any laws outlawing them is evil. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Amstaffer]

The reason it's so incindiary to use 'genocide' is linked to the reason people are resisting the call to arms about injustice toward pits. Mass murder is black and white - it's evil, pure and simple. The motives are evil, the methods are evil, the ends are evil. BSL is not. It may have evil effects, it may come from confused or impure motives, it may use evil methods, but it's not a lashing out of humanity's nastiest potential - it's a policy of limited prejudice toward animals (rightly or wrongly) considered to be a threat to a community. Key words - animals, limited, threat. Banning certain animals or types of animals isn't evil - it may be wrong or stupid or ineffective, I'm not arguing for it. But it's not evil.
.

I am not comparing BSL to the Holocaust, just to make that clear right up front.

I have studied many cases of Genocide in college (history and social sc major) and the people who carried them out justified them as valid and needed actions. You can rationalize anything.

BSL are not Genocide....OK don't jump me I was just making a comment on genocide.

BSL in my opinion are Evil because of their out come and their foundation in ignorance. The only reason we want to stop short of calling it evil is because it is against an animal. If the same type of laws were against humans they would without a doubt be evil without any possible arguement. My dogs are like my family and thus in my heart I feel any laws outlawing them is evil. Just my 2 cents.