On voting for McCain
- Thread starter noludoru
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I'm dittoing Sparks here - to me it's not how it happened, but that it is something completely out of his control. Plenty of other things to mock him for if you feel like doing so, but not this.
I'm sure Smexy realizes her mistake now, though, and will be more sensitive in the future. We all say stupid things sometimes. (I'm paying for one particularly stupid thing I said a few weeks ago still, actually, and will be for a while. Sigh.)
I'm sure Smexy realizes her mistake now, though, and will be more sensitive in the future. We all say stupid things sometimes. (I'm paying for one particularly stupid thing I said a few weeks ago still, actually, and will be for a while. Sigh.)
smexy highlights the ignorance of the majority of young voters who are swept up in a person's presence in front of the camera. not only did McCain endure the torture but when given the opportunity to be freed, he refused and insisted men held longer than he be released/exchanged first. his character in these instances caused him to suffer 2 more years than he had to in the infamous Hanoi Hilton.
OTH
i know about BOs long muslim history, his association w/ ACORN (who are being investigated for illegal voter registrations in several states), his association w/ several corrupt politicians from the machine in chicago, his voting record on issues important to me. his endorsement by Colin Powell made me lose respect for Mr Powell. his endorsement by Qaddafi & Khatami gave me flashback to president Carter & made me sick to my stomach. I know more about BO politically than i want to and i am horrified at the prospect of his election.
ETA: what is the deal w/ romney & his dog? i didn't get too far into his politics before i decided he was a crappy choice, so i quit paying attention.
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i know about BOs long muslim history, his association w/ ACORN (who are being investigated for illegal voter registrations in several states), his association w/ several corrupt politicians from the machine in chicago, his voting record on issues important to me. his endorsement by Colin Powell made me lose respect for Mr Powell. his endorsement by Qaddafi & Khatami gave me flashback to president Carter & made me sick to my stomach. I know more about BO politically than i want to and i am horrified at the prospect of his election.
ETA: what is the deal w/ romney & his dog? i didn't get too far into his politics before i decided he was a crappy choice, so i quit paying attention.
Well, you missed a couple of my points. I wasn't advocating aborting DS babies . . . I was pointing out that the debate about deformed or defective babies seems to center around them. Unfortunately, there are a lot of things that are far, far worse than DS. One, which was mentioned earlier in this thread, in the context of an abortion, in anaencephally, which is a condition in which the baby is, quite literally, born without a brain, though they possess a brain stem, allowing biological life to continue for a short period. As for gestational diabetes, it doubles your risk of developing real diabetes . . . is that an excuse for an abortion? Honestly, I don't know, but it shouldn't be dismissed as "easily controlled" and left at that.
Nor do I think that viable infants, even borderline, should be left to die. However, I do think its cruel to try and keep something alive that can't live . . . and foolish to expend out limited infant ICU resources to do so. Convicted criminals do not use the infant ICU.
As for wanting to know only the basics, you have proved my point. You didn't go back and read the accounts in this thread. You haven't done a lot of research, you go with your feelings. That's fine, you are entitled to feel that way. But you might want to know the facts before you judge others, or before you vote to pass laws that can determine the lives of others. THat's what this is about, after all . . not what you would do, or even what you think others should do, but what you are willing to have the government FORCE others to do.
I haven't the first clue who to vote for. I read opinions on both sides of people i respect. I am so confused. I looked up the green party.
Maybe if they can't wear their supporters on the clothing or car, might be a long list, they should have to post it on thier websites and at the end of their ads like the credits of movies.
Maybe if they can't wear their supporters on the clothing or car, might be a long list, they should have to post it on thier websites and at the end of their ads like the credits of movies.
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In some article him and his kids were reliving "funny" stories from the past. Supposedly on some family trip he found it okay to strap his dog in its crate to the top of the car while it was raining because it was being noisy in the car. I dont remember the "funny" part of it now but that was the general idea.
First of all. At this point I am not voting on abortion. This is not my main reason for voting for McCain. And I don't believe McCain's view on abortion is going to change the law. As said previously Bush has been president for 8 years, and abortion is still legal.
And I do believe there are far more important issues that need to be addressed more at this time.
I am sorry I am not a doctor and didn't spend years in medical learning about life threatening conditions to pregnant woman. Does this make me only care about basics? No. If that was all I cared about I wouldn't even think about the "grey area" in between. And I wouldn't say, that I would look more into health issues. No I don't know a lot about health issues life threatening to the mother. But I am not saying that in no way should a woman not be allowed if she is truly in a health situation that is seriously life threatening at that point. I am saying absolutely no 3rd trimester. Give the baby a chance at living cuz at that point there is a possibility they will live.
You think infant ICUs are the only ones that get overcrowded? I very seriously doubt that. And ERs are crowded all the time. Does that mean it is ok to not treat someone? No.
And absolutely no, "i got pregnant and don't want it" so I am going to have an abortion. And unfortunately MORE people have abortions because of that reason than because of life threatening health issues.
If it has to do with something being wrong with the child...I think nature should take it's course and not take it into your own hands. Would you kill your Grandma cuz she was terminally ill? So why would you do that to your child? And in that case you are also changing the topic, because I thought the point of this thread had to do with the "health of the mother" not the "health of the baby"
And about diabetes. Gestational diabetes affects the mother in the 3rd trimester. Because it is late in pregnancy, as long as you take care of yourself, the baby does not have any negative effects. About it causing you to have diabetes after? Not likely that it is what "causes" you to have it after or to reoccur later in life. By coming out during pregnancy it shows that you have a tendency to have insulin resistance. And whether or not you actually get pregnant you are just as likely to develop type 2 diabetes later in life anyways. Sorry I don't think it is right to kill a baby because you might have to change your diet and lifestyle to live healthier. If you find out you have gestational diabetes and abort thinking it will fix you, and so you don't catch it later. Well it is too late. You already know your body has insulin resistence, and you could still get type 2 later on even if you didn't carry the child to term.
And I do believe there are far more important issues that need to be addressed more at this time.
I am sorry I am not a doctor and didn't spend years in medical learning about life threatening conditions to pregnant woman. Does this make me only care about basics? No. If that was all I cared about I wouldn't even think about the "grey area" in between. And I wouldn't say, that I would look more into health issues. No I don't know a lot about health issues life threatening to the mother. But I am not saying that in no way should a woman not be allowed if she is truly in a health situation that is seriously life threatening at that point. I am saying absolutely no 3rd trimester. Give the baby a chance at living cuz at that point there is a possibility they will live.
You think infant ICUs are the only ones that get overcrowded? I very seriously doubt that. And ERs are crowded all the time. Does that mean it is ok to not treat someone? No.
And absolutely no, "i got pregnant and don't want it" so I am going to have an abortion. And unfortunately MORE people have abortions because of that reason than because of life threatening health issues.
If it has to do with something being wrong with the child...I think nature should take it's course and not take it into your own hands. Would you kill your Grandma cuz she was terminally ill? So why would you do that to your child? And in that case you are also changing the topic, because I thought the point of this thread had to do with the "health of the mother" not the "health of the baby"
And about diabetes. Gestational diabetes affects the mother in the 3rd trimester. Because it is late in pregnancy, as long as you take care of yourself, the baby does not have any negative effects. About it causing you to have diabetes after? Not likely that it is what "causes" you to have it after or to reoccur later in life. By coming out during pregnancy it shows that you have a tendency to have insulin resistance. And whether or not you actually get pregnant you are just as likely to develop type 2 diabetes later in life anyways. Sorry I don't think it is right to kill a baby because you might have to change your diet and lifestyle to live healthier. If you find out you have gestational diabetes and abort thinking it will fix you, and so you don't catch it later. Well it is too late. You already know your body has insulin resistence, and you could still get type 2 later on even if you didn't carry the child to term.
Well, the fact that SOME Muslims are terrorists clearly means ALL Muslims are terrorists. 
You know, in the same way that the North Ireland "troubles" and the Spanish Inquisition prove that since SOME Christians are terrorists, ALL Christians are terrorists.
Here's an awesome video of some McCain supporters blasting a jerk selling "OH NOES MUSLIMS" bumper stickers:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1417423198?bctid=1866657225
I wish all McCain supporters were like this.
You know, in the same way that the North Ireland "troubles" and the Spanish Inquisition prove that since SOME Christians are terrorists, ALL Christians are terrorists.
Here's an awesome video of some McCain supporters blasting a jerk selling "OH NOES MUSLIMS" bumper stickers:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1417423198?bctid=1866657225
I wish all McCain supporters were like this.
It does. But there's a point where they cross. Again, you haven't gone back and read the accounts earlier. Fine, I'm summarize: a woman with fibroid tumors and a baby with no lungs. A woman with psychotic breaks and a baby with no brain. Would I kill my grandmother because she was ill? No. But then my grandmother, I assume, as lived a long life, full of experiences, and has her own opinion on these matters, moreover, I also assume that her potential to continue living is not measured in hours. And, I also assume, is not attached to my body and causing me medcial issues. A baby that CAN NOT live, that will die at birth or shortly thereafter, and is causing serious health problems to the mother, is an entirely different thing.
I'm mostly making a point about the lack of a health exception. You clearly know more about gestational diabetes than I do. I'm trying to point out that you can have intersections of circumstance that make the lack of a health exception particularly problematic. I'll assume that you don't think mental illness is a good reason to abort a baby. Fine, there's a good arguement for that. But to abort a baby that will DIE soon after birth, no doubt about it? (the longest an anaencephalic baby has ever lived was just shy of 2 years, with drastic intervention. Most die, with care or without, within hours, if they are not stillborn). Or perhaps my fiance's mother should have risked those fibroid tumors causing her serious harm . . . to give birth to a baby that would die a gasping death minutes afterwards? Why? What's the point? And do you think the government should force these women to go through this? To risk their health to give birth to a baby (a baby they wanted) only to watch it die in front of them?
I'm making a point of these complicated cases for a reason: that it is not black and white, that "health exception"/"no health exception" is not an easy question. That risks that make sense with a healthy baby make no sense with one that is already dying. Mostly, that these are calls that the law should not be making.
Edit: I'm not arguing whether you should, or should not, vote for McCain. At this point I'm making another point: that the law is a blunt instrument, and that many, on both sides, but especially on the pro-life side, have strong feelings and little information, and moreover, that political leaders have very little information . . . and a great incentive to whip up people's feelings to get them to vote for them. "Vote for me and I will save babies!" I can't argue with that. Unfortunately, the result could easily be poorly written laws that will have horrible consequences for people or are either perfectly innocent or who are making decisions that most people would make under those circumstances. That's really my point. McCain probably knows nothing about women's health (why would he?) but he's willing to make laws about it.
I'm mostly making a point about the lack of a health exception. You clearly know more about gestational diabetes than I do. I'm trying to point out that you can have intersections of circumstance that make the lack of a health exception particularly problematic. I'll assume that you don't think mental illness is a good reason to abort a baby. Fine, there's a good arguement for that. But to abort a baby that will DIE soon after birth, no doubt about it? (the longest an anaencephalic baby has ever lived was just shy of 2 years, with drastic intervention. Most die, with care or without, within hours, if they are not stillborn). Or perhaps my fiance's mother should have risked those fibroid tumors causing her serious harm . . . to give birth to a baby that would die a gasping death minutes afterwards? Why? What's the point? And do you think the government should force these women to go through this? To risk their health to give birth to a baby (a baby they wanted) only to watch it die in front of them?
I'm making a point of these complicated cases for a reason: that it is not black and white, that "health exception"/"no health exception" is not an easy question. That risks that make sense with a healthy baby make no sense with one that is already dying. Mostly, that these are calls that the law should not be making.
Edit: I'm not arguing whether you should, or should not, vote for McCain. At this point I'm making another point: that the law is a blunt instrument, and that many, on both sides, but especially on the pro-life side, have strong feelings and little information, and moreover, that political leaders have very little information . . . and a great incentive to whip up people's feelings to get them to vote for them. "Vote for me and I will save babies!" I can't argue with that. Unfortunately, the result could easily be poorly written laws that will have horrible consequences for people or are either perfectly innocent or who are making decisions that most people would make under those circumstances. That's really my point. McCain probably knows nothing about women's health (why would he?) but he's willing to make laws about it.
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I think abortions are terrible, I would never have one (not that I could even if I wanted to) and I would do my best to talk someone out of it because I do believe life is a miracle and should be embraced, not looked at as some type of disease.
BUT, it is a personal decision, if you want to do it, you live with the consequences, mental and physical that come along with it. I would hope I'm never in a position where an abortion is even an option, but for those that it is, I do feel for. it can't be easy and for the few that it is easy for, well they will get taken care of in the end.
BUT, it is a personal decision, if you want to do it, you live with the consequences, mental and physical that come along with it. I would hope I'm never in a position where an abortion is even an option, but for those that it is, I do feel for. it can't be easy and for the few that it is easy for, well they will get taken care of in the end.