NILIF vs PILIF

[Flyinsbt]

Sometimes (well most of the time) when my dog wants cuddling or petting, I want to provide it. I don't want to make them do something first. Sometimes they get a cookie because I want a darn cookie myself, and I'm in the pantry already so they can have one too. Sometimes I'm in a hurry and we don't all have to sit before we walk off the porch. I'm not going to turn into the person who can do that sort of thing, although again, if it works for someone, absolutely rock on. Maybe getting hard core about it would help Gusto's sniffing. We shall never know.

They way I see it, doing a "light" version of NILIF...makes it not NILIF. It makes it SomeStuffILIF. Or PILIF if you live in my house

Yep. When I'm sitting here at the computer, and Tess comes over and puts her paws up on my thigh, I want to just rub her ears, and kiss her snout, and get my kisses back. I don't want to demand she sit, or whatever, before she gets the lovin' she's asking for. When I'm in bed, and Pi lays on his back next to me, because he wants his belly rubbed, I just want to rub his belly, I don't want to ask for behaviors. If I'm clearing my pockets for laundry, and I find dog treats, I just want to toss them to the nearest dog, not go into training mode.

The alpha thing in NILIF makes me uncomfortable, because I don't believe in it, and the demanding that the dog do something puts too many restrictions on me. I just want to love my dogs. Maybe if we had serious behavior problems I'd feel differently. My dogs are unruly, but they're basically pretty easy to live with, by my standards. Sometimes I do ask for behaviors, if I'm in the mood for it, and they have basic rules of the house they understand. We get along fine without the need for a strict protocol.

 

[Laurelin]

They way I see it, doing a "light" version of NILIF...makes it not NILIF. It makes it SomeStuffILIF. Or PILIF if you live in my house

Yep, that's my thoughts too. I think a lot of people use the idea that to get stuff they want, the dog has to do stuff first. But that's not really NILIF if you only do that for one or two things.

 

[D&Co]

geez i'm glad there are others that have a problem with this constant enforcing of yr alpha pack leader drama that is so popular. i always shut up about my reservations about it but so glad that others have the same feelings.

it's good to know yr not the only freak out there

 

[Flyinsbt]

Okay, I read it. It's a pretty good book. I don't agree with her about everything, but it was well written and held my interest. PILIF is not a training protocol in the sense that NILIF is, it's just her philosophy. Her point being that rationing everything doesn't make for a good relationship, and doesn't necessarily address the issues that are intended to be addressed. And that some things should be free, ie; air, water, sufficient food, companionship.

It was mostly more about the philosophy, and her own issues with NILIF (which are similar to mine) than about specific training, but she did discuss some training stuff. The basic training technique she recommends to her clients, she calls SMART-50, which is "See, Mark, and Reward Training". Idea being that the dog gets 50 treats per day for performing desirable behaviors. If it's difficult for a family to do 50 per day, she'll work them up to it starting at a smaller number. Behaviors can be during a training session, or captured during normal daily activities. (she comments, sort of jokingly, that she's thought of referring to it as rewarding everything but the 3 most obnoxious behaviors the dog has. Which I have to say, would probably work pretty well at extinguishing a behavior you really wanted to be rid of.)

Nothing really ground-breaking, just a different way of looking at the NILIF advice which is commonly given, and some ideas of how to apply other techniques. Probably not of interest to someone who isn't already a dog training geek.

 

[sillysally]

I guess I don't seen it as an "alpha" thing as much as a respect thing. I want my animals to respect me and humans in general. I want my dogs to show veterinary staff respect when I'm not present whether the staff member has earned it or not. I want my horse to allow one of the barn kids to take him out to the paddock while respecting her personal space whether that kid is asking the horse to or not. NILIF is one (not the only, or the best for every person) way to help achieve that goal with dogs.

I see NILIF as-you want these funawesomegreat things, you just respect my rules (which are sit to go outside, down for a treat, etc). You do these things for me, I give you these things that you want. It's give and take. I realize that "alpha" is always a loaded term with dogs. However, in dog/human relationships humans are always going to have the upper hand one way or another, whatever name you want to give that upper hand. It is the human that is setting boundaries and rules, humans that are deciding which manners are important, humans who are deciding the feeding schedule, humans who are deciding what fun things the dog does when, humans who even get to decide what natural behaviors it is acceptable for the dog to express. I simply see NILIF as one effective and humane way of teaching and enforcing those boundaries.

As far as "working" for affection--I have an extremely affectionate lab that can be pushy about his affection. Jack will shove his face into my face, under my hand, and under my arm and pretty much demand pets. I love cuddling with him but could live without full contact affection demands. I don't see what is wrong with asking him to do something other than shove his nose into my eyeball before I pet him?

 

[Flyinsbt]

Well one thing she addresses is that if, say, your dog comes up and paws at you for attention, so you request a sit, and then pet your dog... you're not actually teaching the dog not to paw at you for attention, you're building a behavior chain that involves a sit. The dog has no real reason not to paw at you. If that behavior is one you don't want, you should be finding ways to avoid it altogether.

She's not saying not to reward for desirable behaviors, quite the opposite. Just that the very controlling mindset of NILIF, in which anything the dog wants has to be earned, may not be the best way to go.

 

[Maxy24]

I actually like NILIF and didn't know it was supposed to be alpha stuff until recently. I like that it gets your dog used to following commands outside of a formal training session. I like that it teaches the dog to follow commands even when aroused (excited for walk, sees a squirrel it wants to chase, etc.). I like that it teaches the dog impulse control and to look to his owner when he wants something instead of just going for it (if a strict protocol is followed).

But I don't think it's one of those magical "now your dog sees you as alpha and thus is cured of all behavior problems" things that dominance based trainers like to think they have. I just think your dog will follow his commands better and have better impulse control, which will make training much easier.

 

[sassafras]

I don't really have a strong attachment to NILIF... I don't practice it as a rule although I think there are some dogs that benefit from it. I've never really seen it practiced as hard core as some people seem to see it, though, nor as an "alpha" based kind of thing... I've always thought of it and seen it practiced as a "you want this stuff from me, you do this stuff FOR me". Which doesn't seem all that heavy-handed.

So honestly the SMART-50 thing seems like a bit of semantics to me. In either case, you are looking for the dog to do something desirable before doling out a reward of some kind. I guess if it makes people feel more comfortable to approach it from one philosophical angle instead of another (busting the dog being good instead of telling the dog to do something), whatevs. That's what makes the world go 'round. But it just doesn't seem that earth-shattering to me.


That she specifies that air should be free did make me giggle a little, though.

 

[Oko]

That she specifies that air should be free did make me giggle a little, though.

I always make Wesley sit before I release my clutches on his throat for a breath. Doesn't everyone?


But honestly, I think the think is the original NILIF was too hardcore (*continues squeezing Wesley's throat*), and people have dialed it back a little into what most people are thinking of when they hear/use it, so there's a lack of clarity there. Because I do know people who have used it in the sense of restricting social interaction a lot, and that just doesn't seem like a fun relationship to have.

 

[Laurelin]

I don't really have a strong attachment to NILIF... I don't practice it as a rule although I think there are some dogs that benefit from it. I've never really seen it practiced as hard core as some people seem to see it, though, nor as an "alpha" based kind of thing... I've always thought of it and seen it practiced as a "you want this stuff from me, you do this stuff FOR me". Which doesn't seem all that heavy-handed.

So honestly the SMART-50 thing seems like a bit of semantics to me. In either case, you are looking for the dog to do something desirable before doling out a reward of some kind. I guess if it makes people feel more comfortable to approach it from one philosophical angle instead of another (busting the dog being good instead of telling the dog to do something), whatevs. That's what makes the world go 'round. But it just doesn't seem that earth-shattering to me.


That she specifies that air should be free did make me giggle a little, though.

I think it probably will depend on your experience. I've always heard NILIF used in conjunction with dominance terms: the dog is the lower ranking member so you control what he wants and the dog learns it's place. Asking for affection is the dog trying to out-rank you. etc.

I also see people in practice training all the time that get hung up on 'rules'. They miss out on good opportunities to reward the dog because the dog wasn't perfectly right or doing exactly what they wanted but it was still something desirable that they should have rewarded. I've also seen excess rules and strict handlers really get a dog down and not wanting to work too. Yeah we'll probably argue that was an application error on the handler's behalf but I think a mindset change can help people see that training isn't always just about rules rules rules.

 

[sassafras]

Yeah we'll probably argue that was an application error on the handler's behalf but I think a mindset change can help people see that training isn't always just about rules rules rules.

Yea that's a good point.

 

[Flyinsbt]

The reason she specifies air should be free is in a story she relates from when she was training dolphins for the US Navy (mine detectors). One of her fellow trainers came up with the brilliant idea to spread a tarp on the water, so the dolphin he was working with was forced to go where he wanted or else be unable to breathe.

She also had a story about a dog (service dog, I believe) that's owner didn't want it to have free access to water, since it had to work to drink. Which is frankly, almost as bad.

One difference with the SMART-50 approach is that you aren't necessarily cueing the behaviors that you reward. In a NILIF program, you wouldn't reward a dog for lying quietly on it's bed, instead, you would deny it access to the bed unless it performed a cued behavior.

It's still not earth-shattering. All dog training comes down to rewarding behavior you want and/or punishing behavior you don't want. But what you are looking for in a NILIF program is a bit different than what you are looking for in a less control-oriented program.

 

[sillysally]

OK, nevermind, I see what you are saying--I was confused-lol

 

[BostonBanker]

I was formulating a reply in my head, but by the time I hit the last post, Laurelin and Flyinsbt had already said it.

I don't have an issue with NILIF as a practice (some of the reasoning behind it I think is a little hogwash, but the actual use of it doesn't bother me), it's just that, like I said, that isn't how I live with my dogs. I also have dogs that allow me to interact with them differently. When I glance over at Gusto entertaining himself with an antler and smile and tell him he's a good boy, he rolls his eye at me and wags his tail and chews harder. And the training I do with them when we are "working" carries over to real life if I need it to. Neither of my dogs is required to sit to go out the door; I've never done it as practice. I want them to get out the door and move so I can come through and close the door behind us. But they both know their crate games, so if I go to open the door and leave my hand on the handle without opening, they both will sit (and Gusto will start humming loudly, because This Is The Start of a Game!). So it's there if I need it, but it isn't something we do regularly.

I need to charge my Nook and see if this book is available there.

 

[Flyinsbt]

I need to charge my Nook and see if this book is available there.

Should be, I got it on my Kindle yesterday.