NILIF vs PILIF

[Shakou]

Only just started hearing about PILIF recently. Does anyone know about this and could you explain the concepts and what you think?

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/3476?SSAID=389818

 

[sassafras]

That article doesn't seem to explain that much about it, but as far as I can tell... Honestly it seems like kind of the same thing as NILIF except you're not specifically cuing any behaviors. You're still controlling rewards for behaviors you want to see.

 

[Shakou]

That article doesn't seem to explain that much about it, but as far as I can tell... Honestly it seems like kind of the same thing as NILIF except you're not specifically cuing any behaviors. You're still controlling rewards for behaviors you want to see.

Yeah, the article was the best online source I could find outside of conversation on various Facebook groups I'm in. I was hoping maybe someone else had more experience with it and could enlighten me more since it seems to be a somewhat new concept that's a spin off of NILIF.

 

[Maxy24]

I never read the book but I thought it was more that the author didn't like making a dog comply for every little thing, like affection. I also think she points out that NILIF is still a dominance based program and it's damaging to view our dogs in that light regardless of what methods you use to "gain dominance".

I didn't think PILIF was a training protocol like NILIF though, I just thought it was the name of the book because she is speaking out against NILIF? I'm sure she offers plenty of alternatives and her own training methodology. But like I said, I have not read the book so I don't really know.

 

[Shai]

Yeah, the article was the best online source I could find outside of conversation on various Facebook groups I'm in. I was hoping maybe someone else had more experience with it and could enlighten me more since it seems to be a somewhat new concept that's a spin off of NILIF.

Honestly just from reading the linked blurb, I don't see anything new about it at all other than the name. It's just what many of us have been doing all along -- pay attention, reward what you want to have repeated, enjoy your dog.

Most good trainers I know employing NILIF aren't as hardcore as the version she is criticizing unless they are trying to solve a particular problem that NILIF actually helps with, and they don't employ it in any sort of domineering sense. Once they pry up the edges of the problem a bit, they back off...the NILIF is used for a short defined period, and many times for a particular behavior rather than encompassing all aspects of life.

But then I haven't read the book, so maybe I'm overlooking some vital gem.

 

[Applebear]

She's trying to sell a book, probably why it's so vague. From what little I did read, all I can see is it's telling us our role is the dogs food source. We are to embrace this and feed them for behaviors we like...so another positive reinforcement book. The spin off is telling us NILIF is unnecessary bullying.

Stating it is cruel to have our dog sit before going out the door? I don't know, is it cruel to tell our kids to look both ways before crossing the street? I really don't see the big whoop. *shrug*

 

[Flyinsbt]

Stating it is cruel to have our dog sit before going out the door? I don't know, is it cruel to tell our kids to look both ways before crossing the street? I really don't see the big whoop. *shrug*

I don't see anywhere that it states that NILIF, or requiring a sit in particular, is "cruel", what I see in that brief article is the suggestion that it doesn't always work, and might need rethinking.

I've heard of the book before, and I didn't get the impression that it was a new training protocol, just the title of the book, and an explanation of how she trains. Haven't read it, so I can't be too specific, but I would say that I'm glad someone decided to question NILIF, because I've never been comfortable with it. Well, I've never used it.

I suppose we need someone who has actually read the book to weigh in before we'd know for sure if this is a "new" training protocol.

 

[Applebear]

I don't see anywhere that it states that NILIF, or requiring a sit in particular, is "cruel", what I see in that brief article is the suggestion that it doesn't always work, and might need rethinking.

I've heard of the book before, and I didn't get the impression that it was a new training protocol, just the title of the book, and an explanation of how she trains. Haven't read it, so I can't be too specific, but I would say that I'm glad someone decided to question NILIF, because I've never been comfortable with it. Well, I've never used it.

I suppose we need someone who has actually read the book to weigh in before we'd know for sure if this is a "new" training protocol.

Cruel is merely a poor choice of wording on my part, shrug...I was being a bit sarcastic and such. I *personally* don't like NILIF for affection [talk about ruining the moment with a sit/wait...no thanks], but I do like it for going out doors, treats and toys [I like it more for impulse control, I dig my fingers and hate chasing a dog that just darted out the door].

Eventually someone will read this book and spam it's secrets on the net.

Till then...

 

[Greenmagick]

I know of several people who I greatly admire as trainers/owners and they like this book a lot. I can not recall details of why right now beyond the superficial basics.

 

[sassafras]

I mean, I don't think NILIF needs to be a 24/7 way of life for anyone, but it can certainly be a useful tool for some dogs. Seems weird to write a whole book against it (if that's what the book is).

 

[BostonBanker]

I read a more in depth interview about the book a while ago and recall really liking what she had to say, but of course I can't find it anymore. This quote from a review is pretty much along the lines of what I remember:

Throughout the pages, Kathy layouts a handful of alternative methods to the NILIF protocol/philosophy, all of which gravitate around the central idea that we, humans, need to get SMART (See Mark and Reward (Training)) with our dogs offer. We must be active in the participation and become skilled partners and listeners.

So it seems more like using capturing as an over all training method for "life" stuff. It kind of goes along with something I remember hearing from Ian Dunbar in an interview where he basically said "Look at your dog every few minutes, and if what you are seeing is good, tell them."

NILIF may work great for some people; it would be a disaster for me. I've had a few people suggest it and Ruff Love for Gusto, and it's a hard line for me. It simply isn't how I live with my dogs.

This thread actually reminded me that I want to read this book - thanks!

 

[sassafras]

Aha, that sounds like something one of my trainers calls BUST YOUR DOG FOR BEING GOOD! She should write a book.

 

[xpaeanx]

In regards to BB's post: Hmmm.... I think I always just assumed everyone used capturing in conjunction with NILIF. My theory was always when the dog is doing what I want(even if not directly cued from me) they deserve a treat bc they earned it(and therefore it was not "free"). I also figure they need to learn what behaviors you actually like by giving rewards when they display them at any (appropriate) time.

 

[sassafras]

Personally I ascribe to the "you can have anything you want if you just go away and leave me alone FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WOULD YOU PLEASE STOP IT" school of training.

 

[xpaeanx]

Personally I ascribe to the "you can have anything you want if you just go away and leave me alone FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WOULD YOU PLEASE STOP IT" school of training.

I recently signed up for this school with Mom's dog. :lol-sign:

 

[sillysally]

I've found NILIF works very well for us. It has really given Sally (who does NOT like change) structure during times of moving and getting a puppy and has helped Jack (who has major impulse control issues) get ahold of himself and sometimes actually think before doing things. We don't do it hardcore all the time, but they must do something to get food, get let out the door, get their leashes on, etc.

I would have trouble implementing "catch them doing something right" as an everyday thing with Jack using food, because he is food motivated to a fault. If I treated him for laying quietly he would come unglued the second he realized I had food and would not settle down (the thing I wanted to encourage in the first place) for a long while. His other big motivators are praise (which also thrills him to the pint of excitement), fetching his toys (which works well for things other than settling), and cuddles. The last one is fine if I'm just hanging out, but if I want to do things while having him settle it's more difficult. He will be 7 this month and only in the last year have I been able to walk by him while he's laying down and make eye contact without him getting up to visit (though he does thump his tail). If I smile at him though he usually feels it necessary to get up.

 

[Laurelin]

Honestly, what does NILIF bring to the table if you take away the alpha/pack/dominance stuff in most versions (http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm)? To me NILIF is the mindset behind the thing: I am human, therefore I am alpha, and you do what I want because you're a lower ranking pack member. I control resources. That's what bothers me.

Strip that away and you're left with.... training? Take away the alpha mumbo jumbo and it pretty much just says if you have a behavior problem you don't like to get the dog to do something else that you do like instead then reward him. Ex: Dog door dashes. Instead of dashing, I ask for a behavior I like, a sit. Dog gets rewarded by being let outside.

The ONLY real 'epiphany' there for people that maybe aren't into dog training would be that you can use what the dog wants (going outside) as the reward instead of food.

I had a long post thought up in my head on the way home from work but I just don't wanna type it all out.

 

[stardogs]

I recommend a modified NILIF protocol to most of my clients. The very straight forward "have your dog say please by doing something for you before you do something for them" throughout the day really seems to make sense to them, moreso than a straight "catch your dog doing something right" plan, though I do often throw that in as well with dogs who really are wreaking havoc in the household.

 

[BostonBanker]

Strip that away and you're left with.... training?

That's kind of what I was thinking as I was walking the dogs and pondering NILIF tonight, assuming I'm reading you correctly.. I was thinking about the benefits people describe (mainly impulse control, which is a big thing to me), and I play so many impulse control games with my dogs, I think we get that "benefit" without having to do NILIF.

I've never read up a ton on NILIF, but I've always heard it discussed as "before the dog does something he wants/gets something he wants, he does something for you first". I've never heard it connected with shaping or anything of the sort, but issuing a command, getting the response and rewarding with what the dog wants.

Sometimes (well most of the time) when my dog wants cuddling or petting, I want to provide it. I don't want to make them do something first. Sometimes they get a cookie because I want a darn cookie myself, and I'm in the pantry already so they can have one too. Sometimes I'm in a hurry and we don't all have to sit before we walk off the porch. I'm not going to turn into the person who can do that sort of thing, although again, if it works for someone, absolutely rock on. Maybe getting hard core about it would help Gusto's sniffing. We shall never know.

They way I see it, doing a "light" version of NILIF...makes it not NILIF. It makes it SomeStuffILIF. Or PILIF if you live in my house

 

[stardogs]

Well I call my version "Benevolent Leadership" and I like "work to earn" better than NILIF, because, yea, in most cases there will always be some things that are free.