my GSD too much of a guard dog???

[Cassie Abbott]

I think people really really tend to exagerate dominance...

If he had a dominance issue he wouldnt listen to her. She says in first post that he is very obedient.

Going off of the little info provided and from past experience, I'd say it's more an issue of fear. I've read a few times that it's the fearful dogs that tend to be aggressive towards strangers, while the dominant ones tend to be more aggressive towards their owners. What makes a fear aggressive dog especially dangerous is when he acts on his fear rather than backing away from it. Some dogs only do this when cornered, some dogs do this as a first reaction.

 

[oriondw]

Going off of the little info provided and from past experience, I'd say it's more an issue of fear. I've read a few times that it's the fearful dogs that tend to be aggressive towards strangers

lol. Where did you read that

 

[Debi]

LOL...sorry..my dogs aren't acting on fear when they act aggressive to strangers. paleeese. they are being protective. ONLY when I say it is ok, are they ok.........it has nothing to do with fear. LOL

 

[Cassie Abbott]

LOL...sorry..my dogs aren't acting on fear when they act aggressive to strangers. paleeese. they are being protective. ONLY when I say it is ok, are they ok.........it has nothing to do with fear. LOL

I'm not talking about normal protectiveness. I'm talking about reacting out of unreasonable and unfounded fear to something that is normal. You're talking about a normal dog that is only being territorial, but once it gets the ok it's fine. I'm talking about dogs that react to uncomfortable situations in fear and ignore input from their owners, acting on their fear. Where's the humor in that?

 

[Cassie Abbott]

Where did you read that

I can't recall exactly where it was; in a couple of the books in my bookcase.

To me it makes perfect sense. A fearful dog is comfortable with it's owner and feels safe with them, so wouldn't be as likely to show aggression towards them. It's not until they get into an uncomfortable situation (strange people, strange places, etc) that they become aggressive because they are protecting themselves from perceived harm. Dominant dogs, on the other hand, are mainly concerned about the dynamics of their own "pack". They would show aggression to their owner who was acting "above their station" either because the dog is status seeking or already thinks it is alpha. These dogs don't need to aggress toward strangers because those people aren't within their "pack" and aren't threatening their position.

I agree with you that dominance is over diagnosed, but in reality there are really only two roots of aggression: fear or dominance, sometimes a combo of the two.

 

[Zoom]

Going off of the little info provided and from past experience, I'd say it's more an issue of fear. I've read a few times that it's the fearful dogs that tend to be aggressive towards strangers, while the dominant ones tend to be more aggressive towards their owners. What makes a fear aggressive dog especially dangerous is when he acts on his fear rather than backing away from it. Some dogs only do this when cornered, some dogs do this as a first reaction.

My trainer had an interesting take on this. She believes (from years of working to retrain aggressive dogs) that there is only fear-based aggression, not true fear-aggression. Once they make that move to bite, they have moved through the fear and into aggression. They may immediately retreat back into a fearful state, but they took the initiative to bite in the first place.

 

[oriondw]

but in reality there are really only two roots of aggression: fear or dominance, sometimes a combo of the two.

No.

 

[Renee750il]

I think what gets left out of the equation are dogs who are extremely duty and responsibility driven who see it as their JOB to take an offensive position. That offensive position gets labeled - I feel erroneously - as "aggression" when it is actually defensive guarding behaviour. If it were true aggression, boundaries would have no meaning and the dog would be on a 'seek and destroy' quest.

Often, it seems to me from observations, our dogs don't learn to trust OUR judgement about threats. That is our fault. They "read" us and if we're sending mixed or faulty messages, our dogs pick that up and a dog with a strong guarding/defending ethic will very often decide that he or she needs to step up and take care of the problem. It's not just the dog who needs to be evaluated and trained, it's the dog and the human and their interaction and relationship that needs evaluation and fine-tuning with the help of someone who understands this.

 

[Jynx]

It's not just the dog who needs to be evaluated and trained, it's the dog and the human and their interaction and relationship that needs evaluation and fine-tuning with the help of someone who understands this.

I totally agree with this.

I guess what bothers me about the OP, is the comment, the dog goes ballistic, and actually tried to "attack the car" the boyfriend was in?


I have had GSD's "forever",,and all of the ones I"ve had, will alert bark, race for the door if someone comes (stranger or friend), that in itself is a big deterrent to someone who doesn't know them.

They have never gone "ballistic" tho, they tend to be pretty good judges of character. As soon as I say "enough",,it's done, you can walk in, they may sniff you for a second and be done with it.

Zoom, I find your trainers ideas interesting and something to think about.
I had one fear biter GSD, I wouldn't say he was 'fear aggressive' , but he wasn't a turn tail and run kinda dog either. His "thing" was, if a man (stranger) came to my door, he'd be rightthere, barking, IF said "man" walked in,,for example, ya know how your parents always told ya, let him sniff your hand? IF that "man" did that, he'd sniff, as soon as you pulled your hand back, he'd nail you and back off. IF however, he was totally ignored by said "man",,no eye contact NOTHING, he'd end up in their lap...(all 125lbs of him)

He definately had his quirks, but he functioned normally in public, well on a leash, (I think leash made him feel safe), ok with other dogs, etc.

In the end I know his "quirk" was fear based, but I had never really thought about getting past the fear, and going right into aggression with the 'bite'.
Diane

 

[Doberluv]

I think what gets left out of the equation are dogs who are extremely duty and responsibility driven who see it as their JOB to take an offensive position. That offensive position gets labeled - I feel erroneously - as "aggression" when it is actually defensive guarding behaviour. If it were true aggression, boundaries would have no meaning and the dog would be on a 'seek and destroy' quest.

Often, it seems to me from observations, our dogs don't learn to trust OUR judgement about threats. That is our fault. They "read" us and if we're sending mixed or faulty messages, our dogs pick that up and a dog with a strong guarding/defending ethic will very often decide that he or she needs to step up and take care of the problem. It's not just the dog who needs to be evaluated and trained, it's the dog and the human and their interaction and relationship that needs evaluation and fine-tuning with the help of someone who understands this.

I agree with that 100%

Once they make that move to bite, they have moved through the fear and into aggression. They may immediately retreat back into a fearful state, but they took the initiative to bite in the first place.
__________________

I aggree too with this. I think they swich back and forth through emotions. I don't think they have two emotions going on at the same, just like with us. I think we too, switch back and forth within our limbic system. We may be angry as hell and then we cry (Some of us. lol) and then we're sad, then we may lash out in anger and then feel embarrassed or again sad. I don't really think they all happen simultaneously. It's more like little frames in our vision...how we see things. It's not really all one fluid thing, but a series of frames. And that's how I think emotions work too. So, the dog who is fearful, may lash out and then retreat as his emotions change frames.

But, the question is.......is it the emotion of fear, which is primary as the basis for this kind of behavior...or foundation? A dog who is confident, strong and fearless hardly has to use aggression actions at all. (I'm not talking about trained attack dogs...as they're not really being "angry" at all...I'm talking about pet dogs) They're secure enough in normal situations....what they evaluate as normal. And that's why extreme socialization and conditioning is so important in a pup's critical period and on. Pups that miss out on that during that birth to 12-16 weeks never can build a basis of sufficient security and stability. They never "imprint" to what is normal and what isn't.

I'm not saying that regular barking, growling, snarling is being insecure...no, not at all. That's the dog doing his job...to make noise to scare away the bad guy. I was meaning the attack and retreat kind of thing.

Anyhow, this is getting off topic. (although, different kinds of emotions and reasons are relevant because it helps sift through things to anaylize a particular situation, I guess) The thing is, the OP's dog needs to learn how to temper things down a bit and it needs to be handled expertly. So, a good behaviorist would be a way to get a handle on this. Best of luck.

 

[Bahamutt99]

Just going on gut instinct here, but it sounds like the dog has crossed the line between protective and over-protective, or posessive.

IMO, the best guard dogs will watch a situation quietly, be ready to greet new people, and just keep their eyes open. My best guard dog is also extremely people-friendly. He will alert to situations that are abnormal, and place himself between the family and the object of his attentions. Compare that to an over-protective dog that I used to have, who would mouth off at any stranger, and ended up mauling a trespassing kid. Not good. Sounds like you need to get a better handle on his behavior. I wish you luck.

 

[Bahamutt99]

lol. Where did you read that

You can laugh, but I was thinking fear, too, as a possibility. "Macho"-type dogs will tend to bluff when they are afraid, rather than shrink and run away. Its a "I'm going to get you before you get me" tactic.

 

[Doberluv]

It is thought that most aggression is based in fear. That is not to say, I don't think, that every kind of aggression is "fear-aggression," the lash out and retreat. But that most aggression has the catalyst of fear....fear of losing it's territory, fear of losing it's food, fear of losing something else...the dog's humans, fear of being unable to reproduce. (in the case of a dog who is reproductive) ...that sort of thing....a defense system. The dog may not act afraid at all. And indeed may be quite confident. And that's a good thing to be confident. But the dog still needs to be taught what is normal and when to draw the line. And what kind of emotions are probably going on in the dog need to be evaluated by a competent behaviorist. No one really knows what is going on inside their brains, but the best shot is with a competent professional.

 

[oriondw]

Just going on gut instinct here, but it sounds like the dog has crossed the line between protective and over-protective, or posessive.

IMO, the best guard dogs will watch a situation quietly, be ready to greet new people, and just keep their eyes open. My best guard dog is also extremely people-friendly. He will alert to situations that are abnormal, and place himself between the family and the object of his attentions. Compare that to an over-protective dog that I used to have, who would mouth off at any stranger, and ended up mauling a trespassing kid. Not good. Sounds like you need to get a better handle on his behavior. I wish you luck.

What you describe is not really a guard dog though...

 

[dr2little]

You really need to seek professional help. What you've described, particularly with respect to your dog trying to attack your bf's car, is not OK and will without a doubt escalate without intervention.
Protection does not and shoud not look like what you've shared.

Like what Doberluv's already said, this isn't something that can be diagnosed on a forum. Someone (a certified professional) needs to SEE what's actually happening in order to help you to change the way that your dog is reacting to triggers.

 

[mamamia]

It sounds extreme to me. How old is this dog? How much socialization did he have as a very young pup? How many "strangers" visited? It sounds like not enough. .

he's 2 1/2 yrs old. i just got him afew weeks ago. from what i know he met a lot of people in his life. but who knows. his prev. owner...i didnt trust her. so..i dunno

 

[mamamia]

well...my dog does all mentioned, too when someone comes to the door. he could take the Oscar for a performance of KILLER DOG. he stops when I say it's ok for the person to come inside, so I've never minded. but...he bares teeth...growls...hair up on neck...and MAJOR barking in his 'man bark' to ANY person coming on our property. I'm not sure what everyone is saying here...is that bad? I also like it...it makes me feel safe, too. you are NOT going to get anywhere near my door with ease. I don't find it a liability as long as my dog can be controlled. not sure if that's the case with the OP or not. but, like her........I welcome that 'attitude'. I like that my dogs are not generally fond of any stranger.

he does stop when i tell him to. and he comes back when i call him

 

[dr2little]

he does stop when i tell him to. and he comes back when i call him

It's great that he stops when you tell him to but what you've described is way over the top. It's even more of a worry that you've only had him a couple of week and already he's taking charge to this degree (even if he can be called off).
Are you considering getting some help with him?

 

[Bahamutt99]

What you describe is not really a guard dog though...

Which one? I think our Dogo is a hell of a guard dog. He may not be an area guardian, but home guardian? Try and get past him.

 

[squirtsmom]

I agree with the professional help. We had a behaviorist for Squirt, our pitbull terrier, and it worked wonders. Now it is the poodle who give me grief.