Labradoodles and other dogs mixed with poodles.
- Thread starter juliefurry
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I am against mixed breeding because most of the mixed breed breeders that you find out there are irresponsible and are just breeding because they're money hungry. They claim their dogs are "hypoallergenic" and "nonshedding" and a bunch of other buloni.
Mixed breed breeders claim their dogs will never end up in shelters because they sell them to good homes...funny, I just recently found a "labradoodle" on petfinder...a few months ago I found a "goldendoodle" puppy...and there are quite a few "pekeapoos" and "shihpoos" too.
Unless you purchase from a breeder who does all necessary health tests, is breeding to improve the "breed" and is trying to get this breed accepted with your national dog breed club, and has strict contracts with buyers, that breeder, is, in my opinion, irresponsible.
Mixed breed breeders claim their dogs will never end up in shelters because they sell them to good homes...funny, I just recently found a "labradoodle" on petfinder...a few months ago I found a "goldendoodle" puppy...and there are quite a few "pekeapoos" and "shihpoos" too.
Unless you purchase from a breeder who does all necessary health tests, is breeding to improve the "breed" and is trying to get this breed accepted with your national dog breed club, and has strict contracts with buyers, that breeder, is, in my opinion, irresponsible.
There is only one situation where I think breeding mutts is acceptable, and that's when responsible people are trying to breed a dog for a specific working purpose. In the rural ranching area of Texas where I live, working herding/guarding dogs are popular and very highly regarded. Many of the ranchers consider breed a secondary characteristic: they look for ability. They will often breed their outstanding guardian Great Pyr with, say, an Anatolian of renowned ability. They don't do it for the money; they do it because they have a need for a flock guardian. You'll never see the puppies advertised in the newspaper, because other ranchers will be fighting over them before they're even born.
Just playing devil's advocate here, so bear with me (and it's not meant to stir the pot...just something to think about).
If the same standard we hold towards mutts/pure-breeds was held towards people, a good deal of us wouldn't be here today...and before anyone says 'that's different', no it isn't. We all come from the first people to walk out of Africa and the different looks, shapes & adaptations that different races of people have now come from 2 things. The genetic code of the groups of people who left africa and how the environment has shaped us. The only difference between us and dogs (we're talking the theory here) is that dogs also have people trying to breed for specific looks/work qualities.
Now, I have nothing against mutts. In fact I've posted several times that I like them. Where the problem comes from is the people who breed them...and not all people either, I'm sure. I'd also like to point out that if pure-breed dogs were so magnificent (and I'm not knocking purebreeds either), there would be no health problems and all breeders of any breed would ALL be responsible - which we all know isn't true. There's also the points that a) mutts do live in homes and don't all end up in shelters and b) purebreed dogs also end up in shelters and ALSO rescues set up for that specific breed (a luxury mutt's don't seem to have).
Anywho, it's just something to ponder.
If the same standard we hold towards mutts/pure-breeds was held towards people, a good deal of us wouldn't be here today...and before anyone says 'that's different', no it isn't. We all come from the first people to walk out of Africa and the different looks, shapes & adaptations that different races of people have now come from 2 things. The genetic code of the groups of people who left africa and how the environment has shaped us. The only difference between us and dogs (we're talking the theory here) is that dogs also have people trying to breed for specific looks/work qualities.
Now, I have nothing against mutts. In fact I've posted several times that I like them. Where the problem comes from is the people who breed them...and not all people either, I'm sure. I'd also like to point out that if pure-breed dogs were so magnificent (and I'm not knocking purebreeds either), there would be no health problems and all breeders of any breed would ALL be responsible - which we all know isn't true. There's also the points that a) mutts do live in homes and don't all end up in shelters and b) purebreed dogs also end up in shelters and ALSO rescues set up for that specific breed (a luxury mutt's don't seem to have).
Anywho, it's just something to ponder.
By that logic, there's no point in breeding champion show dogs either. There are never guarantees as to what the offspring will be like.
Every single dog breed in existance was created by people trying to do the same thing...to continue and enhance desired, valuable traits. Why is it suddenly completely wrong? With the ranchers I met, the dogs are not pets. They are essential workers. If a good chunk of your income was dependent upon the ability of your dogs, you would do whatever you could think of to help improve that. And I see no harm in that. I've also met a sledder (sorry, don't know the technical term for sled dog people) who does the same thing on occassion.
There is also a ranching family nearby who specializes in raising bulls for stud, and they actually have their own line of cattle dogs they use. From what I understand, the foundation is blue heeler with a bit of pit bull mixed in for tenacity. It does take a lot of nerve for a 40 lb dog to face a bull the size of a Volkswagon.
Now, for the casual dog owner, backyard breeder or moneymaking scheme, I completely disagree with the deliberate breeding of mutts.
Every single dog breed in existance was created by people trying to do the same thing...to continue and enhance desired, valuable traits. Why is it suddenly completely wrong? With the ranchers I met, the dogs are not pets. They are essential workers. If a good chunk of your income was dependent upon the ability of your dogs, you would do whatever you could think of to help improve that. And I see no harm in that. I've also met a sledder (sorry, don't know the technical term for sled dog people) who does the same thing on occassion.
There is also a ranching family nearby who specializes in raising bulls for stud, and they actually have their own line of cattle dogs they use. From what I understand, the foundation is blue heeler with a bit of pit bull mixed in for tenacity. It does take a lot of nerve for a 40 lb dog to face a bull the size of a Volkswagon.
Now, for the casual dog owner, backyard breeder or moneymaking scheme, I completely disagree with the deliberate breeding of mutts.
Professional breeders know that they might have to breed their dogs a few times to get the characteristics they are after. They are expert, I just doubt that farm people have any clue about dog breeding, and breeding two dogs hoping to get other dogs with the same working traits seem just not very realistic to me. That's why breeds were made, and professional breeders should be the ones breeding dogs.
It's just my impression, I'm not an expert or anything.
It's just my impression, I'm not an expert or anything.
just wanted to point out that the australian cattle dog has some bull terrier and dingo in it for tenacity, if the family you are talking about wanted a good cattle dog they shouldnt have had to mix in pit bull for that, they should have just found good cattle dog breeder who bred for actually herding cattle.
Then the show breeders should not breed several times if they know that it is just bringing more into the world. Just because they are show people, doesn't automatically give them the right to bring more dogs into the world anymore than it does to BYB. Good show breeders know what to look for and when to breed, because they know that it will produce a Champ(s). They don't continually breed just "hoping" that 'this time will be the one!'
Just a quick question, and I apologize if I offend anyone. My family typically had three or five dogs at any time when I was growing up, mostly mutts but a couple close-to-pure German Shepherds as well. The mutts always had excellent health, the German Shepherds had hip problems. One currently has hip dysplasia so badly he can barely walk. Is this the benefit to keeping dogs pure that you are talking about? All of these "pure" breeds were originally created or developed by someone, so it's bad now? Just my $0.02.
Y
Where did you get the GS? Was it a responsible breeder? Someone who did the hip xrays on both parents? If you buy a purebred from a responsible breeder, who does all the apropriate health tests, xrays, and temperment tests; then hip dysplasia should not be an issue. If you bought from someone who did not preform those necessary tests then you are taking big chances.
Yes all breeds came from mutts, but have been refined into their own purpose. There is no need to breed designer mutts and mutts in general. Not with all the responsible pure bred breeders and all the full shelters. Thousands of dogs being gased because there is no room for them, yet you think it is ok to keep breeding these mutts. Check the shelteres they are full of mutts and purebreeds. Obviously the purebreeds are not from responsible breeders because they will always take a pup back rather than have it go to a shelter. Why add to the problem?
Then you have the trust factor; gooldendoodles, labradoodles are not always non shedding. Any breeder who claims this is plain lying. You might get a pup who tkaes more of the poodle traits and that is good but you may not and therefore it will still be a shedding dog. People who buy these mutts thinking they will never shed are in for a big surprise and where do the dogs go???? Shelters, pounds!!
yuckaduck, Even the best breeders who do all the proper testing and give health certificates have gotten genetic disasters from health cleared lines of purebred dogs. One lady had 2 dogs with perfect health clearances excellent rating the whole line never had a genetic health issue...she had a whole litter of HD (very severe) pups. Another lady I know bred her female to a top Newf in the states health cleared etc...only one of the pups cleared its hips and it turned out to have elbow dysplasia. Even the best breeders in the world are having huge problems with genetic problems. The breeders who don't have many problems are breeds with either a huge gene pool or have not been over bred yet. When you are breeding purebreds you start out with a small gene pool with few founder dogs...once you start breeding and take out defective dogs from the gene pool (say perchance wrong colored/mismarked etc.) then the gene pool is further reduced. Sometimes, a breeder will get a certain genetic disorder out of a breed only to have another one pop up. 
There has even been some new gaurantee's that some breeders with breeds with high risk genetic disease have put onto their guarantee...basically "as long as the dog can function as a pet"...so, basically even some big time highly respected breeders will consider some degree's of Hip Dysplasia to not be a huge concern as long as the dog can still function as a pet. At least from what I have heard and seen, genetic testing is not a guarantee that pups are not going to have a genetic disease.
There has even been some new gaurantee's that some breeders with breeds with high risk genetic disease have put onto their guarantee...basically "as long as the dog can function as a pet"...so, basically even some big time highly respected breeders will consider some degree's of Hip Dysplasia to not be a huge concern as long as the dog can still function as a pet. At least from what I have heard and seen, genetic testing is not a guarantee that pups are not going to have a genetic disease. 
In the UK a LARGE proportion of dogs are what you call "mutts".. Crossbred and mongrel. They are largely the FIRST choice for a lot of people, and are MUCH loved and cherished. Not everyone wants a pedigree dog, I myself am not interested in owning one.
And as for the health side of things.... Well.. If we can talk science and genes here, "Mutts", being what they are - a MIX of dogs, breeds whatever, have a WIDER gene pool to choose from. Little fluffys ancestors are from far off and different places, so, the chances of 'that genetic disease' becomes watered down and so, LESS likely.
Pedigree dogs have a TINY gene pool to choose from... I'm sure if you followed every breed back to its origins they would all come from 2 original dogs (roughly).. So, the disease element is not watered down, therefore a LARGER risk.
Of course, that is not to say "Mutts" won't get an ailment or pedigrees will! It is just a case of looking at probabilities and "Mutts" win those stakes.
As for breeding them for money, I don't know about that here in the UK... If people want to pay, buy a pedigree... Most "Mutts" I know were not sold.
And as for the health side of things.... Well.. If we can talk science and genes here, "Mutts", being what they are - a MIX of dogs, breeds whatever, have a WIDER gene pool to choose from. Little fluffys ancestors are from far off and different places, so, the chances of 'that genetic disease' becomes watered down and so, LESS likely.
Pedigree dogs have a TINY gene pool to choose from... I'm sure if you followed every breed back to its origins they would all come from 2 original dogs (roughly).. So, the disease element is not watered down, therefore a LARGER risk.
Of course, that is not to say "Mutts" won't get an ailment or pedigrees will! It is just a case of looking at probabilities and "Mutts" win those stakes.
As for breeding them for money, I don't know about that here in the UK... If people want to pay, buy a pedigree... Most "Mutts" I know were not sold.
Y
Athe said:
yuckaduck, Even the best breeders who do all the proper testing and give health certificates have gotten genetic disasters from health cleared lines of purebred dogs. One lady had 2 dogs with perfect health clearances excellent rating the whole line never had a genetic health issue...she had a whole litter of HD (very severe) pups. Another lady I know bred her female to a top Newf in the states health cleared etc...only one of the pups cleared its hips and it turned out to have elbow dysplasia. Even the best breeders in the world are having huge problems with genetic problems. The breeders who don't have many problems are breeds with either a huge gene pool or have not been over bred yet. When you are breeding purebreds you start out with a small gene pool with few founder dogs...once you start breeding and take out defective dogs from the gene pool (say perchance wrong colored/mismarked etc.) then the gene pool is further reduced. Sometimes, a breeder will get a certain genetic disorder out of a breed only to have another one pop up. There has even been some new gaurantee's that some breeders with breeds with high risk genetic disease have put onto their guarantee...basically "as long as the dog can function as a pet"...so, basically even some big time highly respected breeders will consider some degree's of Hip Dysplasia to not be a huge concern as long as the dog can still function as a pet. At least from what I have heard and seen, genetic testing is not a guarantee that pups are not going to have a genetic disease.
There has even been some new gaurantee's that some breeders with breeds with high risk genetic disease have put onto their guarantee...basically "as long as the dog can function as a pet"...so, basically even some big time highly respected breeders will consider some degree's of Hip Dysplasia to not be a huge concern as long as the dog can still function as a pet. At least from what I have heard and seen, genetic testing is not a guarantee that pups are not going to have a genetic disease.
If that is the case then as a responsible breeder she should have spay and neutered the bitch and the dog to assure of it never happening again with them. Sure things happen but responsible breeders take every precaution to ensure it does not happen. A irresponsible breeder would just keep breeding for the money and not care about the pups. That is what guarantees are for and as far as my opinion is if you buy a pup with little to no guarantee then you are setting yourself up for health, and temperment issues. JMO
Sorry for all the questions here, but I'm curious. Forgive my.... denseness.
Isn't it a case of "No testing = you take your chances"? I mean, sure, something like hip displasia can show up even in lines with minimal genetic history of it, but aren't the chances decreased? Isn't that the point of purebreeding?
The breeder we got Quincy from was very upfront about the breed. Apparently, the OFA won't certify a dog under two years old, but that some genetic problems can show up later in life. So, in the end, even with the certification of both parents for genetic problems, it's another case of "you take your chances"?
*sigh*, I think I'm confusing myself here. Bottom line, even with the certification on both his parents, I still worry about my dog.
Isn't it a case of "No testing = you take your chances"? I mean, sure, something like hip displasia can show up even in lines with minimal genetic history of it, but aren't the chances decreased? Isn't that the point of purebreeding?
The breeder we got Quincy from was very upfront about the breed. Apparently, the OFA won't certify a dog under two years old, but that some genetic problems can show up later in life. So, in the end, even with the certification of both parents for genetic problems, it's another case of "you take your chances"?
*sigh*, I think I'm confusing myself here. Bottom line, even with the certification on both his parents, I still worry about my dog.
Most times they are never bred again. But, some of these dogs producing genetic disasters are top champion show dogs. Then you get the law of genetics, once you take a dog from the purebred gene pool which btw is very small...the gene pool gets smaller and you then get newer and worse genetic diseases. Purebred dogs come from small gene pools, they were created by man from Mongrels but only with a few dogs used to create the "purebred" dog. My Newf has elbow dysplasia, he was neutered once they found out he had elbow dysplasia...that didn't stop him from becoming a champion in 3 countries. Show breeders can be very irresponsible as well. I think people have this strange idea of only puppy mills and stupid people who think they have a nice dog being irresponsible breeders. I have seen more show breeders being irresponsible...just look at some of the horrible breeding you see in the show rings. Shepherds that are overly angulated, sorry, but I just don't find that healthy at all. Just what I have seen and my opinion.
Meggie, you certainly do have reason to be concerned. There are many dogs that are OFA certified that still develop HD later in life.
Meggie, you certainly do have reason to be concerned. There are many dogs that are OFA certified that still develop HD later in life.