Labradoodles and other dogs mixed with poodles.

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#81
AndrewF said:
Talk about an interesting discussion!!! :)

Just my 0.02, One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet - but is an important distinction between wild animals and domestic dogs is that people created the breeds of dogs we have now (not including wolves etc...). And, as good as breeders intentions can be with a specific breed now, they're working with limited clay so-to-speak. In otherwords, just because Breeder x is responsible about they're selection of breeding stock doesn't mean that breeders 100 years ago showed the same concern. No new blood is being injected into pure-breeds and as much as it's talked about that breeding should be done to further the breed, what new blood-lines are being introduced to truely further the breed?

With wolves, unhampered by people breeding them, are shaped by nature and the best suited to the environment survivies. Domestic pure-breeds are shaped by people and traditionally they were bred for certain characteristics - herding ability or a certain looks as examples - not nessessarily because they were great with children or would be friendly and not because they were the fittest, best suited animals to a specific environment. As a result, furthering the breed means trying to make the most of the genetic limitations within the breed.
Very good points, Andrew. I think the same issues regarding genetic health occur in any species in which man has taken an active (over-active, LOL?) role. When you breed for certain qualities you often are limiting the gene pool even more to reproduce those qualities, which of course also increases the risk of genetic abnormalities being reproduced as well. So, in a way, those genetic abnormalities are the price we pay for for getting a certain "look" in a dog, ya know?
 

Fran27

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#82
Yuck, I don't really get it. What kind of marriage are you in if you have no say about a family pet? Sorry I just don't understand it at all. I keep hearing 'it's my husband's dog so it's his decision', and it just baffles me. There is no way I would ever let my husband get rid of a pet... his pet or not... and he would NEVER expect me to.
 

Zoom

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#83
How come horses aren't as suseptible to things like this? I know there are some genetic disorders, but most of the guarantees I see are usually related to coloration. There are numerous examples of poor breeding out there, that's where cow hocks and ewe necks show up, but there's not the conformation epidemics we're seeing with dogs.
 
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#84
Zoom said:
How come horses aren't as suseptible to things like this? I know there are some genetic disorders, but most of the guarantees I see are usually related to coloration. There are numerous examples of poor breeding out there, that's where cow hocks and ewe necks show up, but there's not the conformation epidemics we're seeing with dogs.
That's a good question, and unfortunately I don't know enough about orsegenetics to know the answer, LOL! I wonder, though, if maybe there are some genetic linked diseases common to certain breeds of horse? Maybe horses just have fewer natural genetic abnormalities than dogs do? I'll have to talk to my vet friends about this, because it is an interesting question, Zoom! And hey, what about pure-bred cattle, too? Maybe there it's a numbers issue - more cows of a certain breed, larger genetic pool? Rats, now you have me thinking - I'm gonna have to do some research! :)
 

Athe

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#85
How come horses aren't as suseptible to things like this? I know there are some genetic disorders, but most of the guarantees I see are usually related to coloration. There are numerous examples of poor breeding out there, that's where cow hocks and ewe necks show up, but there's not the conformation epidemics we're seeing with dogs
Most horse breeders are not concerned with "purebred" horses...many horse breeders will breed to just a good healthy Stallion. They are not as anal as dog breeders. There are many genetic disease which affect purebred horses,for example my sister's purebred quarter horse has HYPP genetic disorder which was caused by breeding for horses with small hooves. When people are breeding horses (at least in my area, they are not too concerned about purebreed as they are about good genes. Most horses are just grade horses which means they are just mongrels. There are some purebred horse circles that are quite anal about blood lines like dog breeders and they have caused some genetic diseases by purebred breeding and creating skittish fearful horses with behavioral problems. I really don't know much more about horse breeding except that on a whole people are more interested in what a horse can do rather than pretty colors etc. Cows are the same, they have started crossbreeding cattle as well as they have found they were creating genetic problems and poor health by purebred breeding. I read some where on the internet about the problems they were encountering with purebred breeding in livestock and horses. Most times though, most horses you see are either Mongrels with no purebred breeding, crossbreeding which is done quite often and then you have specialized purebred breeding. I have heard of some people refer to some of these purebred horses (Standard bred, Arabian's etc) as being high strung.
Another example of purebred breeding is our domestic cat. There never was a reason to do any purebred breeding in cats in the past. They just hung around the barn and took care of rodents. Only within the past few decades have people started taking small groups of mongrels and creating purebred cats by inbreeding etc. I see so many genetic diseases in cats, where years ago when no one really owned a purebred cat around my area never had a genetic disease.
 
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yuckaduck

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#86
Athe said:
Most horse breeders are not concerned with "purebred" horses. There are many genetic disease which affect purebred horses,for example my sister's purebred quarter horse has HYPP genetic disorder which was caused by breeding for horses with small hooves. When people are breeding horses (at least in my area, they are not too concerned about purebreed as they are about good genes. Most horses are just grade horses which means they are just mongrels. There are some purebred horse circles that are quite anal about blood lines like dog breeders and they have caused some genetic diseases by purebred breeding and creating skittish fearful horses with behavioral problems. I really don't know much more about horse breeding except that on a whole people are more interested in what a horse can do rather than pretty colors etc. Cows are the same, they have started crossbreeding cattle as well as they have found they were creating genetic problems and poor health by purebred breeding. I read some where on the internet about the problems they were encountering with purebred breeding in livestock and horses. Most times though, most horses you see are either Mongrels with no purebred breeding, crossbreeding which is done quite often and then you have specialized purebred breeding. I have heard of some people refer to some of these purebred horses (Standard bred, Arabian's etc) as being high strung.


HYPP is a genetic disorder that follows the Impressive lines in Quarter horses so if you want to avoid that problem avoid that line. As far as standardbreds being high strung they were bred to race, Arabians were bred for long distance travelling in the desert. They need to be hotter in order to fullfil the reason for breeding. Horses are like dogs they are bred for a purpose and I have the same feelings towards them as dogs. No mutts, shoudl be purebred only and should be bred with a purpose not just to have a baby.
 

Zoom

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#87
Yeah, I was thinking of Thoroughbreds when I was writing that. Race owners are some of the pickiest people when it comes to their barns. There, the breeding is focused on either speed or stamina, or jumping ability; no thought towards temperment. Most people aren't as uptight about a horse's pedigree though, a horse is a horse mostly. Arabians have always been high-strung though, they're a hot-blooded desert breed. It's a different temperment from warmbloods like Quarterhorses or cold-blooded draft horses like Clydsdales.

I know of the lethal white syndrome in Overo paints...if two frame overos are bred together then the resulting foal will most likely be a lethal white and have to be put down. It's not like with white GSD's; here the foal most likely has an intestinal blockage and weakened immune system and most foals die within a few hours anyway.
 
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yuckaduck

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#88
HYPP information for those who are interested.

What is HYPP?

Hyperkalemic Periodic Paralysis Disease (HYPP) is a muscular disease that affects both horses and humans. It is caused by a hereditary genetic defect that disrupts a protein called a sodium ion channel, a tiny gateway in the membrane of muscle cells. The genetic defect disrupts the channel's normal opening and closing, such that uncontrolled sodium influxes occur. These influxes in turn change the voltage current of muscle cells, causing uncontrolled muscle twitching or profound muscle weakness. High levels of potassium in the blood usually are present when the disruptions in the ion channel occur.

What Are Effects of HYPP?

Horses with HYPP can experience unpredictable attacks of paralysis which, in severe cases, can lead to collapse and sudden death. The cause of death usually is cardiac arrest and /or respiratory failure. The disease is characterized by intermittent episodes of muscle tremors manifested by generalized or localized shaking, trembling and weakness. Occasionally, episodes are accompanied by respiratory noises resulting from paralysis of the muscles of the upper airway (larynx and pharynx). In cases of mild attacks, muscle tremors may be so subtle as to be detectable only by an experienced clinician performing EMG testing.

Can Symptoms of HYPP Vary in Severity?

Clinical signs of HYPP do vary widely among different horses. Homozygous horses are affected more severely than heterozygous horses. Under ideal management practices, the defective gene does not appear to have adverse effects, but stress and/or increased potassium in the serum can trigger clinical signs of muscle dysfunction. Why some horses manifest severe signs of the disease and other exhibit little or no signs is unknown but currently under investigation. Unfortunately, a horse carrying the defective gene but showing minimal signs has the same chance of passing the gene to future generations as does the affected horse with severe signs.

What is the Origin of the Genetic Defect Causing HYPP?

The original genetic defect causing HYPP was a natural mutation that occurred as part of the evolutionary process. The majority of such mutations, which are constantly occurring, are not compatible with survival. However, the genetic mutation causing HYPP produced a functional, yet altered, sodium ion channel. This gene mutation is not a product of inbreeding. The gene mutation causing HYPP inadvertently became widespread when breeders sought to produce horses with heavy musculature.

Is HYPP Limited To A Particular Bloodline of Horses?

HYPP is associated with horses of heavy musculature, but this does not mean that all horses with well developed musculature are afflicted with the disease. The mutant gene causing HYPP presently has been identified in the descendents of the horse "Impressive." Research has not yet been performed on other bloodlines to ascertain whether the same or similar genetic mutation existing in other bloodlines also may cause HYPP. Since "Impressive" descendants are so numerous, the genetic mutation in the bloodline is widespread. Theoretically, it is possible that other mutations causing HYPP in different bloodlines may be more difficult to identify because they are not so widespread.

HYPP is unique in that it is the first equine disease in which breeding and molecular genetics have yielded a specific genetic mutation identifiable with a named bloodline. It only is a matter of time before other heritable conditions in various bloodlines likewise can be identified.

How is HYPP Inherited In Horses?

Based upon breeding trials conducted at the Equine Research Laboratory at the University of California at Davis, it was determined that HYPP is inherited as an autosomal dominant trait, which means it can occur in both males and females. The trait is inherited from generation to generation with equal frequency; it does not get "diluted" out. Breeding an affected heterozygous horse (N/H) to a normal horse (N/N) will result in approximately 50% normal offspring, while 50% will carry the defective gene (N/H). Breeding an affected homozygote (H/H) will result in all offspring carrying the gene mutation, regardless of the status of the other parent.

Normal (N/N) offspring safely can be bred, without fear of HYPP being inherited. Selective breeding to normal (N/N) horses could entirely eliminate HYPP disease. As HYPP is inherited as a dominant condition, it can and is being spread to other breeds. It is to everyone's benefit to take the necessary steps to selectively breed HYPP out of existence before it becomes so widespread that this is impossible.

Can Horses be Tested for HYPP?

A DNA test now has been developed and presently is available at UC Davis to identify horses carrying the defective gene causing HYPP. This blood test detects the presence or absence of the specific genetic mutation which has been found in the extended pedigree of "Impressive" descendants. From a whole blood sample a part of the gene coding for the horse muscle sodium channel is amplified, cut (using enzymes which cut specific DNA sequences), separated by electrophoresis, stained and read. Based on the number of DNA fragments observed, it can be determined whether the horse does not carry this specific mutation (a normal horse), or whether it carries one or two copies of this abnormal gene mutation (heterozygous or homozygous for HYPP, respectively).
 

yentna

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#89
Yuck, I know I'm a newcomer, but I don't get your dog / husband relationship either. Every decision about our dog is done together, not autonomously. I guess it works/is working for you, but just seems so foreign to me. Good luck with your husband and his dog decisions.
 

Zoom

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#90
I still say it's more Yucka's dog than her husbands, seeing as how she's the one caring for it and training it and all. His money may have bought it, but it sounds like when a child begs and begs for a puppy and then the parents are the ones who care for it, but it's still "the child's" dog.
 
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yuckaduck

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#91
Zoom said:
I still say it's more Yucka's dog than her husbands, seeing as how she's the one caring for it and training it and all. His money may have bought it, but it sounds like when a child begs and begs for a puppy and then the parents are the ones who care for it, but it's still "the child's" dog.

Pretty much but when it comes time to decide on what to do with the dog it is purely Marc. He has made that abundantly clear to me and I have stopped training the dog effective today. Marc walked him twice so far and if he does not pick up on the training then I am going to cancel the trainer and the behaviouralist. No point in me paying for something if he is not going to carry it through. Since it is his dog and he makes all the decisions on the dog he can care for the dog too. I fed him but that was it, everything is up to Marc.
I mean it is not my dog right? It is his, seems only fair to me he looks after him then. Bet the dog becomes mine before the end of the weekend!!!
 

Zoom

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#92
I hope so, because he's made so much progress and I fear that a change in routine or what's expected of him could cause a behavioral backslide and with his prior behavior, that's a dangerous thing.
 
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yuckaduck

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#93
Zoom said:
I hope so, because he's made so much progress and I fear that a change in routine or what's expected of him could cause a behavioral backslide and with his prior behavior, that's a dangerous thing.

Yes I agree but if he is making all the decisions and he is making all the choices and I have no say then I do not see why I should bust myself when he may just up and decide to get rid of him tomorrow or the next day. He has made the decision that it is his dog so he best care for his dog or his dog will either become my dog or he will be leaving. I am not having a dog here that is neglected in anyway whether it be for attention or for exercise. So he can either step up and take over or he can hand the dog to me. Or even better we can be a family and decide these things together. Big family talk planned for Sat after he is done his work week concerning Yukon, Dallas?? and the kids and me. What is the point in being married and living together if you could take or leave it. He needs to decide he loves me and this family and he wants it to function as a family or I am out of here with the kids and Yukon and him can have the place.
 

yentna

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#94
Bold move on your part Yuck! He'll probably back down pretty quickly once he sees that you are the one with the dog ability. Positive vibes sent your way, hope it has the effect you desire with as minimal impact on the dog as possible...

Edit - you posted the same time I did. Still, good luck with the family talk, you sound tough enough to stand up for yourself at least!
 
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yuckaduck

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#95
yentna said:
Bold move on your part Yuck! He'll probably back down pretty quickly once he sees that you are the one with the dog ability. Positive vibes sent your way, hope it has the effect you desire with as minimal impact on the dog as possible...

Honestly I suspect the kids and I will be moving out as painful as it will be but that is what I suspect! Will let you know when the talk is over with but I bet ya that is it. He just does not seem to know what a family is like. His parents are like that. What is his mom's is his mom's and she makes all decisions concerning it. What is his dad's is his dad's and he makes all decisions on it. Not for me, I grew up thinking family's talked things over and decided what was best for the family. Of course my parents had no love for me so I guess I smother my kids with love as a result. We all choose our path and if Marc chooses to follow his parents then he will have a very lonely life.
 

yentna

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#96
That is so tragic, I can't imagine living like that. If his parents are like that though, while sad it's not too surprising. He's missing out on the best parts of having a family! I hope you are as strong as you sound, but talk to friends and family and consider counseling. Maybe it's better to get out now, good luck to you. Sending positive thoughts your way.
 

juliefurry

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#97
I used to feel guilty spending money when I was a stay at home mom, I always had the what's mine is mine and what's yours is yours theory stuck in my head. I think if Marc sees that you really need a change he will change.
 
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yuckaduck

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#98
juliefurry said:
I used to feel guilty spending money when I was a stay at home mom, I always had the what's mine is mine and what's yours is yours theory stuck in my head. I think if Marc sees that you really need a change he will change.

Hoping julie, because to leave will break my heart; but I have to do what is best for my children and for me. Time will tell, but it will break Lily and Megan's hearts as well they really love him very much.
 

juliefurry

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#99
yuckaduck said:
Hoping julie, because to leave will break my heart; but I have to do what is best for my children and for me. Time will tell, but it will break Lily and Megan's hearts as well they really love him very much.
I know it breaks both Mark's heart and his biological son Cody's heart when there weekends are over together. Cody will go into tears and won't let go of Mark and Mark doesn't cry anymore but lots of times the whole two hour trip home is very quiet. Maybe the thought of losing the kids would be enough to get him to listen.
 
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BlackDog

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Everything poo!~

I sadly use to work at a small, tiny actually, family owned pet store. Most of their dogs were mixes. The ones that purebred were not AKC. They were APR (America's Pet Registery). I found is hard to sell people dogs from there. Especially, the mixes. The store would tell us to tell the costumers that anything mixed with a poodle or terrier would be non-sheding. Any dog that one breed in it that was good with kids that the mix would be good with kids, and so on. The worst part was that they really believed that. The owners daughter really believed it. I had to just keep my mouth shut. Costumers would tell me their thoughts on mixed breeds. Almost all of them thought mixed breeds have better temperaments, are healthier, and live longer than purebred dogs. They were willing to pay $2,100 for a goldendoodle.
You could tell a comstomer pretty much anything and they would believe it. Not that I did. It was out of control.
 

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