Kibble Feedback Please

[BerryBye]

I got my dog at 6 months in May of ’09 and I quickly moved to shift him from an extremely poor quality food, to something much better (and of course, grain free).

I did my research and started him on Acana “Wild Prairie†, then after a few months I switched to a different protein source, Acana “Pacifica†and then when that store stopped stocking Acana I switched to Taste of the Wild “Pacific Stream†and he is now on Taste of the Wild “Wetlandsâ€.

So long story short, I want to stop jumping around so much with his feed, but I haven’t been satisfied that any of the above provided a balanced enough diet so I kept looking, and recently found Orijen “Regional Redâ€.

I am leery of high protein (IMO) which is why I have stayed in the 30-35 percentile range with regards to protein but this “Regional Red†feed sounds really balanced (so I can hopefully just stay with it indefinitely), and it’s only 38% protein which makes me want to give it a try. So I have a few questions…

Has anyone here tried it? What were your experiences with it? What did you feed before starting them on it? Who here feeds a high protein kibble (no raw comparisons please )? Should I expect any changes in his energy levels or anything else?

Thank you so much!!
BB

 

[vanillasugar]

RR Orijen is still relatively new, so you might have a hard time finding people with experience feeding it.

I've had several customers buy it, (most are using it in rotation with regular Orijen) and so far have been very happy with it. It's quite palatable, but I haven't heard much feedback other than that at this point.

 

[BerryBye]

Thanks Nilly!
Can you explain how that rotation works?
Thank you!

 

[iibao]

I have feed Orijen 6 Fish one. I didn't notice any energy change in mine, they are never tired.


Rotation is basically switching food after you finish whatever bag you have.
Make sure you leave a little to mix with the next food so they don't get and upset stomach.
Here an example:
Wellness Core, Blue Wilderness, Innova EVO Red Meat & Instinct Chicken Meal Formula. And back the Wellness Core.

 

[Zoom]

Orijen is a good food and I've heard a lot of people just loving what it does for their dogs. I'm sure the RR will have much the same effect.

Some people like to find a food and stick with it, some people like to rotate through a variety of brands/formulas. I had Sawyer on EVO for a while, then switched to NV Prairie by accident (was in a hurry, thought I was grabbing a bag of Instinct...never again will I feed a non-grain-free food! oh the poop!) then went to INSTINCT Rabbit, then to TOTW Bision whatever it's called. Thanks to my car deciding to break last week, I'm running through a rotation of chicken quarters and freezer-burned elk meat/chuck steak until I can afford to get another bag. If I had the space, I'd just go full-raw right now, but I don't, so it's back to kibble for a while yet as soon as I have the monies.

 

[Renee750il]

I rarely stray away from the EVO RM, since all three of mine love it and thrive on it. Bimmer's always been reluctant as far as food goes, but he dances around and goes nuts over his RM without fail, and will look at raw poultry in his dish and back at me, then at the door to the room where I keep the dog food. You can see the hope in his eyes, lol.

I tried them on grain free Merrick and TOTW in an emergency once. Never again. He wouldn't eat it, Kharma turned her dish over, and even Tallulah would pick up a mouthful and let it dribble back out Oh, the DRAMA!

And then the poop. Even Kharma, who can devour Mexican, Chinese and Italian leftovers all in one sitting, complete with habanero sauce, without so much as a delicate little poot to betray her gastronimic follies.

They all do beautifully on it. The protein is just over 43%, fat just over 23%. I did see where there is a new fish formula EVO with comparable protein but about 18% fat. You might check their site: The Healthiest Pet Foods in the World – Natural & Organic Pet Food – Natura Pet Products

There's no one right food for every dog, you have to do what you're doing, learn as much as you can, know your dog, and try and see how it goes

 

[jess2416]

I try to stay with the EVO regular formula since Chloe does so great on it... I thought about doing the rotate food thing awhile back.. but decided against it...

 

[Zoom]

I'd like to try the EVO RM sometime...Sawyer didn't do too well on the regular EVO and I've not been pleased with the TOTW. He's had multiple poop accidents, which is unheard of for him, his coat isn't looking as good and I'm just not thrilled with it in general.

 

[BerryBye]

Thanks guys!! I really enjoy bouncing ideas around on here!

Agreed about TOTW, not crazy about it. I liked the Acana way better (especially the fish - his coat gleamed) so I have confidence in the Champion Pet Foods company.
I looked up the EVO RM and I'm too nervous to feed over 40% protein, although it does sound excellent.

I think I am going to give the Orijen a try. It's really high quality, made in Canada and it provides a good variety of protein sources.
Wish me luck!
Thanks again everyone!

 

[Laurelin]

I'm trying Orijen right now too. I've fed TOTW with good results but I've not had good results with EVO RM, the poops are terrible for my dogs.

 

[JustaLilBitaLuck]

BerryBye, what makes you nervous about a high protein content?

 

[BostonBanker]

I've had Meg on a variety of the grain-free foods over the years, and we have now settled happily into a rotation between the three types of Orijen (red meat, fish, and poultry) with some raw mixed in when I can. Her coat and eyes look great - usually the first sign that she isn't going to thrive on a food is little eye goobers, which I've never seen her get on the Orijen. Taste of the Wild was probably the worst for her - I special ordered two good sized bags because none of the local stores were carrying it at the time, and wound up giving almost 1.5 of the bags to the rescue because I didn't even want to keep her on it that long.

 

[Zoom]

We had some eye goober issues with TOTW and since he's finished that bag and been eating chicken quarters, I haven't seen a single one.

 

[SuZQuzie]

Our last Boxer was eating TotW and doing really well on it, as was my boyfriend's mom's dog. Both had great shiny, soft coats and plenty of energy, but not "stupid energy," as can happen with Boxers.

With my Boxer puppy, I wanted to start him on a grain-free large breed puppy kibble and the only one available has been Orijen. So far he has been great on it and he loves the taste.

When he is older, I may be switching him to the Orijen adult or just TotW. I'm not sure which yet, though. I have a while to think about it though.

It regards to high protein levels, there is essentially no protein limit for a dog. White humans will run into kidney problems with high protein, that is not the case with dogs since they are designed to eat lots of protein and, simply put, their bodies utilize protein as energy just as a human body utilizes carbohydrates.

While there has been research suggesting that high protein can make a dog more aggressive, that seems to only be the case if the dog was aggressive to begin with. My theory on this is that, since the protein is the most steadily available energy source for dogs, it will allow the dog to have more sustained energy to engage in whatever behavior profile is the most "natural" for them. For an aggressive dog, that would lead to more aggression but, for a work-a-holic dog, that means more drive to work.

 

[BerryBye]

Hi!
Thanks again for all of the feedback, it’s really appreciated!

I am concerned about high protein because it is harder on their bodies to process and it can seriously spike their energy levels.

Even though my dog gets a good game of fetch or a 5km jog (depending on my mood) each evening, is in agility/obedience training and runs around the yard with me all evening – he is already bursting with energy on a 35% protein feed. I feel that pumping my dog full of protein and then having him sit in his crate all day would be a bad combination.

I am really intrigued by the comments about the goopy eyes. He has had slightly runny eyes since I brought him home 8 months ago. I wonder if I should keep trying new foods until the eye problem clears up? He is currently on TOTW.

 

[Dekka]

Hi!
Thanks again for all of the feedback, it’s really appreciated!

I am concerned about high protein because it is harder on their bodies to process and it can seriously spike their energy levels.

Even though my dog gets a good game of fetch or a 5km jog (depending on my mood) each evening, is in agility/obedience training and runs around the yard with me all evening – he is already bursting with energy on a 35% protein feed. I feel that pumping my dog full of protein and then having him sit in his crate all day would be a bad combination.

I am really intrigued by the comments about the goopy eyes. He has had slightly runny eyes since I brought him home 8 months ago. I wonder if I should keep trying new foods until the eye problem clears up? He is currently on TOTW.

I have to say owning JRTs, whippets, and a border collie I have never found the bolded parts to be true. I actually found my dogs more focused and 'calmer' once off the grains.

The thing is protien isn't any more energy producing than carbs are. A gram of protien and a gram of carbs produce about the same amount of energy. Carb disgestion though leads to a spike, where as protien is broken down more slowly creating a slower release of the energy.

I suggest you do some research into how protien is utilized by dogs (and even humans). My dog sit in crates all day whilst I am at school (well 8 out of the 9 of them) every foster I have ever had has gotten switched over to grain free kibble or raw.. and every dog has settled in nicely. If high protien caused issues, then stressed out dogs with behaviour issues would likey get WORSE not better.

The other thing to notice when reseaching is to pay attention to protien quality. The studies that mention stress on kidneys use high high high (much higher than any kibble) and poor quality protien, or conversly they are protien loading a non carnivore-which also would skew the results.

Sorry this is one thing that really irks me . I have no probs if people want to feed a good quality kibble with grains.. but to perpetuate the myth that high protien leads to hyper dogs etc annoys me (cause so many people do it because they have been told this)

 

[BerryBye]

Thank you Dekka.

I am just repeating what I was told by my veterinarian and my nutritionist - who I have been including in my feed research.

What kibble do you feed? I am happy to hear that your dogs have done well on high protein (what %) and I am really open minded about this whole topic. I am just starting to get jaded by the information overload and constant conflicting information there seems to be out there.

I mean – obviously what works for one dog doesn’t necessarily work for another, but there has got to be some more obvious answers out there. I feel like I just keep reading and reading and then I talk to some professionals and other dog owners and I’m back at square one again. Like this high protein issue for example. My vet and nutritionist recommend that I stay in the mid thirty percentile range for protein. Why would they say this if it wasn’t correct? The nutritionist also owns the feed store so if he wanted to make money he would have recommended the Orijen that he sells instead of staying “For that breed of dog, stick with TOTW or you’re going to see a huge energy increaseâ€.

I am new to dogs, but not horses and I’m familiar with the practice of adjusting each horse’s type of feed based on their baseline energy level. So his reasoning made sense to me.

Also, I just finished reading about the class action law suit against Diamond Naturals…right after I bought a brand new bag of TOTW – so again I’m feeling overwhelmed.

I just want to do right by my dog and give him the best food available (without going raw) so please continue to share your knowledge with me. I really appreciate it.

Thank you!!

 

[iibao]

A lot of veterinarian don't give right information on food; I been told that Pedigree would be better for me dog than raw.

 

[Dekka]

If you are used to horses.. how would you feel if a vet said your horse shouldn't get grass or hay.. only pre processed pellets made from mostly non plant material? Yes to work load.. but even in horses its not protein (if you read the literature) its calories that count, and carb loading that counts. Protein doesn't make horses hot.. ecess calories and carbs do. People are the same as are dogs (barring metabolic issues)

Many kibbles that dog vets recommend are pretty close to the % protein performance horses get. And horses are herbivores!!

iibao is right, most dog vets don't get any actual nutritional training from non biased sources. Just check out the course requirements for a veterinary degree sometime.. its most illuminating.


My dogs all eat raw. They have been fed evo and orijen in the past with the most sucess being with orijen. I have fed MANY dogs (9 of my own and at least one foster at any given time) and never noticed a behaviour issue get worse with more protein.

To me feeding less than 40% protein is silly. A raw diet is going to be at least that, even if you include some veggie matter. I did a post a while back about how you have to remember that kibble is DRY weight. Second cut hay can be in excess of 18% protein which is much higher than it would be before it was cut. Kibble is the same. If you feed a typical non grain free kibble which is ~24% you need to remember thats dry weight.. And what carnivore would need such a low %?

I do agree different dogs will do better on different foods, some dogs do better on certain protein sources etc. But when someone tells me their dog only does well on crap food... well if it was my dog it would be going to the vet. Its the same as saying my child only does well on saltines and hot dogs, and gets sick if they eat any fruits and vegtables. Not saying its not possible, just that it likely links to an underlying metabolic/health problem. (but then the problem would be finding a vet who would take it seriously.. if you took your kid to a doctor they would see it as a problem.. but as many vets recommend kibble high in peanut hulls and 4D meat they are not likely to see the issue)

 

[BerryBye]

I do feel that I should clarify that I’m not trying to justify feeding a crap food to my dog (or one recommended by my veterinarian). Since I have heard many times that vets don’t receive sufficient nutrition training, I have a separate nutritionist to bounce my ideas off of. He has been trained professionally and has owned a feed store for over 25 years. I talk about food choices with him and then take the nutritional breakdown of the foods he suggests to my vet and discuss with her the impacts that these ingredients will have on my dog from a medical perspective.

Both of them said I should stay with the Acana/TOTW type feed and he sells Orijen - that’s why I’m confused. It isn’t as if he doesn't sell both (Orijen and Acana), so I feel like he would have encouraged me to "upgrade" to Orijen if he felt that it was the right choice.

This has resulted in my dog being fed TOTW and before that I was feeding Acana (and we are going back to Acana) – both grain free. I absolutely don’t feel that those are poor quality feeds. I am just considering moving “up a level†in terms of protein content, such as Orijen RR but I wanted to get some feedback from other dog owners who have their dogs on this type of feed and what their experiences have been so far.

I am familiar that in horses it’s not mainly about protein. I wasn’t addressing protein levels – just that I’m familiar with the practice of adjusting the different feed types based on a animals baseline energy level. For example, my Thoroughbred cannot eat the same as my Quarter Horse in the grain department. Why couldn’t that apply to various dog breeds? Or am I comparing apples and oranges?

Thanks again for taking the time to help me see things from a different perspective.