Kelpie vs Koolie vs BC vs English Shepherd??
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Bolded is what I really meant. I don't want another MUST.GO.LOVE.EVERYONE. dog. Other than that, don't so much care. It is nice having a dog like Mia whose world totally revolves around you though. She is a true one man dog that will very rarely work for anyone other than me or the other few people she likes.
That's pretty much exactly what happened to me with Kelpies. I was so certain they were The One, was on lists, talked to owners/breeders, did all the research, drove 3 hours to meet a few and went...No. Just not right. I'd be hard pressed to ever get a breed I haven't met numerous adults of now.
With all my time flipping through the various herding breeds, I spent time on Kelpies, Border Collies, and Koolies. I've met several Kelpies, one Koolie, and more BC than I can count, and Border Collies are definitely it, for most of the same reasons Laurelin listed. I like that my mix gives me all that I love about Border Collies, with a touch less of the soft temperament that I so wanted to avoid after Meg. Oh, and I can't say I've seen any more noise sensitivity in border collies than I have in any other breed I've known. I would never have put it on a list of concerns about the breed.
Speaking of whom, apparently she is a smooth coated brindle docked tail miniature English Shepherd. She sounds just like Quinn! The softness, the dignity, the adoration of children, the general "This is just such a GOOD dog", the dog preferences. Maybe the one breed I've ignored in the group is what I need to look at in the future!
With all my time flipping through the various herding breeds, I spent time on Kelpies, Border Collies, and Koolies. I've met several Kelpies, one Koolie, and more BC than I can count, and Border Collies are definitely it, for most of the same reasons Laurelin listed. I like that my mix gives me all that I love about Border Collies, with a touch less of the soft temperament that I so wanted to avoid after Meg. Oh, and I can't say I've seen any more noise sensitivity in border collies than I have in any other breed I've known. I would never have put it on a list of concerns about the breed.
Speaking of whom, apparently she is a smooth coated brindle docked tail miniature English Shepherd. She sounds just like Quinn! The softness, the dignity, the adoration of children, the general "This is just such a GOOD dog", the dog preferences. Maybe the one breed I've ignored in the group is what I need to look at in the future!
Okay just wasn't sure how to read that lol. When I think one-person dogs I tend to think of the Miras of the world who very distinctly pick The One and will choose to be with that person just for the sake of being with that person every moment of every day because, apparently, the world is brighter and shinier whenever their One Person is in it lol. You meant something rather different though so it was just a misalignment of definitions 
Most of what I wrote is also paraphrased from/verified by a friend of mine who has had herding + agility BCs since the 80s as well as personal observation, fwiw.
Most of what I wrote is also paraphrased from/verified by a friend of mine who has had herding + agility BCs since the 80s as well as personal observation, fwiw.
Quinn is incredibly noise sensitive. She's improved a lot with maturity and work but she's still wayy more noise sensitive than any other dog I know. She doesn't get scared - she reacts.
She was probably 16 months old when we could lift the ban on high 5ing in the house because until then, every high 5 would end with a furry, screaming BC landing somwhere between your knee and your face. She would come running from the other side of the house if she heard you.
She still doesn't like slapping sounds and she has a bunch of noises we can't really use around her. "ch ch ch" sends her wild and anything high pitched or stressed sounding and she's moving faster than she's thinking.
All her fears are sight related though. Frogs, snakes, harnesses - that sort of thing.
I just adore her though. I love her seriosness and how she will throw herself headfirst into anything she's going to do.
And I love.this.look.
3 by Buster-Quinn, on Flickr
She was probably 16 months old when we could lift the ban on high 5ing in the house because until then, every high 5 would end with a furry, screaming BC landing somwhere between your knee and your face. She would come running from the other side of the house if she heard you.
She still doesn't like slapping sounds and she has a bunch of noises we can't really use around her. "ch ch ch" sends her wild and anything high pitched or stressed sounding and she's moving faster than she's thinking.
All her fears are sight related though. Frogs, snakes, harnesses - that sort of thing.
I just adore her though. I love her seriosness and how she will throw herself headfirst into anything she's going to do.
And I love.this.look.
3 by Buster-Quinn, on Flickr
That's something nobody can help you with.. You have to figure out where you stand on that issue, how much are you willing to compromise for a certain breed, what aspects of a reputable breeder are important for you and what aspects are you willing to let slide. For everyone this is different, which is why we have so many discussions on what makes a reputable breeder.
Laur, you do realize your BC might be a spazzy, excessively friendly MONSTER for a while before it settles down? Even Eve used to think greeting other people was just the BEST THING EVER and tried constantly to go say hello to every freaking stranger that spoke to her while making eye contact.
I love the straight up balls and athleticism of the Koolies and Malinois and a lot of sporter collies, but for me personally I prefer a dog that moves deliberately and carefully and has more self-preservation instinct. What Charlotte said about Quinn is exactly how Eve is, and oh my god I love it so much. If I throw a ball down a cliff, she'll actually STOP and THINK about the most efficient, safest way to get down. Dakota would've just launched himself off the cliff with no thought process beyond BALLBALLBALLBALLBALL. GOTTAGETBALL.
I do have a question for the Koolie people though! Are Koolies generally kind of sharp, snarky dogs? It's the one thing about Eve that I'm not super wild about - as she's getting older, she's definitely shown a really sharp side to her temperament that I don't hate enough to complain about, but definitely would not seek out in my next dog.
(What I mean by sharp side is that when she decides she needs to be defensive, whether it's of me, of something she "owns", or of herself and her own personal space, she means BUSINESS and puts herself in full on kill-a-bitch mode right out of the gate.)
Also putting in my .02 on sound sensitivity for BCs. It's clear that a lot of border collies were originally bred to work based on SOUND - whistles and voice commands from a great distance, so sound sensitivity just makes sense. I do find that they are hyper-aware of the noises going on around them, so extra care needs to be taken to get them used to loud sounds. I didn't do this properly with my dog. I gave her about as much exposure to noise and abnormal sounds as I would have given any puppy, but it turns out that Eve needed a bit more. For anyone getting a border collie or similarly sound-sensitive breed, socialize the hell out of them and make their first couple years of life pretty noisy.
Also female BCs have words/actions/noises they just don't like. Eve hates it when I make a farting noise with my lips. She starts ear twitching and lip licking, and if I'm not asking her to do anything else, she likes to bark and grab a toy to relieve whatever stress that noise causes her. It's probably her one real quirk and the only time I've ever seen bizarre BC behavior out of this particular dog.
I love the straight up balls and athleticism of the Koolies and Malinois and a lot of sporter collies, but for me personally I prefer a dog that moves deliberately and carefully and has more self-preservation instinct. What Charlotte said about Quinn is exactly how Eve is, and oh my god I love it so much. If I throw a ball down a cliff, she'll actually STOP and THINK about the most efficient, safest way to get down. Dakota would've just launched himself off the cliff with no thought process beyond BALLBALLBALLBALLBALL. GOTTAGETBALL.
I do have a question for the Koolie people though! Are Koolies generally kind of sharp, snarky dogs? It's the one thing about Eve that I'm not super wild about - as she's getting older, she's definitely shown a really sharp side to her temperament that I don't hate enough to complain about, but definitely would not seek out in my next dog.
(What I mean by sharp side is that when she decides she needs to be defensive, whether it's of me, of something she "owns", or of herself and her own personal space, she means BUSINESS and puts herself in full on kill-a-bitch mode right out of the gate.)
Also putting in my .02 on sound sensitivity for BCs. It's clear that a lot of border collies were originally bred to work based on SOUND - whistles and voice commands from a great distance, so sound sensitivity just makes sense. I do find that they are hyper-aware of the noises going on around them, so extra care needs to be taken to get them used to loud sounds. I didn't do this properly with my dog. I gave her about as much exposure to noise and abnormal sounds as I would have given any puppy, but it turns out that Eve needed a bit more. For anyone getting a border collie or similarly sound-sensitive breed, socialize the hell out of them and make their first couple years of life pretty noisy.
Also female BCs have words/actions/noises they just don't like. Eve hates it when I make a farting noise with my lips. She starts ear twitching and lip licking, and if I'm not asking her to do anything else, she likes to bark and grab a toy to relieve whatever stress that noise causes her. It's probably her one real quirk and the only time I've ever seen bizarre BC behavior out of this particular dog.
Most of the BCs I've known are either shaking, trembling messes around weird or loud noises (or storms) or they react poorly to it. Even with extensive socialization and experiences. That's not to say they all are (and the chaz BCs are a good example of that), but it's definitely there. Maybe it's even just more common in my area? I don't know. The Koolie people I've talked to have so far not had any problems. I am sure Koolies can be too, as with any dog, but I've just seen it and heard of it a lot with BCs. But that isn't my sole reason for not getting a BC anyway. It's just one thing that I'd prefer to try my best not to get into. My biggest thing is that they just do not seem to like other dogs very much a lot of times. Especially females (which is what I want/need). Many seem either reactive, aggressive or overly snarky.
And to be superficial, I do prefer the look of (most) Koolies. I like that they more often come in smooth coats, I like their build, I like that they come in merle regularly, etc.
And to be superficial, I do prefer the look of (most) Koolies. I like that they more often come in smooth coats, I like their build, I like that they come in merle regularly, etc.
I'm surrounded by collies, living in a rural area, and honestly, I've never met a noise sensitive one. I hadn't actually heard that its common in the breed until coming on this forum.
Never met a Kelpie, Koolie or ES though, ES are a new breed to the UK, and I have no idea of the numbers of Kelpies and Koolies here, but I don't imagine there are many!
Never met a Kelpie, Koolie or ES though, ES are a new breed to the UK, and I have no idea of the numbers of Kelpies and Koolies here, but I don't imagine there are many!
Okay just wasn't sure how to read that lol. When I think one-person dogs I tend to think of the Miras of the world who very distinctly pick The One and will choose to be with that person just for the sake of being with that person every moment of every day because, apparently, the world is brighter and shinier whenever their One Person is in it lol. You meant something rather different though so it was just a misalignment of definitions
Most of what I wrote is also paraphrased from/verified by a friend of mine who has had herding + agility BCs since the 80s as well as personal observation, fwiw.
Most of what I wrote is also paraphrased from/verified by a friend of mine who has had herding + agility BCs since the 80s as well as personal observation, fwiw.
Oh I know. I've been around BCs of all sorts but it seems to me that most adult BCs aren't flailing over people like most labs do (or Summer). Most are friendly with people but also fine doing their own thing and not having to meet the other people.
If I end up with another Summer, I'll survive but I'd rather not. To give you an idea of what I mean, Summer has left me in the ring before to go jump in a random stranger's lap. Summer thinks I'm the greatest thing ever... until someone else shows up. Then that person is automatically more awesome than me or whatever Summer and I are doing.
Nikki (sheltie) was afraid of fart noises too. She would do the whole ears back thing and then run off grumbling.
And I actually like a touch of a sharp attitude in my dogs (if you can't tell lol). So that's another point I like about BCs versus koolies. Nikki was incredibly sharp, complaining, grumbly, and I think Mia is almost there sometimes. I don't know why I like that versus Summer who is always happy and innocent but I do like that bit of edge.
Ok everyone, just a little video of Traveler on when I come home. This isn't as over the top as he can get but it gives the idea. Also, house is gross. Sorry!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxdmjBhoraM
That was Traveler when he was young. Now that he's older will throw himself at people if they want to see him (and I ok it) or are talking about him (he knows if they are) but he still has his attention on me even when he's being a people slut and one move or thought of moving away he's right back with me. My perfect in-between. People loving, while focused on their person and won't pick anyone else of their person. But boy, does he love attention from anyone who will give it to him. *****.
Interested to see how my female differs.
Yeah, it can happen with any breed but it seems to me at leasat, to be to be pretty prevalent in Border Collies. I remember looking on a BC forum around 4th of July and the number of people who had dogs with issues were staggering, along with storm issues.
Koolies tend to not have that. I honestly dont' know if I've ever heard any mention of it by a koolie person. I know Traveler fell asleep outside during 4th of July and doesn't even notice storms except for the yucky wet part.
But more so it's just a general lack of spookiness, not just noise related. An over all more steadiness in their nerves than I seem to be able to find consistently in BC's. BC's seem to be a rather quirky breed. That's why I think they are more of an inbetween of BC's and Kelpies in a way. Not exactly, but a decent way to look at it.
When talking about the differences between Koolies and other breeds one of the first things mentioned by someone with BC's and Koolies was that they don't seem to have the bitchiness her BC's do, even the females. Not that some don't, I know a women with a female Koolie that wanted nothing more than for her male littermate she met about a year after they were born to go die. But she also lived with another female and two other males with no issue.
Traveler is as Emily said, SO not snarky. The only time he will snark is if he has dropped his tennis ball at my feet, is standing right there and another dog tries to take it.
Anything else is more insecurity issues like when he meets other intact males and feels the need to go "Mommy! They're mean, pick me up while I hackle" or with puppies because "TRAVELER IS THE CUTEST! TRAVELER IS THE BABY!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxdmjBhoraM
That was Traveler when he was young. Now that he's older will throw himself at people if they want to see him (and I ok it) or are talking about him (he knows if they are) but he still has his attention on me even when he's being a people slut and one move or thought of moving away he's right back with me. My perfect in-between. People loving, while focused on their person and won't pick anyone else of their person. But boy, does he love attention from anyone who will give it to him. *****.
Interested to see how my female differs.
I feel the same way. To me, noise phobia can happen with any dog of any breed.
I was just curious if others who have found it common in BCs, and therefore a reason to stay away from the breed, found it's not a very common thing in Koolies.
To me, noise phobia can happen with any dog of any breed. I was just curious if others who have found it common in BCs, and therefore a reason to stay away from the breed, found it's not a very common thing in Koolies.
Koolies tend to not have that. I honestly dont' know if I've ever heard any mention of it by a koolie person. I know Traveler fell asleep outside during 4th of July and doesn't even notice storms except for the yucky wet part.
But more so it's just a general lack of spookiness, not just noise related. An over all more steadiness in their nerves than I seem to be able to find consistently in BC's. BC's seem to be a rather quirky breed. That's why I think they are more of an inbetween of BC's and Kelpies in a way. Not exactly, but a decent way to look at it.
When talking about the differences between Koolies and other breeds one of the first things mentioned by someone with BC's and Koolies was that they don't seem to have the bitchiness her BC's do, even the females. Not that some don't, I know a women with a female Koolie that wanted nothing more than for her male littermate she met about a year after they were born to go die. But she also lived with another female and two other males with no issue.
Traveler is as Emily said, SO not snarky. The only time he will snark is if he has dropped his tennis ball at my feet, is standing right there and another dog tries to take it.
Anything else is more insecurity issues like when he meets other intact males and feels the need to go "Mommy! They're mean, pick me up while I hackle" or with puppies because "TRAVELER IS THE CUTEST! TRAVELER IS THE BABY!"
I don't really have anything to add to this conversation, just kind of watching with some interest (I love herding breeds on the whole so I like reading about them) - but I just had to say, I started watching this and was like "Haha he's just like Payton! Except with less barkin - OH there he goes. Okay yeah just like Payton." Hahahaha. except Trav has a more manly bark than Payton LMAO. I like Trav's whole butt wiggle even when he's sitting.
On the subject of noise sensitivity with BCs, I can't think of a single one I know who is noise sensitive, BUT by and large the ones I know are sports dogs, and people have probably gone to lengths to make sure they AREN'T noise sensitive. More than noise sensitivity I have seen DA in them. Lots of them that are really just... they would just as soon eat your dog's face off as look at them. But I have a feeling that is more about the kinds of dogs I know rather than a general statement on the breed...
On the subject of noise sensitivity with BCs, I can't think of a single one I know who is noise sensitive, BUT by and large the ones I know are sports dogs, and people have probably gone to lengths to make sure they AREN'T noise sensitive. More than noise sensitivity I have seen DA in them. Lots of them that are really just... they would just as soon eat your dog's face off as look at them. But I have a feeling that is more about the kinds of dogs I know rather than a general statement on the breed...
I agree with the sound sensitivity part. What I've seen with the DA is more or less serious BC's that are in working mode that are not wanting to socialize so they will just tell an obnoxious dog off. Zuma does the same thing... anytime she's on leash she's "working", she absolutely does not appreciate any dog getting in her space and interfering with that. Very rarely do I see a full out DA border collie.
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Hmm that's interesting. I've talked to many working breeders, more than 20 I would say and I've always asked about noise sensitivity. About 15 of them said some of their dogs are noise sensitive, especially in more crowded cities with lots of cars, people, noises but since they live on farms and away from huge metropolitan cities, they don't see it as a big problem. A lot mentioned some get spooked sometimes by loud banging sounds on TV but it's very minor and not a big problem. All these are definitely work or trial bred dogs.
I suppose it also depends on what you mean by noise sensitive. Gusto definitely reacts to noise more than Meg does. If you make funny noises with your mouth, Meg just puts her head down and ignores you. Gusto cocks his head, then usually tries to pounce into your mouth He's more alert to sounds for sure. But he also sleeps right through thunder storms and doesn't react to fireworks. So I suppose he's "sensitive" - it just doesn't bother him. If that makes sense.
He's more alert to sounds for sure. But he also sleeps right through thunder storms and doesn't react to fireworks. So I suppose he's "sensitive" - it just doesn't bother him. If that makes sense.
I would imagine it also depends on what drive the dog is in/environment as well. Backup has developed a fear of the loud crashing sound the ring gates at my work make if he's in a down stay, I think he's afraid that being in a down stay make him an easy target or he has too much time to think or something. If he's training or hanging out he doesn't seem to react.
The more I hear about Traveler, the more I think he sounds like my kind of dog.
That is all I have to add here.
That is all I have to add here.
But don't worry about the Koolie craze, folks, I still see Alaskans in my future.
I've known a couple full out DA border collies. My first trainer had one that was so bad he could not work around with other dogs around. She got him to be her big sports dog and he was good if no one else was around. The only way he'd work is if people took their dog well away from the fence. Obviously that's a problem if you're looking to take a dog to a trial.
I've known a lot that aren't really dog friendly but aren't at that level. Quite a few seem to redirect aggressively onto other dogs when they get overstimulated. But these dogs all come from the same kennel so it could be a kennel problem moreso than the breed.
As far as noise sensitivity, I see some but not any worse than Mia is. Mia as a pup could get pretty spooky. The worst was when this dog got loose while she was running a dog walk. A horse was coming down the road and the dog went charging under the dog walk barking at it and Mia flipped out and fell off. She was done for the day. But as she's gotten older, she's been fine.
Most the issues I see in BCs are reactivity that imo is being handled poorly.
I've known a lot that aren't really dog friendly but aren't at that level. Quite a few seem to redirect aggressively onto other dogs when they get overstimulated. But these dogs all come from the same kennel so it could be a kennel problem moreso than the breed.
As far as noise sensitivity, I see some but not any worse than Mia is. Mia as a pup could get pretty spooky. The worst was when this dog got loose while she was running a dog walk. A horse was coming down the road and the dog went charging under the dog walk barking at it and Mia flipped out and fell off. She was done for the day. But as she's gotten older, she's been fine.
Most the issues I see in BCs are reactivity that imo is being handled poorly.