Is This Wrong?

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by ihartgonzo, Jul 20, 2006.

  1. ihartgonzo

    ihartgonzo and Fozzie B!

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    Ok... so, there is a Border Collie female named Belle training with my Flyball team. Her owner brought her to classes while in heat last week -_-, and I got into a conversation with her about her decision to breed Belle. She is a very sweet dog, but I for real thought she must be mixed with a spaniel or a Golden, because the most BC thing about her is her markings, period. Belle has cleared health certs, and is AKC pointed. I think she only needs 1 major before she's a Champion (therefore, she forfeits an ABCA registration). The owner has bred Papillons and is involved in Papillon rescue, she got a BC because she wanted a bigger dog to show, because bending over so much to show her Paps was getting harder with age (LOL at that one). But, I'm positive the pups would be well raised and socialized. Belle has never seen livestock, but she does a bit of Agility & Flyball with her for fun.

    Other people on the team seem to support her, but me & the one other really enthusiastic BC lady are kind of sick over it. Belle is super mild-mannered and a dog that could be trusted with about anything, but I have never seen an ounce of intensity in her. She's stocky & tall (about 15 lbs larger than my male BC), fluffy, short-muzzled, & tires after a few runs. Besides that, she just does not care about working either way... and she's super slow! I mean, she's a wonderful family dog, but literally a black & white Golden Retriever! I have never seen her actually focus on the ball, her owner, other dogs, n o t h i n g. This dog basically bumbles around, like "Ohhh, a ball", and does not even pick it up or bring it back half the time. When I met her, I thought she may be a senior dog, but she isn't even 2 years old!

    Basically, what is everyone's view on this? She IS health tested, proven in conformation, very friendly & social, but basically dull as could be. I would guess that she *could* pass her CGC with a very easy trainer, but even if she did earn that, is it ethical for her owner to breed her? I kind of want to know partly, to see if I'm just snobby. But I would honestly prefer a sometimes overwhelmingly high-herding-drive BC to one that would be perfectly content to lay around indoors all day & that would just wag their tail at livestock.

    This is Belle: (note the intensity when retrieving the ball :p)
    [​IMG]

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    This is Bailey, the other BC-enthusiast's working-bred dog. She is beginning to trial on sheep already and she's only 1 year old. She's also nearly done with Flyball training, even though she has chasing habits:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Red_ACD_for_me

    Red_ACD_for_me Ruled by a RED boy!

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    First off, the lady is CRAZY to bring a female out in public that is in heat anywhere let alone a flyball meeting. Is there any intact males on the team :confused: Also, don't forget that they are breeding alot of the show dogs these days that can't work :rolleyes: but are beautiful specimens for show (very controversial) thus the non existing intensity you don't see. That being said, if she has had her health clearences then I guess it is okay to have her bred :( . Not to sure on that one because I believe you stated that she isn't even 2 years yet and she probably hasn't had her hips done, or has she?
     
  3. LizzieCollie

    LizzieCollie Collie Crazy

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    She looks like a beautiful girl and a typical example of the show bred BC. Its good to get a laid back BC once in a while because they are just getting to nutty and high drive. She can be bred to a higher energy dog to hopefully balance things out.

    Why do you say she doesnt look purebred? She certainly does look purebred, but she is a show dog. You are probably used to seeing those raggly looking working and pet BC's.

    Edited to add: Its the same thing with me and show Collies. I am so used to seeing the show bred Collies that when I look at my girl (working lines) I say 'Whats wrong with her, she has no coat!' Also I never did ear training with Lizzie so her ears prick but she is purebred
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2006
  4. My bitches go lots of places with me when in season, however, I would NOT take them to any working event without prior permission, and if I did, I would keep them well away from the working area.

    Bitches in season are routinely shown at Breed shows, but one should always be considerate of those with intact males if you have a girl who is in.
     
  5. tessa_s212

    tessa_s212 Guest

    LIzziCollie, she actually does look like many BC/Spaniel crosses I have seen. She doesn't even loook like the show bred BCs...
     
  6. tessa_s212

    tessa_s212 Guest

    Oh, as for your question, I think it is very young. *shakes head* ...how sad...how ignorant...
     
  7. ihartgonzo

    ihartgonzo and Fozzie B!

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    Hm... I can understand the opinions above. Still, it kills me as much as it would kill me to see her breeding Border-doodles or whatever. To me, this girl is miles from being a BC, no matter how she looks. It's not just the pictures, it's her presence that is nowhere near to being a good specimen on the breed.

    I kind of don't get the "raggly" comment xP. If by, having a lean, athletic, wash-n-wear build that Border Collies had 100+ years before BC's were introduced to the AKC, I guess that's raggly. I feel the opposite... I feel that Bailey is a gorgeous girl (despite NOT conforming to the AKC standard because of the percentage of white on her) and is waaaay superior in structure & ability to Belle. Gonzo is also quite "raggly", but I would honestly choose him as better breeding stock... of course with health clearances and such. To me, a stocky dog who is not built for speed/endurance/work & with a fluffy coat that is not practical for rough terrain, cannot be a superior example of the breed... much less a dog that has no instinct at all.

    I hate that BC's are being dumbed down, I guess, to fit a mold of society. If the average person cannot handle a BC as they are intended to be (and the average person definitely cannot), they should look into other, lower drive breeds. And the "nutty" Border Collies you meet... I'm guessing all of those dogs are under-worked completely. My BC is almost as drivey as they get, and he's totally sane and sweet because he gets plenty of mental/physical stimulation, which is not provided to way too many pet dogs of this breed. I have never met a BC that is regularly worked who is nutty, at all. There are higher-drive BC's out there that should be toned down, but then there are plenty of wonderful working dogs who are not as high-strung. To me, it makes no sense to continuously work towards a trend in this country to breed dogs that "look" like Border Collies (just "prettier") but aren't as "high-drive" (ie, actually having the ability & desire to go out and work all day, which is the breed's purpose) or as "nutty" (ie, wanting to be with their people not sitting around alone all day while their owners are out working - or craving mental stimulation when the most they get is re-arranging the yard/house)... why NOT just cross BC's with Saint Bernards until you get a dog that LOOKS like a pretty Border Collie and might want to fetch a ball for 15 minutes a day, but won't ask for a job as they were intended to have, is friendly with anyone & everyone, and is happy sleeping the day away? That is seriously how I feel sometimes. And, having a drivey BC that requires lots of time & work and is 1000x more than worth it all, it kills me to see the breed being used like it is. As important as conformation is for a toy Poodle, working drive is to a Border Collie... and IMO to any herding breed.
     
  8. ihartgonzo

    ihartgonzo and Fozzie B!

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    And let me clarify... this lady is responsible as far as health tests go. Belle's hips & elbows & eyes have been cleared. And she is not breeding her until her next heat, which is in the fall - to a Champion Conformation (not working) male.
     
  9. Gempress

    Gempress Walks into Mordor

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    I don't agree at all. Temperament is an integral part of a breed's identity; that's why it's described in the standard. BCs are suppossed to have a strong, high working drive. To me, breeding a Border Collie with no energy and low drive would be as bad as breeding a BC with a serious conformation fault.

    Would a mellow BC be a better pet? Yes, it would. But it would be a bad example of a border collie! They weren't meant to have the personality of a lap dog! So many breeds are becoming watered-down in temperament as breeders try to make their dogs more suitable for pet homes. I don't think they're doing the breed any favors by doing so.
     
  10. LizzieCollie

    LizzieCollie Collie Crazy

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    Well thats what the AKC has done to dogs. Many of them do look very pretty, it doesnt make them good working dogs but you cannot deny that a great deal are better looking than their working counterparts (Like Collies and BC's)

    There are some breeds that the AKC has really messed up conformation wise (i.e. FAT Labs and poorly bred GSD's) but hey the AKC is like that. They strive for good pedigrees and good looks not what the dog can actually do. I still think shes a beautiful looking BC. Not a worker, but still beautiful.

    Alot of people are only thinking about looks and pedigree. I know a lady who a few years back had the #1 GSD in Puerto Rico which was a huge achievment since that GSD was female.
    The owner doesnt show anymore and now she has a white GSD and a black and tan female who is agressive and death. She admitted to me that she actually thought of breeding the agressive girl simply because she 'had a nice pedigree' Go Figure
     
  11. whatszmatter

    whatszmatter Guest

    you could breed a medium drive to high and get good working dogs, but no drive to high drive and you're wasting your time. and BC's are working dogs, they aren't meant to be lap dogs, they aren't meant to be low in drive, if that's what you want, get a lap dog, if you want a BC be ready and be able to work it. It's freaking disgusting when people go and get a BC or GSD or Malor some terrier that have great working drives and temperment and they don't want that, so they find it fit to breed a shell of what a dog is supposed to be because that's what people want.

    So let me get this straight, people want BC's cause they're active fun, smart, loyal, but then they don't want any of the things that make them that???:confused: If you can't handle a porsche, don't drop a 1.9 4 cylinder from the local saturn dealership in one so you can look cool. Just get the saturn.

    If this BC doesn't show any intensity, any focus, any "eye" then make it a pet, its not to be bred.
     
  12. casablanca1

    casablanca1 Happy

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    Belle is super mild-mannered and a dog that could be trusted with about anything, but I have never seen an ounce of intensity in her. She's stocky & tall (about 15 lbs larger than my male BC), fluffy, short-muzzled, & tires after a few runs. Besides that, she just does not care about working either way... and she's super slow! I mean, she's a wonderful family dog, but literally a black & white Golden Retriever! I have never seen her actually focus on the ball, her owner, other dogs, n o t h i n g. This dog basically bumbles around, like "Ohhh, a ball", and does not even pick it up or bring it back half the time. When I met her, I thought she may be a senior dog, but she isn't even 2 years old!

    I can't help thinking that you might be overly critical of this dog. She clearly isn't a typical BC, but she's clearly a suitable family pet, so I don't think it's immoral to breed her. I save the morality clause for gross physical or temperament problems. Assuming her sedate manner is entirely temperament and has no physical cause (I'm a little suspicious of a 2-year-old of any breed being that tired), she shouldn't be bred to a similarly quiet dog, but to one with a little more spark.

    I'm growing slowly more critical of the idea that certain breeds must be kept pure working types. There's something a bit unpleasant about the attitude that there are a few breeds which are, it's implied, so far beyond their working origins that they're suitable as family pets - ie, they're sluggards without much drive. Maybe I've just met too many people who justify their handling or their dogs' behavior with the 'that's what they're meant to do.' Which is great if you live in Idaho, I suppose, but a lot of them are living in apartment buildings where their 'natural' breed is going bonkers trying to fulfill his/her destiny to herd, guard, etc. A lot of breeds have split into working/pet factions because of that, and this woman with Belle seems to be doing that. I don't really see the problem with it. There are a lot more potential homes for a quiet dog who 'can be trusted with about anything' than there are for high-drive working dogs who live to run.

    And yes, I know people usually shouldn't choose a BC if they live in a 1-bedroom, but considering how it's usually clear when you speak to dog people that they consider working and show dogs to be superior - more interesting, more successful, more fun - than 'pet quality dogs, it's not surprising that a lot of newcomers screw up their choice.
     
  13. sam

    sam New Member

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    With rescues and humane societies chalk full of border collies, bc pups and bc crosses I think potential breeders need to have a really great reason to breed and 'to make good family pets' that look like border collies doesn't do it for me. I think the last stat I heard about number of dogs being euthanised in shelters in the US was an average of 8-10 million per year. LOTS of those are border collies.
     
  14. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    Sounds like they do plan to breed . I sure never took my females in heat anywhere !
     
  15. lakotasong

    lakotasong Sled Dog Guardian

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    "Watering down" a breed gets a big thumbs down from me. Border Collies have that work/show split, as do Siberians. If someone wants a low-drive dog, they should choose a different breed instead of trying to breed a working dog with low drive or no drive.

    And no, this doesn't make me consider her a BYB. Her dog is proven in some respects and health tested. I just don't feel what she's doing is in the best interest of the breed.

    Why doesn't she wait and breed that working BC?
     
  16. tempura tantrum

    tempura tantrum Shiba Inu Slave

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    I'd like to point one thing out really quickly:

    It is NOT the AKC that waters down/ruins breeds. The AKC is a registry, period. It is BREEDERS who water down and ruin breeds. If AKC registered BCs are low-drive and resemble Australian Shepherds more than their own breed, it is only because BC breeders are breeding those dogs and winning with them.

    The stewardship of a breed falls to those who breed it. Each breed's national breed club is responsible for the standard. If the breed is going in the wrong direction, the only people who can be blamed are the people breeding them (and the judges who don't know enough about the standard to put them up).

    In Shibas we have been quite fortunate. I can honestly say that in the past 15 years, American bred animal have only improved. Japanese judges are far more impressed with what American breeders are turning out. Our dogs are definitely more typey. While there are few (okay NO) opportunities to hunt Japanese wild boar in the US, many of the imports we bring in have proven themselves quite capable. Sure, this is a non-sporting breed, but these dogs certainly don't think so! My Shibas are capable of doing long-distance runs with me, and both are good at agility.

    It is up to breeders and breeders alone to put the emphasis on what is important in their breed. It is a shame when winning in conformation becomes the ONLY concern, but once again, that is the fault of individual breeders, and NOT the registry they choose.
     
  17. lakotasong

    lakotasong Sled Dog Guardian

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  18. LizzieCollie

    LizzieCollie Collie Crazy

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    It is in a big part the AKC's fault. The judge should know enough about the standard to properly judge them, its their job! They should not let out of standard dogs win. If the standard calls for a dog of certain height or weight why are the judges choosing dogs that are 10-15 pounds overweight, 2-3 inches to tall?!?

    If the AKC did not applaud these type of faults the breeders would not be breeding dogs that are out of the standard (the original standard, not the modified 2006 standard)
     
  19. casablanca1

    casablanca1 Happy

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    Basically, the only way to keep any breed true to its origins is for the main authority over the purebred dog world (the AKC in the US) to make conformation titles unavailable to dogs who can't pass working tests. It's a simple solution that neither the working or the show people will embrace because it requires compromise. Because it's not just the show people being irresponsible and breeding monsters. Yes, the show people turned the Cocker into a grooming nightmare, but the working people are the ones who have created dogs so high on drive that they will work themselves to death if they're not physically stopped. Both are disturbing examples of humans heightening non-essential, frivolous traits and creating animals that suffer as a result.
     
  20. ihartgonzo

    ihartgonzo and Fozzie B!

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    Casablanca, just look at it this way... a Border Collie's signature for the many centuries it has been in existance was it's working style - it's eye. Not a black & white coat. Not anything to do with appearance, at all. It has existed all this time as a fairly well-known and well-preserved breed without conformation showing. BC's only became an accepted AKC breed in 1995; before that, the breed was preserved in skill & appearance through it's work. When you're out looking for a doctor, do you check their beauty pageant history as a priority? I am not completely against conformation... not at all. But if the dog cannot work like a BC, it might as well be a St. Bernard!

    I don't feel I am being critical of Belle & her owner. I am involved in BC rescue... and I've fostered a puppy that was "show" style, and I've helped with plenty of working BC's as well. Of course he was a sweet little boy, and I still miss him. He's a wonderful family dog now. However, there are countless breeds out there who are content as lazy, aloof family dogs, so why add more BC's to a country already over-flowing with unwanted dogs if their purpose is pet? It hurts me so much to see Border Collies being morphed into a "pet". Yes, they make wonderful pets for a special kind of person. Gonzo is the best pet dog we've ever had, way more sweet/agreeable/affectionate than our previous Cocker Spaniel & Bichon, and way more entertaining and fun than any dog I've met... but, not everyone has hours every day to dedicate to training & exercising their dogs. If some one "living in an apartment" does not put in the effort to properly exercise a Border Collie & prefers a lazy, easy, aloof dog, get an English Bulldog! I LIKE that this breed doesn't rub up against every stranger in sight, I LIKE that owning one requires you to get out and do things with it, I LIKE that they are a challenge & can be mentally exhausting but they pay you back with endless loyalty & love. If they were made into the perfect average family's "pet" - an aloof, everything-loving, low-activity, ho-hum breed, I and all of the other real BC lovers would have nothing to love about these dogs anymore.

    I definitely agree with the Porsche/Saturn analogy =P as well as Summit! I absolutely feel for Sibe people as well.

    Tempura, I do not blame the AKC completely - I am mostly refering to "AKC breeders" of the Border Collie. As far as the ABCA's opinion on showing, an ABCA registered Border Collie's papers are rejected if the dog earns an AKC CH... enough said. :) Other than that, the AKC *should* require a working title from working breeds before they can compete in conformation, most definitely. If not, I'd rather they went the way of the Canadian Kennel Club and did not ever accept the breed to begin with. The breed club is awesome and handles the breedings well. I have nothing against showing BC's to prove that the dog conforms to the standard, but if the dog is not working on a daily basis or trialing, it has no business being shown. IMO.
     

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