Is This Wrong?

[tempura tantrum]

I completely agree that judges should be faulted for putting up dogs that do not fit the standard- if you read my previous response, I said as much. We often have a problem in Shibas with people getting "grandfathered in" to judge our breed, meaning group judges often don't understand the finer points. They don't realize, for example, that a flashy, super-friendly animal may be a great show dog, but not exactly a fantastic representative of true Shiba temperament.

But this is the case in EVERY breed. It's unrealistic to expect a judge to know every breed as well as his/her own (although judges like Annie Clark and Pat Trotter are superlative examples). It's just another reminder that we must find creative ways of living in an imperfect world. When it comes down to it the onus will ALWAYS fall on the people breeding the dogs. Did they not choose, after all, to become *stewards* of the breed? These are the people who drew up the standards, the very same who are holding (hopefully!) breed-type workshops, and national specialties. They should know their own breed better than anyone else.

Stewardship implies protection- protection *especially* from fads. So what if you lose under a few all-breed judges here and there? If you are breeding TO THE STANDARD you SHOULD be winning under breeder-judges (the ones who REALLY matter). And if breeder judges are putting up the wrong dogs...well then, you REALLY have a problem.

But once again- AKC is a registry PERIOD. I'm not really sure how to explain this any better, but it's a little bit like blaming God for the ill effects of choices you make with your own free will. AKC is not here to hold our hands, or slap them when we go astray- it is up to US to realize this.

It is what breeders as a whole decide to do once their breed gets ACCEPTED by the AKC that choose the destiny of a breed. You cannot fault a registry for the mistakes that breeders whose love for winning outweighs a love for their own breed.

Casablanca makes a good point- requiring some sort of working title for a dog before it competes in conformation would be the most effective way to eliminate such a problem. (And I agree, the working breeders who ignore everything but drive are just as bad as the conformation breeders who ignore everything but looks).

Unfortunately, this will probably never happen. The logistics of it (what titles are acceptable? How do you decide what kind of a working-title is acceptable for a Pekingese? What do you do with breeds whose original function is so esoteric there isn't a way to test it anymore?), make it easier on a whole (and lets face it, more lucrative), to allow people to CHOOSE whether or not they put titles on both ends of a dog's name. It all comes down to the free will thing again. The ability to change your breed for the good or for the bad lies in your own hands. To lay the blame on AKC is a cop-out.

 

[tempura tantrum]

Ahhh Gonzo- just read your reply.

I do not blame the AKC completely - I am mostly refering to "AKC breeders" of the Border Collie.

This is EXACTLY what I have been trying to get at all along- it is not the AKC, but the breeders who produce incorrect dogs to register with it, that are to blame. These people got into this breed (presumably) because they liked it in its entirety, so it boggles my mind that a breed split should ever occur. I definitely feel for people in Sibes, BCs, Labs, Springers (the list goes on and on), in a perfect world, people would love a breed for more than just its looks.

However, I DO think it is silly that the ABCA rejects the papers of a BC that obtains an AKC championship. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater! So I am to believe then that it is quite possible that an animal with outstanding herding capability, perhaps even a dog that was winning ABCA herding trials and working on a farm, would then be rejected after becoming a champion? That seems so counterintuitive to their whole stance- if they are primarily concerned with working function, then why should they care that a dog becomes a champion if it has already proved itself a capable worker?

Things like that guarantee that a breed split will remain. How sad that two sides that *love* a breed so much cannot see beyond their own anger with one another to find a common solution.

 

[Renee750il]

It's called "ego," TT

 

[ihartgonzo]

"The ABCA is a working stockdog registry and believes that breeding for conformation standards rather than working ability is detrimental to the health and working ability of the Border Collie. Consequently dogs or bitches which have been named a "Conformation Champion" by a conformation registry are not eligible for ABCA registration, even if they otherwise meet the requirements of for registration. The ABCA will de-register any ABCA registered dog or bitch should it be named a "Conformation Champion" after January 1, 2004, and will not register the offspring of any dog or bitch named a "Conformation Champion" after that date."

Taking straight for the website... I feel I explained the reasoning in prior posts. Border Collies have been maintained based on working style & well-planned out breeding alone, many many years before the AKC accepted them in 1995. BC's are a breed distinguished based on working style, so why should conformation bea deciding factor in the breedability of these dogs? BC's are not even close to Shiba's, although I definitely understand your reasoning around Shiba Inu showing.

 

[RD]

A Border Collie is defined to me, first and foremost, by behavior. I have no problem accepting that a downright ugly dog (according to the show ring, at least) is a purebred Border Collie if it acts like one.

Someone stated that it was good to get a laid-back BC once in a while. No, it isn't. That's not what the breed is about. Borders are supposed to be hardworking and intense, not lazy and calm.

This basically boils down to a lady breeding a dog with an incorrect temperament. Yes, I feel that is wrong. Would this woman say it was okay if there was a person breeding a protection dog that hid from intruders?

As for breeding solely for working ability, I say ABSOLUTELY YES to this if every dog being bred is a working dog. Meaning, it goes out and works on a daily basis. Not just a dog from working lines that goes out and eyes stock on occasion. If a dog can work hard every day, pass its health tests, and not fall apart after running 50 miles in a day, this proves that the dog is structurally sound. As opposed to showing, where people can only say that the dog LOOKS structurally sound.

My problem here comes in when people breed dogs that are "working dogs" but only see a sheep once a week, or are simply pets or kennel dogs unproven working ability. Breeding unproven dogs is going to mess up the breed too.

 

[tempura tantrum]

First off, I ABSOLUTELY KNOW that BCs and Shibas are not even remotely similar. Shibas are bred to be incredibly independent hunters- they look for instructions from no one. To ask for instructions while you're tailing a bear or a wild boar is to simultaneously ask for a death sentence. Shibas that hunt boar in Japan are not "taught" how to hunt by people- they are simply let loose with the pack at an appropriate age, and learn from older dogs during the hunt. My dogs have proved their prowess as hunters time and time again. I've watched Kimi take birds out of the air, and deposit countless "presents" (AKA things she has killed) upon my doorstep. Both my dogs have successful boar hunters in their pedigrees just 2 generations back. Their breeder owns at least one boar hunter currently. Both of my dogs are accomplished in agility as well. Nevertheless- they are still show dogs. You don't have to exclude working ability to be a great showdog. It CAN be done. We in Shibas do not take the original purpose of our breed, or it's drive any less seriously than people in other breeds. While there aren't a whole lot of Japanese wild boar in the US (or any, as far as I know), I will nevertheless take the working ability of dogs in my future breeding program as seriously as I take the conformation aspect. (As I am in college, I have yet to start a breeding program in earnest). Tracking and agility will be the main focus- as I feel these would most closely test the working traits of a Shiba.

And I don't know, it may seem dense to some, but I still believe that it makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE to de-register a dog AFTER it has already proved it's ability as an effective working animal, and THEN goes and obtains a conformation championship. How does that devalue anything the dog has done previously? Does working ability magically evaporate after a dog trots around in a circle and gets handed a ribbon? I'm going to guess that it doesn't. I can understand them not allowing dogs that obtain a conformation title PRIOR to proving their ability as a stockdog...but the other way around seems just a bit loopy.

I've seen several breeders in Australian Cattledogs that have incredible working stockdogs (not just animals that compete, but those that are active components in running daily life on a ranch), and they are still great showdogs! How have these people done it? And why can't the BC people do it? I have a feeling that Renee is right...maybe it all really does come down to ego. (On *both* sides of the issue- I have no greater feelings for those that show than those that work. Mostly, I find breed splits in general sad and unecessary).

 

[RD]

I do definitely agree with Tempura that it is not the AKC or showing in conformation that has "ruined" the Border Collie. The registry, the standard and the act of showing have done nothing to hurt the breed. What hurts is people breeding just to win. People breeding for their own personal glory instead of the breed. It acts nothing like a Border Collie? Who cares? It'll win!

it does come down to ego, on both sides of the split.

 

[tempura tantrum]

Thank you RD!

What we have to remember with conformation is that the judge can only evaluate what you bring into the ring. If *everyone* started to breed BCs correctly...guess what would be winning? Sure, you can always make the argument that the judges could withhold ribbons if they didn't like what they saw...but lets face it, that doesn't happen often (and there isn't a judge on Earth who would do this with any sort of regularity- it's a great way to make sure you never get judging assignments again).

The changes must come from within the breed itself.

And I must point out that I too have NO problem with dogs that are "just" working dogs. My boyfriend's family has Kelpies to work the cattle that is their livelihood, and I'm pretty sure they would absolutely crack up at the idea of entering a dog show. These dogs work every day, and are essential to the smooth running of the station. I could care less whether or not their tail set is too high or too low, as long as they do their job correctly, and as RD pointed out, can do so hour after hour, day after day. But I too see a ton of people label their dogs as "working dogs," when they are just as RD said- dogs that see sheep every once in awhile. There are crappy breeders on both sides of the spectrum.

 

[~Tucker&Me~]

I agree, this dog does not have the proper temperment and therefore should not be bred.

~Tucker

 

[Wiggle Butt]

To me, health certs and a CH title are not enough for any breed except those that only exist as companions. Working dogs should work before being bred, and it should come naturally.

 

[stevinski]

shelties that are bred for the conformation ring, can still compete in herding, agility and obediance, while researching kennels, i've noticed alot of kennels have bred there show stock to some of the herding dogs further back in the lines to create more of a drive in their dogs.

 

[colliewog]

Well thats what the AKC has done to dogs. Many of them do look very pretty, it doesnt make them good working dogs but you cannot deny that a great deal are better looking than their working counterparts (Like Collies and BC's)

Actually, I can easily deny that over-sized, overly coated, out of condition, dull witted, no instinct Collies and BCs are better looking than their working counterparts. My dogs are from working lines, yet compete in conformation along with performance events, which is what I think you should strive for in a breeding program, especially with a herding or sporting dog.

 

[whatszmatter]

Sure it may be an ego thing, but as I see it, BC's were maintained as a breed, a very intelligent, working, distinguishable breed, maintained by their parent club, and well respected among the canine world. Then a few years ago the AKC got involved. Why would the BC people feel they need them?? Especially considering the track record of working dogs in the AKC??

Do I blame the working people from rejecting anything to do with the AKC. Whenever a working dog get its acceptance by the AKC, its only a matter of time before they are nothing but shells of what they used to be. If were working BC's I wouldn't look for a dog to have AKC anything involved in its history.

As I said before, people fell in love with BC's because they are smart, energetic, and loyal, then they get shown in AKC show rings and they're described to the public and people fall in love with that image, then the public gets hold and decides that they're too much dog and they get watered down. But to them they still own a BC, no they don't they own a shell of what used to be a BC, or dobe, or GSD. WHo cares if ego is involved, i still say, if you don't want a dog that works, don't F'in get one. and yes, i have the crazy off the wall never ending drive dogs living in my house with small animals that like to run (cats) and neighborhood children over often. So those "crazy" dogs can be trained and lived with quite harmoniously even in small apts in the city, i've done it. Its a lame freakin excuse to water down a breed, how bout just admit you're too lazy and should get a fish instead.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

AKC did not "get involved".

You must solicit the AKC to get a breed organized.

The Border Collie had been languishing in the Miscellaneous Class for many years, and they were told to make doody or get off the pot.

 

[tempura tantrum]

Then a few years ago the AKC got involved. Why would the BC people feel they need them??

You do realize that the AKC doesn't just randomly approach breed clubs and go "hey there- you look as if you'd enjoy being part of America's biggest and best-known purebred canine registry, care to join?"

The AKC didn't just "get involved." Some (notice I said *some*) BC people *asked* them to. BREED CLUBS must petition AKC for acceptance. They must show that they have a large enough representation in the country to maintain lines, and have a closed studbook. In short, a fairly large number of people *already in the breed* must be actively pursuing AKC recognition. So really it does come down to your question, why WOULD the BC people think they needed AKC recognition?

I have no doubts that a great deal of people in BCs *didn't* want it, and I can understand why. Breeds that are accepted into the AKC get a lot more public recognition than those that aren't, and this can often spell disaster when BYBs or people who care more about winning than the breed get involved. But to blame a registry which does nothing but approve breeds for recognition using their OWN breed standards, is throwing the blame in the wrong direction.

The fact of the matter is, there were enough people in BCs in this country that WANTED to be part of the AKC that the breed got accepted. I can point out several breeds that will most likely NEVER get accepted, purely because anyone who shows interest in getting the breed into AKC never gets a dog! These breeds are kept under wraps and guarded very carefully by those who breed them.

Still, it's not like as soon as your breed gets accepted to the AKC you are automatically informed that you must now become a sell-out. Once again- what happens to your breed once it's accepted is entirely up to those who breed it. Unfortunately for BCs, enough people who weren't so interested in the breed as a whole, so much as they were interested in the possibility of creating something that could be come a flashy winner got involved. And viola- breed split.

While popularity *is* rising in Shibas, I think at least up to this point we've done a heck of a great job scaring people away from this breed.
We don't believe in "watering down" Shibas anymore than you believe in "watering down" BCs. If people aren't interested in owning an animal that would make Satan cry, well then guess what? They don't get a Shiba! We take it as a point of pride that most people would rather get dragged behind a Mack truck by their toes than own one of these guys. I've yet to see anyone in Shibas say, "you know...lets start breeding Shibas with an easier temperament...I want a dog I can put a UDX on, and then go HIT at the National Obedience Championships with." We're a tight-knit community, and that is a *credit* to the breed. Having the sort of vitriol that I've seen displayed by people on either side of the BC split can only do more harm than good.

I can't say it enough- it's NOT AKC that does this to breeds! It's BREEDERS! There are plenty of breeds out there who seem to do just fine with AKC acceptance, and plenty of people in breeds with splits that are still working their hardest to produce animals that can fulfill both (thanks for the example, Colliewog ). I'm more impressed with these people than I will be with people on EITHER side who say that such a thing cannot or should not be done.

And once again, this *doesn't* mean that I have ANY sort of a problem with dogs that are purely working dogs. I *do* however think that people that maintain programs purely focused on conformation should get involved in *some* other type of dog sport.

EDIT- sorry Red, we posted at about the same time!

 

[ihartgonzo]

About the AKC getting "involved"... however it is that BC's were accepted, I completely feel the breed was better off as a whole before it was recognized.

That is besides the point though, is it right to breed a dog whose temperament is nearly a 180* from what the breed's real purpose requires?

Would you breed a vicious CKCS? Or a Lab who is afraid of water? Or a Bloodhound who cannot scent? Or an aloof, lazy Shiba Inu? Regardless of how beautifully they were built.You get the point.

 

[colliewog]

About the AKC getting "involved"... however it is that BC's were accepted, I completely feel the breed was better off as a whole before it was recognized.

That is besides the point though, is it right to breed a dog whose temperament is nearly a 180* from what the breed's real purpose requires?

Would you breed a vicious CKCS? Or a Lab who is afraid of water? Or a Bloodhound who cannot scent? Or an aloof, lazy Shiba Inu? Regardless of how beautifully they were built.You get the point.

The BC was probably better off staying out of AKC, but like the others said, the AKC didn't pull them in. A group of people had to form a parent club, write a standard, etc. and petition to become AKC registered. The breeders are the ones that are ruining the breed - losing all natural instincts in pursuit of physical perfection. (Supermodels if you will - Divas with no worldly experience).

No, you shouldn't breed dogs with those flaws, but it happens every day. It's human nature that is ruining these breeds. Judges are influenced by fads (not all but most) and let's say that if all of the Collie bitches in the ring are 65 lbs or over, then my 52 lb bitch looks out of place and doesn't win. But they are both correct by the standard. If I want to fit in, then I would breed to the same studs they are, breed bigger dogs and possibly have a chance at winning big in conformation. Instead, I maintain lithe active dogs (in the standard!) and they can herd, guard, and think (scary smart dogs)! So we don't always win, but when I look my dog in the eyes, there is someone home.

 

[tempura tantrum]

That is besides the point though, is it right to breed a dog whose temperament is nearly a 180* from what the breed's real purpose requires?

Would you breed a vicious CKCS? Or a Lab who is afraid of water? Or a Bloodhound who cannot scent? Or an aloof, lazy Shiba Inu? Regardless of how beautifully they were built.You get the point.

Of course I wouldn't breed any of these. (Except for the "aloof" Shiba- they're absolutely *supposed* to be aloof ). But that was the whole point I've been trying to get across this entire time. You *can* be accepted by the AKC and STILL breed correct dogs. It isn't a mutually exclusive endeavor. I show in the AKC and my bitch is correct. She isn't a showy or flashy mover. She doesn't shower the judge with kisses or waggle, bark, or jump in the ring. She isn't *dripping* in coat. She isn't Irish Setter red, she's flame orange. And yeah, sometimes this puts us at a disadvantage, but the people who know what they're doing recognize that she's true to standard, and has something to offer.

And as for the dog in question- I wouldn't breed her either- her temperament doesn't seem to fit the BC standard whatsoever. It's about looking at the entire package- and that's something I've rallied for since the beginning.

 

[ihartgonzo]

Ok, I agree then, Tempura. I think I'm going to talk to the breeder in question tomorrow morning... nicely talk. I wanted to print out some stuff from a BC community, but I might just talk to her about it, and if she's interested, THEN print it out or e-mail her the link. Hopefully I don't get bvtched out. With this lady, that is a real possibility!

Sorry. Aloof was the wrong word. I was trying to get at a word that means "not attentive", or "content with whatever"... my vocabulary blows.

 

[tempura tantrum]

LOL- no problem Gonzo- the occupational hazards of living with an English major twin include turning into a freak over vocabulary.

Good luck with the talk- and I *would* prepare to get a less than stellar response. We all know that our dogs are our "babies," and even if we know their faults, we don't want anyone else to point them out!!

At any rate, it's good to see so many people truly committed to preserving the BC as it was intended to be. And if it's a dog that can work all week and hit the conformation ring on the weekend...well then I'll be even more ecstatic.