I think this is one of the really interesting differences between positive methods and compulsive/punitive methods. Positive methods develop intelligence, problem solving, activity and confidence. Punishment suppresses dogs, reducing activity, exploration, problem solving and confidence.
People raising sport dogs generally want a lot more of the former and very little of the latter, especially in sports with lots of variety in expectations, like agility. But, in patterned or precise sports that punish "creativity" (think competition obedience), purely positive methods often lead to excessive offering and anticipation. I'm not saying it's impossible to train for seriously competitive obedience with only positive methods, the common problem I see from purely positive trainers is a lack of patterned, consistent behavior. The dogs are happy- but they don't concentrate on perfection, bc doing it again is generally an option.
Now, think what most people want in a housedog- reliability, politeness (aka suppression), quietness (aka suppression), patience (aka reduced activity and offering) and a following mindset (aka not overly confident). I totally get raising a sport dog with very positive methods- I do so myself. What I don't understand is raising a house dog (that is never meant to do sport) without correction. People's natural instinct is to scold a dog who gets in the trash, steals food, etc. This generally works really well and is so much easier than jumping through a thousand hoops to teach a "wait". "Stop" is simple, "wait" is complicated. And, "wait" isn't what people want. People just want the house dog never to put his head in the trash. Is it really such a bad idea to teach them that? And would anyone really want to live in a house 24/7 with a super confident, drivey, offering, creative dog?
Dana;
My dogs are house dogs, I don't have kennels, they sleep in our beds and the only time they are crated is when we are gone. And I do that because of same sex aggression issues that can be a problem within my breed, not because I am worried that they will destroy the house. I don't have a problem with chewing nor with trash raiding.
Now to give you a little history, one dog is very well trained in agility, another has a bit and has competed in the lowest levels to earn some Q's. One bitch has had almost no training for anything, not obedience, agility or other sports but she does hunt (all my dogs are required to hunt). One bitch (our oldest) didn't have a career in any ring either. And I have a young adult.
I don't have dogs jumping around me offering behaviours nor is that what we want to the degree that you seem to think we do. I have very confident dogs, but their activity levels is generally sleeping their days away until I want to do somethng with them, at that time they do rise to the occassion but by no means hyper. I want and expect dogs to wait at doors, even an open door while I leave whether the door is open or not, the dogs (except my husbands dog) will sit until asked to come out or released with a done.
So in short I have super confident, drivey, laid back dogs that have an off switch which they use all the time. About the only time they throwing (offering) behaviours at me is when I play the clicker game of 101 Ones Things You Can Do With Your Dog.
For agility the LAST thing anyone should want their dog doing is offering behaviours, that would mean we would have dogs running amuck doing equipment in hopes of getting a reward, which is not wanted nor is it allowed.
In agility the clicker or a marker is used in the very beginning of learning behaviours and is quickly faded.
If clicker training was as you think it is especially with me having a breed that is very high drive and to many are considered to be over the top and hyper I should have been in some serious trouble this past year. Especially if my dogs were offering behaviours at random, been trained to think for themselves and be creative. Nothing could be further from the truth, my poor dogs have been on house arrest, a tree limb had destroyed my backyard fence and my dogs had a pitiful yard to go out in (I ve seen horse stalls larger). They didn't get daily runs or even walks, they were house bound. Fall, winter and spring. It was bordering on cruel as far as I was concerned but there was little I could do about it, especially since the dogs seemed to be fine.
I had a new jrt puppy, got her at 5 1/2 months old last fall, she had been kenneled all summer (at the breeders until I got her), never been on leash and certainly didn't have a recall, no training on her except to be crate trained. In the two weeks before I became ill I had started training her with a clicker, she learned an off leash heel and an on leash heel, sit, down and a lovely recall, and to wait in an open crate until asked to come out, in those two weeks.
Then my world crashed when I became so very ill. So in short, by your theroy my dogs shouldn't have been all that they have been this past year because certain behaviours had been taught with a marker/clicker.
And a lot of the training services that I offer is inhome training by me for people that can't deal with problems, don't have the time or just want some else to do the job for and are more than willing to pay for it.
All these people want is for their pet to behave, to have nice manners and to walk on a leash without pulling them along whether it be a puppy or an adult doesn't matter. I use a clicker because I can get those behaviours very quickly and with results that stay with the dog. I fade the clicker quickly and certainly don't have those clients purchase one. Hell if they are paying me to train the dog, they usually are not interested in how I get the results (although most don't want harsh corrections), as long as I get results that last. Last step is to train them how to keep the behaviours. Had no complaints yet but I often see people (lol I usually meet them at Walmart) who continue to be happy with the results, even years later.
Luckily for me, meds have started to work and I can now start back at a bit of training again. Competing too!!!
Gezz I ve missed it.
Wow, I got rambling again.