in trouble

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by a.baker, Jul 31, 2008.

  1. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2006
    Messages:
    4,089
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    7
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada

    :hail::hail::hail:

    Much better than my middle of the night rant :D

    Dana: Interesting point about my father, he would not have a dog he had to confine he wanted them loose for many reasons. But I clearly remember one time when I had to put the trash out at the road, we had an extra bag, that wouldn't fit into the can. I put the trash, our dogs got into that bag, it was ME not the dogs who caught it the next day. According to my dad, dogs will be dogs and that was my responsiblity..........the dogs were not punished, but I had to clean up that mess.
     
  2. Gempress

    Gempress Walks into Mordor

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    11,955
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Like Doc said, a clicker is a reward marker---not a crutch. That's one of the biggest falsehoods out there. People seem to think that clicker trainers are somehow incapacitated without their clicker. FALSE!

    A clicker is a tool, just like any other. People would no more panic when they lost a clicker than if they lost their training collar. There is only ONE basic difference between a clicker and something like a prong collar or scolding voice. A clicker tells the dog when they've done right. A training collar or scold tells them when they've done wrong. That's it.

    I used the clicker to polish Voodoo's obedience speed. I haven't taken it out of the drawer for more than a year. But my dog still obeys promptly.
     
  3. dr2little

    dr2little Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    7,402
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    5 dogs
    Home Page:
    Another huge benefit of clicker training is that it teaches the human to focus more on what the dog does right instead of constantly waiting for the dog to do something wrong.

    I can't imagine going back to my the old methods that we all used to use (if you're as old as I am and have been doing it for a coons age:p). Not because I'm an old softy now but because the dogs that I train now are much more successful, reliable and predictable...Oh, and best of all.....HAPPIER, WILLING PARTICIPANTS IN THEIR TRAINING.:D

    Training never has to include fear, intimidation or pain....
     
  4. dr2little

    dr2little Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    7,402
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    5 dogs
    Home Page:
    ZACTLY!!!! :D
     
  5. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2007
    Messages:
    6,403
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Two dogs, three cats
    Location:
    Central Texas
    This is a good point, and this is one main reason why I personally like to do clicker training - it forces me to focus on my dog's good behaviors, and somewhat ignore the bad behaviors. In my mind, I'm counting, for example, how many times my dog returned to heel position on his own, instead of counting how many times I had to correct him for getting out of position. This makes ME happier, as well as making my dog happier, and if we're both happy, we're much more likely to want to train again.
     
  6. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2006
    Messages:
    4,089
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    7
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Another thing, an animal whether it be a dog, horse, human etc, that isn't worried about making a mistake will learn faster. They are much more willing to try something, to see if that is what we wanted.
    I would much rather have an animal offer a behaviour and not do the one I was seeking, than an animal do nothing or be worried about its choice.
    I have far more experience in training horses than dogs and I figured out about 30 yrs ago that I had far better results with a reward based method than corrections. Interesting that although I never sought them out, it was the so called problem horses that came my way.
     
  7. Boemy

    Boemy New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2006
    Messages:
    2,481
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think the greatest thing about the clicker is the precision of it. You can mark a behavior quickly, much quicker than saying a word, so the dog quickly learns what action you want.

    At the same time, I think some people feel that scolding means "screaming at your pet" or "putting the fear of God into your pet". Well, those are not synonymous. Nor is telling your dog "no" going to "ruin it forever" (as one random lady in PetCo told me. :rolleyes: )

    When I scold, I don't raise my voice--not unless they're about to do something REALLY dangerous that needs to stop IMMMEDIATELY (like say one of them is about to jump onto a hot stove.) I just change my tone to "the mom tone." You know the one--"Johnny Buckley, I'm going to count to three . . ." :p My observation is that the more positive your relationship with your pet is, the more effective scolding is. When Remy, the kitty in my avatar, was a kitten he was very flighty and handshy. I could scold my other kitten, Booster, but I couldn't scold Remy because he'd get very scared. I think he must have had some bad experiences in his former home. :(

    Anyway, after a few months he began to warm up to me . . . He's about three years old now and he's come so far. He's become a gorgeous, confident cat who loves being petted and getting attention. And now I can scold him and he doesn't get fearful because now he understands that it doesn't mean I'm going to hit him (I've never hit my pets), it doesn't even mean that I'm angry with him, it just means he's doing something inappropriate and needs to stop. And he does. Not out of fear (and believe me, I can recognize his fearful mood!) I've been careful not to give any of my pets, but especially not him, reason to fear me.

    I do include a lot of positive interactions, of course, and if a kitty stops doing something bad after I scold, then I pet and praise them and perhaps offer them a treat. I could never train mainly with treats because Booster, the biggest cat, is a total chowhound. If I give him "the eye" then he won't steal the other cats treats, but he will hover in the background hopefully. Unfortunately this makes Remy so nervous that he'll often walk away from the treat and Booster ends up with it anyway. :rolleyes: If Remy does manage to eat the treat, he takes so long about it (picking it up, dropping it, nervously eyeing Booster, picking it up, dropping it) that I doubt he would remember what it's for in the first place by the time he got it down.
     
  8. a.baker

    a.baker New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    4
    Location:
    Michigan
    Thanks for starting a clicker thread because this whole thing is getting off topic :)

    Now when you watch a pack or other dogs communicate to each other, the reason why I chose food for the example, fear, setting who is in what place and testing each other to learn is because:

    You watch a dog have food and another dog try to go for it. Well the one with the food will protect its dinner by growling and/or snapping at the other dog. The other dog will test until the one with the food places "fear" onto the dog who is trying to steal his food. See what I mean?

    Oh lol the fear you place in your dog could be a time out, taking his food or treat away, taking his toys away, what ever. Same thing being discussed just sensitivity on what others title it.

    So anyways what do you do for what ever you want to call it?

    Thanks Boemy for getting this thread back on topic. Interesting since I have never had a cat to train.


    I used to take food or treats away along with using my tone of voice. Some times I still do both but I noticed my tone of voice is all thats needed at this point.
     
  9. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2006
    Messages:
    8,854
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    Environmental Science
    Location:
    Vermont
    But the thing is, I'm fairly confident that Meg has figured out I'm not a dog. I can't offer a correction like a dog can, because I'm not as quick with my teeth or as good at growling;). In your example, the dog with the food offers those as "corrections". They don't go take the other dog's food or toys away, or make him go sit in the corner and think about what he has done. So in the first paragraph, you are saying we should treat the dog as if we are another dog, then you contradict it in the second.

    My dog is incredibly reliable around food (to stick with your example). I don't ever worry about her jumping on a counter or table, even our low coffee table. I can leave a plate of food on the floor, tell her "leave it" (trained originally with a clicker and treats), and walk out of the room without worrying. My friend and I actually had a good laugh one night; we were trying to catch a loose, nearly feral dog in a nearby neighborhood, and had come armed with Meg and one of her dogs, and McDonald's cheeseburgers. We kept leaving the car to walk around, cheeseburgers on the dash and both dogs loose in the car. Neither dog even tried to get the stinky meat. Again, two dogs trained with clickers.

    Meg has been a godsend to me, because she has taught me to be very, very good at training with extremely minimal corrections. I can hardly use a NRM on her, because she decides to stop playing. She is the ultimate example of "think in terms of what you want your dog to do, not what you don't want them to do". I didn't teach her she wasn't allowed to touch food without permission; I taught her to wait for permission before touching food. A very important distinction to her. My future dogs are going to be very grateful I had Meg in my life! Most dogs aren't going to care so much about something like a verbal correction, but if I can train without it, I'm sure going to!
     
  10. dr2little

    dr2little Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    7,402
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    5 dogs
    Home Page:
    OK, back on topic...;)
    I absolutely never use a dogs name in any tone or prior to any action that is not positive, particularly when they're pups. This alone is one of the quickest ways to ruin a recall.


    This is a good way to teach a dog to resource guard.

    I'm seriously not trying to be unkind but so much of what I'm reading in your posts are huge red flags. It would be great if you could enroll in a puppy class in your area, one that uses current methods.
     
  11. Sch3Dana

    Sch3Dana Workin' Dog

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2008
    Messages:
    391
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think you just misunderstood what a.baker meant. Didn't she mean she withholds the rewards and scolds? Not that she takes food away from the dog once it's given?
     
  12. Sch3Dana

    Sch3Dana Workin' Dog

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2008
    Messages:
    391
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think this is one of the really interesting differences between positive methods and compulsive/punitive methods. Positive methods develop intelligence, problem solving, activity and confidence. Punishment suppresses dogs, reducing activity, exploration, problem solving and confidence.

    People raising sport dogs generally want a lot more of the former and very little of the latter, especially in sports with lots of variety in expectations, like agility. But, in patterned or precise sports that punish "creativity" (think competition obedience), purely positive methods often lead to excessive offering and anticipation. I'm not saying it's impossible to train for seriously competitive obedience with only positive methods, the common problem I see from purely positive trainers is a lack of patterned, consistent behavior. The dogs are happy- but they don't concentrate on perfection, bc doing it again is generally an option.

    Now, think what most people want in a housedog- reliability, politeness (aka suppression), quietness (aka suppression), patience (aka reduced activity and offering) and a following mindset (aka not overly confident). I totally get raising a sport dog with very positive methods- I do so myself. What I don't understand is raising a house dog (that is never meant to do sport) without correction. People's natural instinct is to scold a dog who gets in the trash, steals food, etc. This generally works really well and is so much easier than jumping through a thousand hoops to teach a "wait". "Stop" is simple, "wait" is complicated. And, "wait" isn't what people want. People just want the house dog never to put his head in the trash. Is it really such a bad idea to teach them that? And would anyone really want to live in a house 24/7 with a super confident, drivey, offering, creative dog?
     
  13. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2006
    Messages:
    4,089
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    7
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Dana;
    My dogs are house dogs, I don't have kennels, they sleep in our beds and the only time they are crated is when we are gone. And I do that because of same sex aggression issues that can be a problem within my breed, not because I am worried that they will destroy the house. I don't have a problem with chewing nor with trash raiding.
    Now to give you a little history, one dog is very well trained in agility, another has a bit and has competed in the lowest levels to earn some Q's. One bitch has had almost no training for anything, not obedience, agility or other sports but she does hunt (all my dogs are required to hunt). One bitch (our oldest) didn't have a career in any ring either. And I have a young adult.
    I don't have dogs jumping around me offering behaviours nor is that what we want to the degree that you seem to think we do. I have very confident dogs, but their activity levels is generally sleeping their days away until I want to do somethng with them, at that time they do rise to the occassion but by no means hyper. I want and expect dogs to wait at doors, even an open door while I leave whether the door is open or not, the dogs (except my husbands dog) will sit until asked to come out or released with a done.
    So in short I have super confident, drivey, laid back dogs that have an off switch which they use all the time. About the only time they throwing (offering) behaviours at me is when I play the clicker game of 101 Ones Things You Can Do With Your Dog.
    For agility the LAST thing anyone should want their dog doing is offering behaviours, that would mean we would have dogs running amuck doing equipment in hopes of getting a reward, which is not wanted nor is it allowed.
    In agility the clicker or a marker is used in the very beginning of learning behaviours and is quickly faded.
    If clicker training was as you think it is especially with me having a breed that is very high drive and to many are considered to be over the top and hyper I should have been in some serious trouble this past year. Especially if my dogs were offering behaviours at random, been trained to think for themselves and be creative. Nothing could be further from the truth, my poor dogs have been on house arrest, a tree limb had destroyed my backyard fence and my dogs had a pitiful yard to go out in (I ve seen horse stalls larger). They didn't get daily runs or even walks, they were house bound. Fall, winter and spring. It was bordering on cruel as far as I was concerned but there was little I could do about it, especially since the dogs seemed to be fine.
    I had a new jrt puppy, got her at 5 1/2 months old last fall, she had been kenneled all summer (at the breeders until I got her), never been on leash and certainly didn't have a recall, no training on her except to be crate trained. In the two weeks before I became ill I had started training her with a clicker, she learned an off leash heel and an on leash heel, sit, down and a lovely recall, and to wait in an open crate until asked to come out, in those two weeks.
    Then my world crashed when I became so very ill. So in short, by your theroy my dogs shouldn't have been all that they have been this past year because certain behaviours had been taught with a marker/clicker.
    And a lot of the training services that I offer is inhome training by me for people that can't deal with problems, don't have the time or just want some else to do the job for and are more than willing to pay for it.
    All these people want is for their pet to behave, to have nice manners and to walk on a leash without pulling them along whether it be a puppy or an adult doesn't matter. I use a clicker because I can get those behaviours very quickly and with results that stay with the dog. I fade the clicker quickly and certainly don't have those clients purchase one. Hell if they are paying me to train the dog, they usually are not interested in how I get the results (although most don't want harsh corrections), as long as I get results that last. Last step is to train them how to keep the behaviours. Had no complaints yet but I often see people (lol I usually meet them at Walmart) who continue to be happy with the results, even years later.
    Luckily for me, meds have started to work and I can now start back at a bit of training again. Competing too!!!:D Gezz I ve missed it.

    Wow, I got rambling again. :rolleyes:
     
  14. Maxy24

    Maxy24 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2006
    Messages:
    8,070
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Cats, Dog, Leopard Gecko, Gerbils, Fish, African C
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Perhaps you are forgetting that these things do not need to be seen as suppression, they can be the dog changing his mind. Politeness such as not jumping up, although I train it with punishment (turn my back and ignore), can also be trained by asking the dog to sit and praising when he does, until he makes the choice to sit because that works best at getting attention and then later is continues out of habit and because doing so has always been so positive. I don't know what behaviors you were thinking of when you mentioned politeness but it does not have to be suppression, it can be redirection.

    Quietness can also be the dog's choice. Have someone ring the bell (or put him in any other situation that elicits barking), wait for the dog to stop barking, click and treat. Then continue clicking and treating for continued silence. OR put quiet and speak on command.

    I don't know what exactly is meant by patience. If someone wants reduced activity they need to exercise their dogs and choose a dog with a lesser energy level. If they need to punish the dog for being active then they got the wrong dog. As far as reduced offering I don't understand what that has to do with patience, do you mean while training? I mean if you are not training the dog does not walk around the house smacking things with her paws, poking with her nose and jumping over them in hopes their owner will click, they offer behaviors during training so you can stand there and wait for what you want and offer encouragement to keep the dog offering during the session. Self control can be taught/practiced and I do not consider that suppression (like not barking, not pulling on the leash etc.).

    A dog can be confident and still do what he is told, he is given the choice between obeying and not obeying but amazingly dogs really like when good things happen so they begin to LOVE obeying you. Generally it is also important that when the do makes the choice not to obey you that he can get no reward from it, so yes prevention is very important when using this type of training, but guess what, it's not that hard.

    But as I said I do use punishment by removing good things (negative punishment) so I guess some would say I use fear (the dog is afraid he will not get what he wants) but I must say it's a very different fear. I doubt they feel that feeling of fear that they get when being hit, yelled at, leash popped, scruffed, rolled or otherwise physically pushed around while their owner is all upset. The reason i don't think they feel that is because they don't react in that manner, their ears don't go back, they don't crouch, they don't start giving whale eye or moving slower avoiding eye contact. I think they get more frustrated.

    But whatever, I'm not saying you need to stop your methods, I'm simply defending mine because you seem to have many misconceptions or are thinking in a very narrow-minded way about clicker training. Even if this is not to prove it to you I need to make sure that others, lurkers and new members, who read this thread are not misled into thinking clicker training/positive training is not for the average owner and dog, that could not be farther from the truth.
     
  15. dr2little

    dr2little Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    7,402
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    5 dogs
    Home Page:
    Since when does training an incompatible behaviour simply suppress the original behaviour. Behaviour suppression comes when punishment is used to directly zone in on what was done wrong (to suppress an action) but gives little information about what to do right in place of an unwanted behaviour. What HAS been proven is that it is much more confusing for a dog when a positive (wanted) behaviour is rewarded right after a correction was delivered for something unwanted.

    My 11:00 session today is a great example. Unfortunately this dog (a very big, beautiful blood hound boy) has been punished for two very serious behavious, growling, snapping...(when resource guarding), and reactivity to other dogs. The first has caused this dog of course to guard harder and he has now delivered level one's to most of the family and the very predictable level 2 finally came the other night.

    The second, reactivity to other dogs has been punished using both a shock collar and various swift physical corrections for any indication that he was about to lunge. This did nothing but increase his anxiety and desire to squash whatever causing him to be corrected (though he appeared "cured")..... but what's much worse, this ignorance gave the owners false confidence about his actual "training". The fight that was inevitable caused his ear to be torn almost in half and the other dog to spend many days in ICU.

    Both of these HUGE errors in judgement on the part of the last trainer have left these folks with an enormous dog that they're afraid of.
    I will NOT be supressing the symptom of the issues (resource growling and dog reactivity) but rather addressing what actually causes those actions so as not to further supress behaviour and create a bigger time bomb for the owners and a bleek future for the dog. And yes, I will be using positive methods....
     
  16. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2006
    Messages:
    4,089
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    7
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Maxy great post ^^^^

    Something came to mind this morning that should be pointed out and made clear. There is a difference between Shaping a behaviour and Marking a behaviour.
    It is during Shaping that a dog learns to start offering behaviours. So if you never do any Shaping, the dog shouldn't start throwing behaviours at you.
     
  17. dr2little

    dr2little Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    7,402
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    5 dogs
    Home Page:
    That's what one would think but I see dogs who are happy and confident offering behaviour all the time..who are completely new to the concept.

    Actually, we proved this to some in the Nicole Wilde seminar this weekend (which wasn't all that great..:(). Dogs who had previously been trained with lure, or were a pretty clean slate, would still offer behaviours, certainly not the way that dogs who are used to shapping did but it happens often. There are of course dogs who give up really quickly and do not offer behaviours if they haven't been given a clear direction of what was expected. It really depends a lot on the trainer though and your idea of what your session should look like.

    I guess it comes down to what behaviour you consider an 'offering'. I tend to break behaviours down quite a bit so any step in the right direction get a mark.:) To some a head turn is an offering, others may expect something more obvious.
     
  18. Sch3Dana

    Sch3Dana Workin' Dog

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2008
    Messages:
    391
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    As soon as anyone talks about methods that utilize R- and P+ there is a whole group of people ready to jump in and defend the perfection of their R+ and P- and the ignorance that is R- and P+. The funny thing- I'm mostly a trainer who uses R+ and P-. I'm with you 90% of the time. But isn't it possible that some of the time there are other tools that work well? Do I become the enemy bc I've noticed that sometimes P+ and R- actually work well? I've never said it was necessary. All I've suggested is that it does work and that it does give a different result and then I come back to multiple replies about people who don't use it and their dogs came out fine. So what? That wasn't the point. I don't doubt you or challenge you. I'm glad you enjoy your training and that it is working for you.

    A person starts this thread by asking about scolding a dog, something 99% of dog owners do, at least occassionally. Is this person really so crazy for using a tool that has been used for thousands of years with quite a bit of success? What is it that is so terrible about scolding anyway? I get that many of you train without it. That's fine. But why should we convince everyone that they should train without it? Are you arguing that it doesn't work? Or that it's unspeakably cruel?

    I'm arguing that it gives a different result. And that the common side effects of both training styles are very different. That's something I would think most of you agree with. And, I never said every dog trained with purely positive methods has dancing feet and reliability problems. I said that was a common side effect. Just like hand shyness is a common side effect in dogs that people hit. Some people hit their dogs without creating this side effect.

    But if you're choosing methods, you should know what tends to happen when that method is applied imperfectly, as most of us train imperfectly. And, some of those side effects are unavoidable. Like, dogs trained with more positive methods tend to have more varied behavior bc they are not afraid to try new things and they have learned how to learn. Making them much more likely to manipulate visitors into sharing food. Or, like my Marco- more likely to learn how to open doors. My old dogs trained with much more compulsive methods didn't do that sort of stuff. Haven't you all noticed this too? Isn't it one of the reasons you fight against more compulsive methods? Because you don't like to see inhibited dogs?
     

Share This Page