I'm Going to Breed Roxy Mae

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Just to put in my two cents...

I find it decidedly hypocritical to advocate the breeding of a pure-bred dog above that of a mix. I've volunteered in two shelters in two states over a period of several years, and I guarantee that shelters see "responsibly bred" dogs just as often as those horrible, ghastly mutts. There are too many dogs and not enough homes. There will not be any more homes if all the shelter dogs magically turn into finished champions.

And the fact that people seem to miss is that because of their genetic variability, mixed breed dogs tend to be healthier throughout their lives because they aren't sucseptible to the same genetic diseases that pure-breeds are. Selective breeding for specific desired traits has opened our dogs up to nearly debilitating genetic flaws that would not have developed if variety had been maintained in the gene pool. Because of what we've done, pure-bred dogs are far more likely to develop nasty mortal illness and psychologically rooted behavioral problems. Selective breeding alone is to blame for the malformations advocated by people who claim to "love the breed" while they continue to instill the very traits that are KILLING THEIR DOGS. So many dogs are in chronic pain because of structural defects implanted through selective breeding. So many don't have control of their own minds for the same reason. There are thousands of dogs that are completely miserable because of the shapes we've forced their bodies to take, both externally and internally.

There is such a thing as a "reputable breeder". There are breeders who genuinely care about their dogs and want to share their love for their breeds with other responsible owners. But these breeders produce the minority of the pure-bred population, simply because a BYB will produce more pups faster. By attempting to keep the gene pool pristine, we're just plunging these poor animals deeper into genetically recessive misery.

I love every dog. I've never met one I didn't want to take home. I've never met one who couldn't learn. But I've met enough mutts and enough pure-bred dogs to understand that the mutts have it easier, gene-wise. I think this goes far beyond the ethics of individual breeders. It comes down to entities such as kennel clubs and the FCI who promote the breeding of animals for "desirable" physical characteristics and use social pressure to make the general population believe that breeding mutts is "wrong" and ethical breeders only breed pure animals. They've succeeded in convincing us that mutts are inferior. Even the term "pure-bred" implies that mixed dogs are lesser individuals. Nothing chaps my ass like listening to someone list off their 30 finished champions who all died of liver failure at the age of 7. But gosh, were they pretty! :rolleyes: Very little demonstrates mankind's selfish narcissism quite like the dog breeding industry. The extreme physical circumstances that dogs are forced into by birthright can kill them. But that's okay, because it's cute.

I'm stepping off my soapbox. But the bare bones are here: stagnant genetics are responsible for more pain in more dogs than we'll ever comprehend. There's no reason to expose innocent animals to this. Our only excuse, which we've covered up with layers and layers of justification, is that we want to perpetuate our control in making an ever more "perfect" dog.

While the dogs suffer.

But at least they were cute.
 

BagelDog

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Go to the animal shelter. Look at all the dogz. Realize, that some of those dogs will die, because people like you, random breeders, no kennels, breed there dogs, and even if the homes seem good, the pups end up there. Im not calling you a bad person, saying 'people like you", I just mean backyard breeders, the ones breeding just for the fun of it, not really for any good traits. I volunteer at an animal shelter, and have for nearly 3 years, and it still sickens me to hear that people are breeding there dogs. Please think hard before you breed your dog. Puppy are cute sure, but how cute are dead puppys?

***Claps to CreatureTeachers speech***

So very very true CreatureTeacher.
 

bubbatd

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Emma...Amen. !!! When I bred Goldens many years ago it was for the temperment of my dogs. I was very careful to make sure my dogs had all clearances and stayed within the standards. A very well known lady within our Golden Retriever who had many Champion Goldens came up with a litter than showed problems as adults ( cancer ) she stopped breeding any dogs that may have carried the genes. This was a responsible breeder.
 

Ash47

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Good speech Emma. I agree with everything you said. Bagel, I am not a "byb." I am letting her have one litter. No more. No less. I want to bring puppies into this world that will carry on her wonderful temperament, her intelligence, and beautifully built little body. I am not going to make any money, so it is not about that at all. I am not doing this to watch the "miracle of birth." I'm not doing this because puppies are soooo cute. I am doing this because I love Chihuahuas. Never met one I didn't like. Roxy is a great example of a great dog. And I want her to pass that on.
 
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Emma, you need to spend more time on a soapbox ;)

My bigggest gripe with those who breed crosses is that it is so rare that it is done for a purpose other than carelessness, apathy, ignorance, cash, vanity . . . you get the idea. Those reprehensible reasons for producing pups aren't just limited to cross breeders though, they are every bit as rampant - maybe more so - in breeders of 'pure' breeds. I don't know how many times I pass signs in yards that say "AKC (fill in breed here) for sale." [shudders] You can imagine what it makes me want to do :eek:
 

RD

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Showpug, I thought about it, and I have no argument for you because my breed's true standards are as far from that of the Chihuahua as they get. I know very little about Chis, and quite honestly I don't know much about the breeding of dogs that don't WORK. I do not, and will not breed toy breeds. I guess it's true that all they have going for them is conformation.. Again, I don't have any argument there. There is nothing else to base a breeding program around, so it is more fitting to be more critical of a Chihuahua's conformation to AKCs standard than that of a Border Collie's.

I know it's not the standard or the registry that is at fault. it is the breeders and judges. Judges start putting up the "prettiest" and flashiest dogs, and soon the entire "show world" of that breed follows suit. Greedy breeders begin to breed for what wins, and take on the standard the way most judges do, and the standard which was once pure and ideal is now distorted - and the result of that is that what might have once been a magnificent working breed is now known by the general public as something completely different.

But, those are working breeds and these are companion breeds.. I didn't have that clear in my mind when I made that post. Good luck Pro and I hope you make the right decision down the line.
 
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paramount said:
I live in a county where the cheapest house is 1000 square ft with barely a yard sold for $450,000. The cost of a dog is nothing for most people here, yet, 60% of the shelter dogs are pitt mixes. We have some very active breed rescue organizations but still, thats the numbers. I'm also near San Francisco and San Jose, both shelters have atleast 60% pitt mixes. Economics and population density really doesn't have as much of a factor that one would imagine.

The East Coast is richer and more heavily populated than the West Coast, and in my experience the mutt/purebred ratio at shelters here is much closer to 50/50 than the 3/97 you mentioned earlier.
 

showpug

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I guess the important thing is that people don't generalize. I think that breeders need to be looked at on different terms. I know many "show" breeders that won't breed a dog a certain way just because that "style" is winning at the moment. They stick to their guns. A good example of this is in the pug ring. So many people are breeding pugs too large...so large, that they barley fit on laps. Standard for pugs is 14-18 lbs...NO LARGER, but yet, we are watching pugs win in the ring at 25lbs. This is a disgrace to the breed and the show people I know, in fact the majority of them keep their dogs within standard and at the low end of it. So yes, I agree that there are the "sell out" show breeders that only want the win and don't truly care about preserving the dog they love, but on the other hand, there are the good breeders that keep the dogs best interest at heart and breed their breed to standard. I see both ways of looking at it, but I think we know for sure, that there are irresponsible show breeders, "pure-bred" breeders, backyard breeders and mixed-breed breeders. Actually...this brings something to mind. Want to see a website for puppies that I can't stand?? This website makes me so livid that it is unreal :mad: I have written them numerous statements about what they are doing, but it does not do any good. :( Here is the website...it makes me ill. Not to mention the celebrities that have purchased puppies from them. www.wizardofclaws.com T :mad: :mad:
 

Athe

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BRAVO Creature teacher! BRAVO.

I have been working with show people and so called "purebred" breeders for most of my life. I have a hard time accepting the fact of what they are doing is right...I call purebred dogs inbred mixed breeds cause that is exactly what they are. You just take different breeds mix them, inbreed for a few generations and there you have a purebred. :D

Have you read this:
http://www.netpets.com/dogs/reference/genetics/bragg.html#toc

THE SHOW RING has also been largely responsible for the decline of breed purpose, working ability and temperament in a great many breeds, notably sporting breeds, herding breeds and sleddog breeds. The quick and easy gratification of blue ribbons and gilt trophies all too readily supplants the hard work necessary to preserve and advance canine working abilities. If our dog breeds are to conform to the ideal of "a sound mind in a sound body" (as advocated by the proponents of the Advanced Registry), the fancy must find some way of ensuring that less dog-breeding takes place along the lines of least resistance and cheap gratification, so that greater attention is paid to working characteristics, temperament and trainability. A balanced outlook on breed identity must be restored by integrating canine function with the ideals of conformation, beauty and "type." All kinds of dogs, toy breeds not excepted, can perform useful functions and respond to training. Those aspects of the fancy should be accorded an importance at least fully equal to that of type and conformation instead of being regarded as merely optional. For example, breeding and exhibition of utility breeds such as gundogs and sleddogs merely for sale as pets and for dog shows, with no effort made to maintain and advance their working capabilities, is an obvious abuse which must lead inevitably to mental and physical degeneracy in those breeds.
 
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showpug

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Athe said:
BRAVO Creature teacher! BRAVO.

I have been working with show people and so called "purebred" breeders for most of my life. I have a hard time accepting the fact of what they are doing is right...I call purebred dogs inbred mixed breeds cause that is exactly what they are. You just take different breeds mix them, inbreed for a few generations and there you have a purebred. :D

Have you read this:
http://www.netpets.com/dogs/reference/genetics/bragg.html#toc
Could not agree with the above link more. As I have said in the past, their needs to be more that goes in to obtaining a championship. I feel working/herding/sporting dogs should have to prove that they are capable of their purpose along with winning in the conformation ring in order to aquire their championship.

As far as the toy dogs go I don't feel this way. I do think that they should have to pass temperment tests to prove that they would make a suitable companion before breeding, but to force a toy into a working dog completley takes away from it's sole purpose and does exactly what the above statement claims you should not do...destroy the purpose of which a dog was bred. I believe that toy dogs can serve many different functions...some make great watch dogs, some make great ratters, and some make awesome obedience and agility dogs, but I also want to keep toys the way they are. Sweet lap-warming companions :) The extra capabilities are great, but that is not want toys were bred for originally companionship should be first and foremost on the list for these guys.

I think too often toy dogs get dissregarded as having no purpose or job. Companionship is a job and it is one of the most powerful jobs of all in the K9 world. I hold toys on a pedestal for their ability to change lives and comfort human beings. They are the little guys that are always there, waiting at our feet, looking up, just waiting to be loved. These dogs are very close to my heart for the impact they have made on my life :)
 

RD

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OT, but Wizard of Claws makes my blood boil... Nothing but a bunch of greeders, looking to make a buck (Or $6000) at the expense of their animals. :mad:
 

RD

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showpug said:
Could not agree with the above link more. As I have said in the past, their needs to be more that goes in to obtaining a championship. I feel working/herding/sporting dogs should have to prove that they are capable of their purpose along with winning in the conformation ring in order to aquire their championship.

As far as the toy dogs go I don't feel this way. I do think that they should have to pass temperment tests to prove that they would make a suitable companion before breeding, but to force a toy into a working dog completley takes away from it's sole purpose and does exactly what the above statement claims you should not do...destroy the purpose of which a dog was bred. I believe that toy dogs can serve many different functions...some make great watch dogs, some make great ratters, and some make awesome obedience and agility dogs, but I also want to keep toys the way they are. Sweet lap-warming companions :) The extra capabilities are great, but that is not want toys were bred for originally companionship should be first and foremost on the list for these guys.

I think too often toy dogs get dissregarded as having no purpose or job. Companionship is a job and it is one of the most powerful jobs of all in the K9 world. I hold toys on a pedestal for their ability to change lives and comfort human beings. They are the little guys that are always there, waiting at our feet, looking up, just waiting to be loved. These dogs are very close to my heart for the impact they have made on my life :)
I absolutely agree with your post, and also with the link Athe posted.

My "issue" with toy breeds is that (Making a generalization again, not directed at anything in particular) they are not held to very high standards, when it comes to temperament. As long as their conformation is good, and their temperament is stable, they are acceptable. And they ARE, because a very wide variety of personalities exist and most make for outstanding companions.
When I go to a dog show, every toy dog I meet acts VERY different. Comparing that to when I interact with herding dogs, and all share the same personality characteristics. It doesn't matter a lot if a Maltese acts like a Pekignese - both serve as excellent companions. However, if a Labrador had the temperament of a Doberman, it would be removed from the gene pool.

I'm certainly not bashing toys, as I am owned by a hilarious little Papillon, I just think that some of the toy breeders could stand to adopt some of the working dog breeders' fixation on breeding for an ideal, breed-specific temperament. (Unfortunately, very little detail is given to temperament in the breed standard and that leaves a lot open for unscrupulous breeders)
 

bubbatd

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Let's face it... some of us love large breeds....some small. I don't put down any breed. I've never had a small breed, but obviously they are great !
 

Ash47

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Rip,
You are very right. Toys aren't held to very high expectations. I am guessing it is because they are cute and not a lot of people really care what their temperament is?? Well, a lot of small dogs I have met are extremely snappy (more so than big dogs). But Chihuahuas are just wonderful. As Roxy has been growing, I have been very curious about the Chihuahua. I already had done research on the breed, but quickly discovered that you can only find out what the breed is like if you talk to several who have actually owned the particualr breed. All my life, I had heard, "Chihuahuas are snappy. They are the meanest small dog you can get." I just went along with it, not knowing that they had no clue what they were talking about.
As I was researching toy breeds, I took a test and was told that the Bichon was the ideal breed for me. Well, I continued researching and fell head over heels in love with the Chi. I do think that that the Chihuahua's temperament is very overlooked in dog shows. Yes, they are cute. But they are wonderful little dogs with excellent temperaments. I have only ever met one Chi that was snappy. And she was very sick and not trained at all, so she had reason. All other ones have been perfect little ladies and gentlemen.
To sum it all up: Toy breeds are not judged on their temperaments for the most part, they are judged mostly on looks and looks alone. Based on my research (spending ample time with small and large dogs), small dogs generally have a worse attitude than that of the "big dogs." They are cute and tiny and people love that. Big dogs intimidate humans, therefore we want them to be more submissive than small dogs so that we know we have nothing to worry about. Because even if a small dog is mean, it can't do as much damage as a large dog with attitude.
 

Khristine

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these forums freak me out! making me never wanting to come back..

i was going to ask a question about breeding, but i see how touchy this subject is on these forums. When you are looking for an experienced mentor.. how do you go about without hundreds of you people bashing one another?

the most experienced breeders have to start somewhere im guessing. Good luck to you Pro!! goodbye Chazhound Forums.
 

gapeach

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Please don't go Khristine, yeah you do have to start somewhere. There are people here, experienced who can help. We are just very passionate about breeding for the right reasons!
 

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