I'm fed up!!!
- Thread starter RobHedrick
- Start date
I thought I already did offer advice, but I'll do so again...
Getting the dog checked by a vet would be my fist suggestion. Decreased amounts of testosterone in male dogs can contribute to incontinence, and is characterized by these types of symptoms (peeing on themselves). This is usually seen with neutered dogs, but can also happen when there are problems with the adrenal gland (which is also responsible for the body secreting testosterone). Sometimes all it is is nutrition and the dog needs the adrenal gland stimulated, or sometimes it's a tumor. This is the main cause in male dogs and one that should not be over looked.
But he doesn't pee in his crate?.. this isn't necessarily and indication that submissive peeing is the problem. In female dogs it would be more likely because the lack of urinary sphincter control is most noticeable when the dog is at rest, which means you would see them peeing in their crate. With male dogs, however, IF (big if) there is a problem with the adrenal gland, that will be characterized by their lack of control during waking hours... so you may never see "wet spots" like you would with females.
This is what has me skeptical that it is submissive urination. I'm not saying it isn't possible, or that it's not contributing, but a lack of control like that is more indicative of a medical problem.
Also, with puppies, gas can contribute to lack of bladder control. A gassy belly can put pressure on the bladder, and when they change positions it just comes out. I'm experiencing a similar problem with one of my female JRT's. A strict dietary schedule and special treats has helped with the problem. As well as making sure she gets plenty of opportunities to poop.
But if it is submissive peeing, the only thing you can do is, not do anything at all!! You can love, support, encourage, praise, reward, etc, but there is no "training" that can take place, other then to show the dog that you mean it no harm. All other training should still take place, ie; house breaking and/or crate training.
My Lab/Border Collie was a rescue. She was beaten with a hose for the first months of her life. I was even privy to seeing this when I went to pick her up. If I looked at her the wrong way she would pee. She was also not house broken, so I had to deal with two problems at once - house breaking, AND confidence boosting. Much to her delight (and the neighbors too I'm sure) jumping around like a loony toon when she peed outside seemed to be the ticket. I had to remember NOT to acknowledge the submissive peeing. Not even if it was to reassure her. I wanted the only reward she got for peeing to be when she went outside.. and it worked.
Getting the dog checked by a vet would be my fist suggestion. Decreased amounts of testosterone in male dogs can contribute to incontinence, and is characterized by these types of symptoms (peeing on themselves). This is usually seen with neutered dogs, but can also happen when there are problems with the adrenal gland (which is also responsible for the body secreting testosterone). Sometimes all it is is nutrition and the dog needs the adrenal gland stimulated, or sometimes it's a tumor. This is the main cause in male dogs and one that should not be over looked.
But he doesn't pee in his crate?.. this isn't necessarily and indication that submissive peeing is the problem. In female dogs it would be more likely because the lack of urinary sphincter control is most noticeable when the dog is at rest, which means you would see them peeing in their crate. With male dogs, however, IF (big if) there is a problem with the adrenal gland, that will be characterized by their lack of control during waking hours... so you may never see "wet spots" like you would with females.
This is what has me skeptical that it is submissive urination. I'm not saying it isn't possible, or that it's not contributing, but a lack of control like that is more indicative of a medical problem.
Also, with puppies, gas can contribute to lack of bladder control. A gassy belly can put pressure on the bladder, and when they change positions it just comes out. I'm experiencing a similar problem with one of my female JRT's. A strict dietary schedule and special treats has helped with the problem. As well as making sure she gets plenty of opportunities to poop.
But if it is submissive peeing, the only thing you can do is, not do anything at all!! You can love, support, encourage, praise, reward, etc, but there is no "training" that can take place, other then to show the dog that you mean it no harm. All other training should still take place, ie; house breaking and/or crate training.
My Lab/Border Collie was a rescue. She was beaten with a hose for the first months of her life. I was even privy to seeing this when I went to pick her up.
If I looked at her the wrong way she would pee. She was also not house broken, so I had to deal with two problems at once - house breaking, AND confidence boosting. Much to her delight (and the neighbors too I'm sure) jumping around like a loony toon when she peed outside seemed to be the ticket. I had to remember NOT to acknowledge the submissive peeing. Not even if it was to reassure her. I wanted the only reward she got for peeing to be when she went outside.. and it worked.Awesome post, Rhino. There is a bunch of info there I didn't know about. Like how gas can contribute and all sorts of things. Thanks man.
Can you (anyone) give me some good tips on confidence boosting? Doberluv suggested 'Tug-of-war' but I can't get him to play with me like that yet (he's just too timid still - I'm sure soon enough he'll open up though)..
There is a bunch of info there I didn't know about. Like how gas can contribute and all sorts of things. Thanks man.Can you (anyone) give me some good tips on confidence boosting? Doberluv suggested 'Tug-of-war' but I can't get him to play with me like that yet (he's just too timid still - I'm sure soon enough he'll open up though)..
I would not recommend tug-o-war, unless you are also teaching "drop it" at the same time. Tug-o-war is a game you always want to win.. even with a submissive dog. By all means, use this *to* teach drop it, but that is an important part of this game..
Just as a side note, trading is a good way to teach drop it. For example, if you're playing tug and want to stop, then don't simply let the pup take the toy, offer it something else instead, while saying "drop it". You want teach them that giving something up will get them something equally as good in return, and that there is no need to guard resources. Resource guarding is something that can happen in submissive dogs. They may develope the need to guard something particularly good, especially if they've been in a situation where they never got anything good, or there were other dogs or people always taking it away.
So... when you play tug, always incorporate the "drop it" part and never let the dog win. I don't suggest that be used as a confidence booster (letting the dog win that is).
The only thing you can really do is just treat the dog normally. Don't acknowledge submissive behavior. If the dog pees, ignore it. Take it outside and give it the opportunity to go there. If it doesn't go, return it to its crate and repeat the process until it does go. If the dog rolls onto its back and shows its belly, ignore the dog. DO NOT pet them on the belly. Just walk away. If you ask something of them and they cower, just ignore it and try something else that you know they CAN do. For example, if you're teaching something and you see the dog getting frustrated and showing signs of submitting (ears back, cowering, staying low the ground, etc), quickly change the task to something that you know the dog will succeed at.. like a simple sit. Once the dog sits, reward like a crazy person and get the dog all excited. After that confidence booster, try the new task again.
You really have to just ignore the submissive behavior and find ways to help the dog succeed. Reward EVERYTHING.. ignore the bad.
Just as a side note, trading is a good way to teach drop it. For example, if you're playing tug and want to stop, then don't simply let the pup take the toy, offer it something else instead, while saying "drop it". You want teach them that giving something up will get them something equally as good in return, and that there is no need to guard resources. Resource guarding is something that can happen in submissive dogs. They may develope the need to guard something particularly good, especially if they've been in a situation where they never got anything good, or there were other dogs or people always taking it away.
So... when you play tug, always incorporate the "drop it" part and never let the dog win. I don't suggest that be used as a confidence booster (letting the dog win that is).
The only thing you can really do is just treat the dog normally. Don't acknowledge submissive behavior. If the dog pees, ignore it. Take it outside and give it the opportunity to go there. If it doesn't go, return it to its crate and repeat the process until it does go. If the dog rolls onto its back and shows its belly, ignore the dog. DO NOT pet them on the belly. Just walk away. If you ask something of them and they cower, just ignore it and try something else that you know they CAN do. For example, if you're teaching something and you see the dog getting frustrated and showing signs of submitting (ears back, cowering, staying low the ground, etc), quickly change the task to something that you know the dog will succeed at.. like a simple sit. Once the dog sits, reward like a crazy person and get the dog all excited. After that confidence booster, try the new task again.
You really have to just ignore the submissive behavior and find ways to help the dog succeed. Reward EVERYTHING.. ignore the bad.
Thanks Rhino.
Actually he had "drop it" down in no time.
Sorry but I have to disagree - I think letting him play tug-of-war and win sometimes is okay because he still knows to give me his toy on command (because he sees it as 'my' toy, not his).
Thanks for the tip about the belly rub. I have been making this mistake apparently.. I keep forgetting what we make think soothes the dog actually encourages the behavior we don't want!
Actually he had "drop it" down in no time.
Sorry but I have to disagree - I think letting him play tug-of-war and win sometimes is okay because he still knows to give me his toy on command (because he sees it as 'my' toy, not his).
Thanks for the tip about the belly rub. I have been making this mistake apparently.. I keep forgetting what we make think soothes the dog actually encourages the behavior we don't want!
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RobHedrick said:
Thanks for the tip about the belly rub. I have been making this mistake apparently.. I keep forgetting what we make think soothes the dog actually encourages the behavior we don't want!
I also taught Kali to go on her back on command for her belly rubs. Now she looks at me and wags her tail, as is she's asking for a belly rub, and all I have to do is say "oh OK" and over she goes.
Tug of war is a game that will tend to build confidence. If you are not having leadership issues or guarding issues with your dog, there should be no problem at all. Your dog knows "drop it" or "give" and that's a perfect interactive game to show him that when he trusts you to give you something, you'll give it back. You can trade him a toy for a treat and make a game out of it. Tug of war is a game and dogs love playing it with eachother as well. If your pup is too timid now to play that, it's obvious he isn't trying to challenge you. Just let him play when he's ready and don't push too hard.
I play tug with my Doberman and he's no fun at all. He won't pull very hard. LOL. He's trying to let me win and I'm trying to let him win and it's a no win situation. LOL.
I play tug with my Doberman and he's no fun at all. He won't pull very hard. LOL. He's trying to let me win and I'm trying to let him win and it's a no win situation. LOL.
Rhino said:
Sometimes it's really hard not to want to sooth them, because it can perpetuate the behavior. When Kali would submissive pee, she would INSTANTLY feel guilty and cower, even though she was never punished for it by me (though I have no doubt that her previous owners did!). I found that once I just ignored it all together, it became less and less of an issue, and when she did do it, she didn't hide in a corner for 10 minutes after wards.
I also taught Kali to go on her back on command for her belly rubs. Now she looks at me and wags her tail, as is she's asking for a belly rub, and all I have to do is say "oh OK" and over she goes.
I also taught Kali to go on her back on command for her belly rubs. Now she looks at me and wags her tail, as is she's asking for a belly rub, and all I have to do is say "oh OK" and over she goes.
Haha On the contrary I used to have a Rotty / Dobie mix when I was younger, and it was impossible for me to play tug-of-war with him because he was so huge; he wouldn't ever give me his toy. Now that I'm older I'm not so sure if he was pure brute strength or I was so little LOL. Ahh I miss him..
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Rob, how are you approaching the crate when you go to let him out and he pees? If you are standing up and leaning over the crate, that is an aggressive stance to the dog and could contribute to the problem. Squat down and get on his level as you approach the crate, that might help some.
I don't see any problem letting the dog win on tug as long as they understand it's your toy and not theirs. I let my GSD win all the time. I think it builds confidence in him. I praise him when he's gripping the tug hard and is trying to pull me. I even lift him off the ground and spin around while he holds it. When he's tugging the way I want him to, I let him have it and, he'll shake it around in a little victory dance. Then I can tell him to "leave it" or "aus", and he drops it and lets me take it back. Then I make him sit or down, then release him so he can grab it again. I do it this way because we may do Schutzhund at some point and they need to have confident tug skills if they are going to do any bitework. Since I know I can have him release reliably, I have no concern over him feeling dominant over me, because he is not. I'm sure people will disagree with this approach, but for the skills he might need later, this is a basic drive building technique.
I don't see any problem letting the dog win on tug as long as they understand it's your toy and not theirs. I let my GSD win all the time. I think it builds confidence in him. I praise him when he's gripping the tug hard and is trying to pull me. I even lift him off the ground and spin around while he holds it. When he's tugging the way I want him to, I let him have it and, he'll shake it around in a little victory dance. Then I can tell him to "leave it" or "aus", and he drops it and lets me take it back. Then I make him sit or down, then release him so he can grab it again. I do it this way because we may do Schutzhund at some point and they need to have confident tug skills if they are going to do any bitework. Since I know I can have him release reliably, I have no concern over him feeling dominant over me, because he is not. I'm sure people will disagree with this approach, but for the skills he might need later, this is a basic drive building technique.
Most trainers would not disagree with this appoach. From what I've experienced, read about and what I've learned from other trainers and just.... in general, what you say is completely true. Drive and confidence in a dog is a good thing. Leadership issues are not born from playing tug of war with your dog. There would have to be a whole lot going on besides something like that. Tug of war is a game. We see it as a game and the vast majority, if not all dogs see it as a game.
I took my puppy to the vet this morning...
The doc told me Ozzy (my 18 month old Black Lab puppy) has a broken rib, and possibly a fractured or dislocated leg (from whatever attacked him). He's still at the vet now (getting x-rays and things). The office visit was only $20 but he needs rabies / de-worm prevention shots, and of course the x-ray's are all more; let alone what it may cost if his leg is broken (the doc says they may have to implant a steel rod in his leg if it's broken) - he said when I come back this after noon he'll "give me an estimate" ...
He's been at the vet for 30 minutes, and I miss him already...
I'm so depressed. I have no idea how I'm going to pay for this. I'm really not depressed about the money; I just want to know he's going to be able to get the help he needs, and the uncertainty of his future depresses me. I don't think I'll be able to come up with the cash right now. I hope my parents can help, but money's tight with them too (and Christmas is around the corner).
I was really hoping I would have a job by now, but things work out that way for a reason, or so I'm told.. Wish us luck, pray, whatever you prefer to do, because we need the prayers, and the luck.. Or a good job if you have one to offer...
... ~Rob H.
The doc told me Ozzy (my 18 month old Black Lab puppy) has a broken rib, and possibly a fractured or dislocated leg (from whatever attacked him). He's still at the vet now (getting x-rays and things). The office visit was only $20 but he needs rabies / de-worm prevention shots, and of course the x-ray's are all more; let alone what it may cost if his leg is broken (the doc says they may have to implant a steel rod in his leg if it's broken) - he said when I come back this after noon he'll "give me an estimate" ...
He's been at the vet for 30 minutes, and I miss him already...
I'm so depressed. I have no idea how I'm going to pay for this. I'm really not depressed about the money; I just want to know he's going to be able to get the help he needs, and the uncertainty of his future depresses me. I don't think I'll be able to come up with the cash right now. I hope my parents can help, but money's tight with them too (and Christmas is around the corner).
I was really hoping I would have a job by now, but things work out that way for a reason, or so I'm told.. Wish us luck, pray, whatever you prefer to do, because we need the prayers, and the luck.. Or a good job if you have one to offer...
... ~Rob H.
I sure missed something about your dog. I'm so sorry he is so hurt. What happened? The vet will fix him up and he'll be OK, I'm sure. But I know how expensive it can be. Jose had surgery on his patella and it was $500.00 and he may need it again. It doesn't seem to be holding too well. Then there's the other leg that might need it one day. It's incredible. Poor Ozzie. Give him a hug from us when you can.
Most vets will let you pay something every month and you can find somewhere else to cut back, hopefully. I wish you the best in finding a job. Is there anything you can do with computers? You seem to know a lot about them.
Well...let us know how Ozzie does and how you do too. Sending my thoughts your way.
Most vets will let you pay something every month and you can find somewhere else to cut back, hopefully. I wish you the best in finding a job. Is there anything you can do with computers? You seem to know a lot about them.
Well...let us know how Ozzie does and how you do too. Sending my thoughts your way.
I'm sorry about the news on your pup.
We had an emergency vet bill earlier this year that was 700 (plus). We were able to pay cash, but there were several payment options available had we not have been able to pay for it all at once. A lot of vet offices are now offering financing options through medical finance companies. If you have decent credit that is one option. If not, most vets are more then willing to do a payment plan based on good faith. They're just happy that the dog is a priority, and if necessary care is needed then that is their priority.
And with Christmas, I'm sure they'll be understanding if you explain your situation.
I'm glad he'll be ok, though!!
We had an emergency vet bill earlier this year that was 700 (plus). We were able to pay cash, but there were several payment options available had we not have been able to pay for it all at once. A lot of vet offices are now offering financing options through medical finance companies. If you have decent credit that is one option. If not, most vets are more then willing to do a payment plan based on good faith. They're just happy that the dog is a priority, and if necessary care is needed then that is their priority.
And with Christmas, I'm sure they'll be understanding if you explain your situation.
I'm glad he'll be ok, though!!
I have not even read the reponses... first off, your pup is 18 months old... What was the "abuse" he/she suffered. That's a "first off."
Second,....this could also be the first...Have you had him/her check for any medical issues? That is always the first thing to me.
If done above..then seek a trainer for a couple of sessions. Black labs are great, you just may need a bit of "advice." It's hard to come here, be sincere, and tell it through your eyes. All of us can give our 2 cents, but unless a pro. can see the trigger, give you insight and instuctions...we are not there and can't train your dog, please seek a trainer. It will benefit you and your newly aquired pet.
Second,....this could also be the first...Have you had him/her check for any medical issues? That is always the first thing to me.
If done above..then seek a trainer for a couple of sessions. Black labs are great, you just may need a bit of "advice." It's hard to come here, be sincere, and tell it through your eyes. All of us can give our 2 cents, but unless a pro. can see the trigger, give you insight and instuctions...we are not there and can't train your dog, please seek a trainer. It will benefit you and your newly aquired pet.
Update:
Ozzy had 3 x-ray's today - turns out he doesn't have a broken rib, but he has a break in his leg, above his knee. The doc says he'll need a splint put on his leg..
The vet was a lot less expensive than what I thought it'd be.. The total today including the x-ray's was about $130 and I'll need another $65 tomorrow for the leg splint.. Hopefully I can convince my dad to wire me the money or something. If not, I'll have no choice but to write a post-dated check.. Either way he has to get a splint to get his leg to heal. Poor guy still wants to play all day, he doesn't hardly know he has a broken leg.. Sadly the vet said he has to be on bed-rest, and no playing for awhile until he heals.
I'm not as depressed now, knowing that the vet bill will be paid (eventually); now I just have to worry about the $65 extra so Oz can get a splint put on..
Wish us luck that the money fairy Dad will come to the rescue (ugh I hate asking for money)..
... ~Rob
Ozzy had 3 x-ray's today - turns out he doesn't have a broken rib, but he has a break in his leg, above his knee. The doc says he'll need a splint put on his leg..
The vet was a lot less expensive than what I thought it'd be.. The total today including the x-ray's was about $130 and I'll need another $65 tomorrow for the leg splint.. Hopefully I can convince my dad to wire me the money or something. If not, I'll have no choice but to write a post-dated check.. Either way he has to get a splint to get his leg to heal. Poor guy still wants to play all day, he doesn't hardly know he has a broken leg.. Sadly the vet said he has to be on bed-rest, and no playing for awhile until he heals.
I'm not as depressed now, knowing that the vet bill will be paid (eventually); now I just have to worry about the $65 extra so Oz can get a splint put on..
Wish us luck that the money fairy Dad will come to the rescue (ugh I hate asking for money)..
... ~Rob