I Do Not..

[*blackrose]

I'm not opposed to using a crate, and I will always have a crate on hand, but Chloe was never crate trained. We just gated her off in the laundry room an then later extended her area to the laundry room/back hallway when we were gone, or we'd kennel her outside. She is 110% reliable in the house and we now just leave her loose whenever we are gone. At night when she was a pup I gated her off in the little walkway area by my bed and now she has full run of my room at night.

The way we use crates in house training is if the puppy can't be watched, the puppy is crated. In Chloe's case, gating her off in the back hallway worked just as well and she was much more content having more space (but it was still limited enough for her kennel instinct to kick in and her not want to soil it).

If I had a dog that wasn't reliable, I'd definitally crate it. Or ex-pen it, or contain it safely in some manner.

*And, every single dog I have, and have had, was calm while in a crate. Chloe does bark at first, but that is when she is crated and there are no people around. She shuts up after awhile and we found that when I take her to the groomers, if we put her in a front kennel where she can still see people she is quiet.

And I don't use a clicker when I train...but I do use a verbal marker. I've tried using a clicker and I end up just saying "Yes!" anyways, often more on time than me clicking because I have to fumble for the clicker. ROFL So my marks went something like "Ye-" *click* "-s!" Old habits die hard, and Chloe does just fine with a "yes" marker. I can think of a few situations were a clicker would be a bit more handy, so I may use it then, but I definitally am not apt enough with it to use it all of the time. I also lure/reward and give collar corrections...but often in tandem with marking.

 

[PixieSticksandTricks]

Not quite sure the point of the post, because it's a common knowledge that Chazzers are mostly of the opinions that crates and clickers are both valuable tools,.

I honestly NEVER picked this up on chaz. I have been here a long time and didn't realize so many people clicker trained. Same could go for Malory.

 

[AllieMackie]

I honestly NEVER picked this up on chaz. I have been here a long time and didn't realize so many people clicker trained. Same could go for Malory.

Fair enough. I see both being encouraged a lot, but I don't ever see them as the be-all-end-all.

For me, I clicker train soemtimes when teaching new behaviours. I don't NEED to, but I personally see it as a useful tool. Finn picks up behaviours faster with the clicker, and I enjoy teaching him parlor tricks and such on rainy days. Do I need a clicker? Heck no. He'd learn fine without it (and he does - I don't always use it) but it's handy.

Crates aren't for every dog. Not every dog needs them. Finn does, and he is out of the crate whenever I am home. He enjoys quiet time in his crate, and when I need him away for a little while, it's no big deal to tell him to "go to bed" for some control. He'll also be doing dog sports, so it's important to me that he's very comfortable in his crate. But again, not every dog needs them.

 

[JessLough]

So while some of you who say you don't "clicker train" probably do "marker train"

The question was about clicker training. Not about marker training. They are both different, IMO. Some dogs are fine with clickers, some need to hear their person verbally letting them know they did the right thing.

 

[Doberluv]

I have mentioned it in a couple places, and things get switched onto how I must not be a very good owner/trainer and I must start both.

I'd be curious who said something like that and where it was said.

Those things are tools that a lot of people find helpful. They're tools that weren't always around. Do you think people here think all dog owners in the past couldn't train their dogs and weren't good dog owners?

 

[Linds]

The question was about clicker training. Not about marker training. They are both different, IMO. Some dogs are fine with clickers, some need to hear their person verbally letting them know they did the right thing.

Well, I didn't really think there was a direct question about clickers, just everyone kinda talking about them, but ok.

I am curious why you think marker training and clicker training are that different? Different tool, same concept in my head. And I do have a dog that I can't use a clicker with, she HATES them and gets very distressed when one is used with her so I use a voice marker with her instead

Assuming that the clicker is being used in the same capacity as it's being discussed in this thread then the way I have it in my head is that a marker isn't always a clicker but a clicker is almost always a marker.

But anyways, here's the real problem with clicker training your dogs-

YouTube - Calypso Clicking

You get a parrot that loves the sound and messes with the dogs head

 

[Doberluv]

ROFLOL!!!! Linds, that parrot is amazing. I can see how that could definitely mess with a dog's head and make the clicker lose it's value. Too funny!!!!

Yeah, using a clicker, a whistle, a word, a clap....it doesn't matter. When one consistent thing happens, something that has no inherent value in itself, right before something very valuable happens, that association is made. The clicker (or whatever) then comes to have value. I liken it to a paycheck. A paycheck is nothing more than a piece of paper with ink on it....nothing valuable about that. But it represents the stuff you need to live on...groceries, a roof over your head. When you get your paycheck, you say, "Woooo hoooo!" LOL. The pay check is the conditioned reinforcer. The stuff you buy is the primary reinforcer for the work you did all week.

I too suspect that people are using some kind of marker most of the time and just don't realize it. But if it's not consistent or not the same thing, the dog likely won't make a very good association. He might. He might know that "Yes" and "good" and "woo hoo" all mean a treat is coming. LOL. It's just more concise to use the same thing. Plus, the sharp, distinct sound of the clicker is suppose to register quicker in the brain than words, talking etc.

 

[AllieMackie]

I am curious why you think marker training and clicker training are that different? Different tool, same concept in my head. And I do have a dog that I can't use a clicker with, she HATES them and gets very distressed when one is used with her so I use a voice marker with her instead

That's pretty much it. For some people it's also easier to hit a clicker then verbally mark at the right time, or they prefer the consistent sound that the click makes as opposed to variances in their own voice due to tone, emotion etc. Neither is wrong, both are very effective (I sometimes use clicker, sometimes voice, both work very well) but they are simply different variations on the same concept.

Some dogs don't like the clicker noise, and some on the other side of the spectrum respond better to a constant click sound than a voice reinforcer. Just depends.

 

[Linds]

ROFLOL!!!! Linds, that parrot is amazing. I can see how that could definitely mess with a dog's head and make the clicker lose it's value. Too funny!!!!

I think it really did in the beginning. He picked it up when I brought Kaylee home and taught her to sit using the clicker in the living room and for a while every time he would click she would look for food :rofl1:

Luckily, by now it's become the Bird Clicker and the Food Clicker. Calypso does it whenever he wants attention or when you feed or change his water, or he just wants to hear it himself. In fact, he's doing it right now, makes me laugh every time and it's a whole lot more pleasant than their normal screech

He might know that "Yes" and "good" and "woo hoo" all mean a treat is coming. LOL. It's just more concise to use the same thing. Plus, the sharp, distinct sound of the clicker is suppose to register quicker in the brain than words, talking etc.

Exactly, I loaded both the click and "Yes" for Traveler because I know there are going to be a good amount of times I don't have a clicker on me and need to mark something. But, I say yes a whole lot during the day for different things and while it's not as distinct as the "Yes!" you did the right thing, it's still being said with no reward then to back it up.

But that click, it can be heard over other sounds, its harder to click when you don't mean it, and it's not something you run into everyday unless you live at my house with the clicker parrot. So while Yes works for us I have found that the clicker is much clearer and we communicate easier with it.

As I said before, whatever works for you and your dog, I was just pointing out that it's all marker training, the tool that's used is just different

 

[PixieSticksandTricks]

I am curious why you think marker training and clicker training are that different? Different tool, same concept in my head. And I do have a dog that I can't use a clicker with, she HATES them and gets very distressed when one is used with her so I use a voice marker with her instead


You get a parrot that loves the sound and messes with the dogs head

The way I see it. This is how they are different.

Clicker training- you have to keep this stupid plastic thing with you at almost all times (or atleast in the begining). Sorry but I don't want to depend on something I can easily lose and then im up crap creek with a dog who only responds or responds well to a clicker. No thank you.

Vocal marks- well it is your voice. Your always going to have it unless you get a nasty cold or become mute. But I know even when I can barely squeak out commands my dogs understand and follow them. And the chances of me becoming mute are slim to none.

I feel much better knowing that I don't need to depend on a clicker to get my dogs to listen to obedience commands, show off tricks, or work on training in general.

I also don't have to spend money on some little peice of plastic and metal (that makes a god awful sound in my opinion) that I know I would definately continue to lose and continue to have to buy. Yes I know they are cheap but hey im saving money no matter how small an amount.

 

[JennSLK]

I PERSONALY belive that every dog should be somewhat crate trained. Meaning if I time comes in thier life that they need to be in a crate they whont stress out. That being said, its a personal beleif and I whont look down on anyone for not agreeing with me. Its your dog, not mine

As for clicker training. Well I've never used it. Dont think I will. It is a valubale tool to some, and unless your force training your dog or your dog is a 4 legged demon child I could care less.

 

[Laurelin]

I don't believe clickers won't work on some dogs. Clickers are nothing but classical conditioning and operant/classical conditioning is how every organism with a brain learns, whether they like it or not. LOL. You don't really have to prime it per say, but if a click is followed by something really good, consistently, regularly, frequently....that click becomes a secondary reinforcer. (or punisher) It can't NOT become a secondary reinforcer. It's how the brain works in every mammal. Something else was missing in the mix. I don't know what, but something.

I agree with this for the most part except in cases where the dog is afraid of the clicker noise. Rose startles every time I click pretty badly and thus the clicker is not that effective with her. So I simply mark her behavior with a 'good' instead. But the principal of classical conditioning, which is what a clicker is, should work on every dog. It's one of the basics you learn in psychology class. It works on every kind of mammal.

 

[Toller_08]

Sometimes I clicker train, sometimes I don't. Depending on the behaviour I want out of my dog, sometimes it's more efficient for me to use a clicker (like for Dance's Agility contacts), and sometimes it's just not. I have a lot of fun with the clicker, but I find it can also get in the way and it's easier just to mark a behaviour with a "yes!" in certain situations. I don't frown upon anyone who doesn't clicker train -- I didn't use a clicker until about 4 years ago myself, and still had well trained dogs who learned just as easily as my current dogs do.

I do believe all dogs should be crate trained. Like others, I don't care if you use a crate at home or not... if you want to let your dogs have free reign in the house, go ahead. But they should absolutely know what a crate is and know that it's ok to be confined to one sometimes. There are just so many potential situations in a dog's life that would require they're crated/confined to a certain space. Be it a vet clinic, the groomer, a boarding kennel, etc. I love the concept of crates and will never not crate train my dogs. That doesn't mean I fault those who don't crate they're dogs when they're away from home, but I personally am not comfortable with that until my dogs reach a certain point. I also like knowing where my dogs are during the day. What if there was an emergency? It's relatively easy for a fire department to find three crated dogs... but it's definitely not easy for them to find three scared, loose dogs.

 

[Doberluv]

That's what I meant Laur. Some people muffle a clicker too or use a ball point pen clicky thing. Or now they make clickers with variable volume control. But yeah....the concept...using something to precede the primary reinforcer becomes a valuable association.

And what might be happening in some cases, where someone doesn't think the clicker is making a connection is that maybe they aren't recognizing that their dog has made the association. Maybe their timing is off. Maybe the dog is zoning out or distracted and not aware of his behavior. Who knows? And it's true. If it's too much fuss to use one, which it is sometimes for me too, just as long as they know what they're being rewarded for and the reward comes quickly, they're still going to learn. It just isn't quite as precise as using a specific, regular marking or identifying signal.

 

[RD]

Eh, so you don't clicker train. I don't either unless I'm teaching a very specific, detailed trick or beginning to shape a brand new, completely unnatural behavior. Otherwise I use a vocal marker. Essentially, though, with or without the clicker, I train using the "clicker" method.

I think crating is important. I'm not going to judge anyone who chooses not to crate their dogs, but having a dog that is well-adjusted enough to sit in a crate for a while without putting up an ungodly fuss is a really nice thing. Not to mention the people whose job it is to care for your dog (vets, groomers, boarders etc) and how much easier their jobs become if your dog is well-mannered within a cage.

 

[Laurelin]

I too suspect that people are using some kind of marker most of the time and just don't realize it. But if it's not consistent or not the same thing, the dog likely won't make a very good association. He might. He might know that "Yes" and "good" and "woo hoo" all mean a treat is coming. LOL. It's just more concise to use the same thing. Plus, the sharp, distinct sound of the clicker is suppose to register quicker in the brain than words, talking etc.

This is why I like a clicker over other markers. I find that a consistent response to let them know they're doing it right is much more effective than something that varies. I have a habit of saying 'yes', 'good', 'yay', etc when they get something right. Plus changes in tone/etc.... A click makes things easier in that aspect. It's short and distinct. Less chance the dog is confused about what you're saying. I can train the dogs without a clicker too, so it's not like you're always totally relying on a clicker. But the clicker speeds up the process. Just because you used a clicker doesn't also mean your dog can't operate without it.

The clicker isn't going to make the dog want to work or not. It's just there for communication purposes. My dogs will work just fine with or without a clicker present. The value of the clicker is really mostly when you are teaching a new behavior.

Then again I'm kind of a crazy with 3 or 4 clickers around the house, one in my purse, and one in my car.

 

[Doberluv]

Well said Laurelin! I have the same feelings about it. I've given a bunch of mine away but have a couple left. They're pretty fun. The dogs get very excited when I take mine off the hook it's hanging on in the kitchen.

 

[RD]

The clicker is the perfect marker... but I know what it's like to have a dog that startles and then sulks at the sharp, loud noise. I could muffle it, but then I walk around with a big towel in my hand. I could use a ballpoint pen, but there are people around me who click ballpoint pens habitually, over and over.

Ripley hated the clicker, he'd get startled by it and then he'd just shut down and pout until I stopped the session. He wouldn't eat food if the clicker was present, he'd be getting a reward and he'd stop eating if I presented the clicker... It just got to the point where training him to accept the clicker was a more daunting task than training him using another, less consistent marker.

 

[Beanie]

I am curious why you think marker training and clicker training are that different? Different tool, same concept in my head.

According to many people, clicker training is not at all the same as marker training, regardless if the marker is "yes" or a click. Clicker training is a philosophy, a training lifestyle, whatever you want to call it. It's training without any kind of correction - and I'm not talking "no leash jerking," I'm talking not even a "uh-uh" or "no" or "try again." If the dog doesn't do what you want, so what? You don't reward but you also don't prompt the dog that what they've just done is wrong.


That aside, yes, a clicker is essentially a marker and it's the same concept of operant conditioning - but the benefit of a clicker is that it sounds the same every single time you click it (theoretically anyway... my clicker does on occasion make a different sound but generally it is the same) and pressing the clicker to deliver a CLICK is often a lot faster than delivery of the words we use to reward, so the clicker is regarded as being more precise. This all depends on the user of course, but user error doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the training method. So the difference in the tool can actually make the conditioning more effective... though I personally do not agree that is always the case.

So basically clicker training involves the use of a tool that is highly precise when used correctly and NO use of corrections. That is what makes it different than marker training. That said, when most people talk about clicker training, what they mean is marker training with a clicker... not the whole above "philosophy" of clicker training.



I had an issue with clicker training Auggie for a LONG time because his brains would fall out whenever he saw a treat in my hand... and he could NOT get it through his stupid head that the clicker was NOT a treat. So I'd be standing there with the clicker in my hand and he thinks it's a treat and he instantly became a total idiot and it was difficult to get him to do anything, let alone learn. It was frustrating for me and if it's frustrating, I'm definitely not enjoying working with my dog, so why do it? Finally once I adapted the zen approach to free shaping - that is, I just sat there, completely quiet, not even looking at the dog, waiting for him to offer me a behaviour that I could mark - that took the frustration element out of it for me... and now Auggie knows that the clicker is NOT a treat. He does know that it signals time to work and play with behaviours, but it's not the same OMG OMG OMG IS THAT A TREAT OMG OMG WHAT SHOULD I DO OMG LOOK AT ME frantic, idiotic reaction he used to have, and THANK GOD for that.
So yes, LOL, I do think that clicker training works on all dogs, but there can be challenges that have to be overcome. That doesn't mean it doesn't work (though I probably used the phrase "clicker training doesn't work with Auggie" before when what I really meant was "my dog is an idiot and I want to strangle him") but just that there's a challenge. Challenges can be fun, LOL.

 

[Laurelin]

The clicker is the perfect marker... but I know what it's like to have a dog that startles and then sulks at the sharp, loud noise. I could muffle it, but then I walk around with a big towel in my hand. I could use a ballpoint pen, but there are people around me who click ballpoint pens habitually, over and over.

Ripley hated the clicker, he'd get startled by it and then he'd just shut down and pout until I stopped the session. He wouldn't eat food if the clicker was present, he'd be getting a reward and he'd stop eating if I presented the clicker... It just got to the point where training him to accept the clicker was a more daunting task than training him using another, less consistent marker.

That's exactly how Rose is and why I don't use a clicker on her too. I only tried to use it once and saw that the clicker was scaring her. She'd do what she spent the whole time being nervous waiting for the scary click noise. No need to use a clicker in a situation like that. But every dog should learn to understand the concept of marking.

For the record I use 'uh uh' as a 'try again' signal a lot. To me clicker training = marker training. Only the marker is a click.