Hypothetical Breeding Question
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Would like to believe that, but I am quite sure I saw another post where she mentioned having a couple of intact females at one point in time. Would be workable for her to say these things if she wasn't making huge blanket statements about both people who do not have any real rights to be breeding their dog AND conscientous show owners and breeders.
W
Quote from a previous post of her's, and as you can see the epitome of responsible as you can see.:yikes: BTW her dog was a lab doberman mix to begin with that they couldn't say no to some people driving by to breed to her dog.
and all this about her not being "paranoid" and yall have too much to worry about etc, well consider the source. to her getting a dog pregnant doesn't even matter, the more the merrier I guess.
Honestly-
A month or so out of an entire year for my bitch to be "miserable," is livable. I would GLADLY switch heat cycles with her, LOL.
I just think you've got to live in some kind of a fairy world if you think that you can make the life of ANY being completely stress-free. It's impossible to do. We do not live in a perfect world, so we must act accordingly. Chul, maybe you think this is "paranoid" but I just see it as "responsible."
I'd much rather have my girl be indoors under close supervision (she's an indoor dog anyway...so I don't think she feels anymore "imprisoned" than she would for every other day of her life), and closely monitored outside- than be constantly worried that an intact male could get to her.
What is so inconvenient about a few trips on leash outside anyway? For people who keep dogs in apartments this is an everyday REALITY. And as far as I'm concerned, ANY time I spend with my dog is time well-spent. I wouldn't have bought a dog if I felt it was an inconvenience to take her outside on leash (yes, even in my own backyard).
For those of us with small breeds our vigilance takes on a TRULY important factor- the very LIFE of our bitch depends on it. A significantly larger stud that mates a Shiba bitch may produce puppies too big for her, ultimately ending in the death of both the bitch AND puppies. That's not something I'm EVER comfortable risking.
Simple fact of the matter- people with intact dogs of EITHER sex should either be prepared to be hyper-vigilant, or they should spay or neuter their dogs. It's part of our responsibility, ESPECIALLY when there are so many homeless dogs languishing in shelters.
A month or so out of an entire year for my bitch to be "miserable," is livable. I would GLADLY switch heat cycles with her, LOL.
I just think you've got to live in some kind of a fairy world if you think that you can make the life of ANY being completely stress-free. It's impossible to do. We do not live in a perfect world, so we must act accordingly. Chul, maybe you think this is "paranoid" but I just see it as "responsible."
I'd much rather have my girl be indoors under close supervision (she's an indoor dog anyway...so I don't think she feels anymore "imprisoned" than she would for every other day of her life), and closely monitored outside- than be constantly worried that an intact male could get to her.
What is so inconvenient about a few trips on leash outside anyway? For people who keep dogs in apartments this is an everyday REALITY. And as far as I'm concerned, ANY time I spend with my dog is time well-spent. I wouldn't have bought a dog if I felt it was an inconvenience to take her outside on leash (yes, even in my own backyard).
For those of us with small breeds our vigilance takes on a TRULY important factor- the very LIFE of our bitch depends on it. A significantly larger stud that mates a Shiba bitch may produce puppies too big for her, ultimately ending in the death of both the bitch AND puppies. That's not something I'm EVER comfortable risking.
Simple fact of the matter- people with intact dogs of EITHER sex should either be prepared to be hyper-vigilant, or they should spay or neuter their dogs. It's part of our responsibility, ESPECIALLY when there are so many homeless dogs languishing in shelters.
Well once a dog is loose technically they are guilty.
If the mix is going to be issue with health and temp like mixing a flock guardian with a herding dog I would abort and pay for it + spay.
If not help find homes and go for half the costs.
When a female is in heat they can smell it miles away .
My stallion got out and found poney mares down the road ....
So all animals are the same when it comes to breeding makes it real hard with intact dogs living so close coming into season.
If the mix is going to be issue with health and temp like mixing a flock guardian with a herding dog I would abort and pay for it + spay.
If not help find homes and go for half the costs.
When a female is in heat they can smell it miles away .
My stallion got out and found poney mares down the road ....
So all animals are the same when it comes to breeding makes it real hard with intact dogs living so close coming into season.
Again and again Muggie'sMum, (now I am directing it towards you) because i had'nt before. We both keep repeating ourselves, I know what your going to say about what I have to say next and you know what I am going to say about what you have to say next. When are you going to realize that "i've made it loud and clear" and that I am not going to change what I think?! Stop running in circles and wasting your time one me, please, because that is what you are doing. Your not fazing me one bit? You are the one starting to show some of your immaturity as well, get over it.
And "my world" as some of you call it, with my dogs happens to be stress free. I'm sorry that you all have such stressful lives, but I assure you that mine is great. They go to the vet for check ups as they are supposed to, my dogs are some of the few healthy well cared for dogs in my town, they are the only ones in my neighborhood that are on heartworm and flea/tick preventatives and they are happy. My other males have never made a fuss about getting out to mate with a female, even though the neighbors down the street have 4 females that are not spayed. We've never had problems in the going on 22 years that I have been alive, again sorry, but the way we take care of them and keep them confined is working great for us. Have to admit it is nice knowing that I am fortunate after hearing such stressful expiriences that you all have.
I've been reading and thinking and have changed my mind. I would say the owners of the dog and bitch share the guilt 50/50 . . . Although I think it would be more accurate to say they are each 100% guilty of letting their intact animal get out of control.
I do agree with some of adoptashelterpettoday's points. It does take two to tango; yes, an unsupervised bitch could be impregnated by any intact dog, but the point is if it is YOUR dog, that makes it YOUR fault. If it's Joe's dog, then it's Joe's fault, etc.
It's also the fault of the bitch's owner for leaving her in a vulnerable situation. But just because the owner of the bitch is at fault doesn't mean the owner of the male isn't at fault too.
It's completely natural for an unneutered dog to try to get to a bitch in heat . . . That's why it's so important that the owners of unneutered males be responsible enough to contain and control them effectively at all times. (Aside from the risk of them impregnating a female, they could also get STDs . . . or simply be hit by a car as they race towards the bitch's yard.)
Paying for an emergency abortion (and ideally a spay, if the bitch isn't a quality show dog) sounds like a very fair solution, or helping the puppies find good homes, if the owner of the bitch doesn't want to abort. (Some people are touchy about such things.)
I do agree with some of adoptashelterpettoday's points. It does take two to tango; yes, an unsupervised bitch could be impregnated by any intact dog, but the point is if it is YOUR dog, that makes it YOUR fault. If it's Joe's dog, then it's Joe's fault, etc.
It's also the fault of the bitch's owner for leaving her in a vulnerable situation. But just because the owner of the bitch is at fault doesn't mean the owner of the male isn't at fault too.
It's completely natural for an unneutered dog to try to get to a bitch in heat . . . That's why it's so important that the owners of unneutered males be responsible enough to contain and control them effectively at all times. (Aside from the risk of them impregnating a female, they could also get STDs . . . or simply be hit by a car as they race towards the bitch's yard.)
Paying for an emergency abortion (and ideally a spay, if the bitch isn't a quality show dog) sounds like a very fair solution, or helping the puppies find good homes, if the owner of the bitch doesn't want to abort. (Some people are touchy about such things.)
Why aren't you just answering my questions, Chul? If you actually answered straight the questions and concerns that people bring up instead of dancing around them and grandstanding about how "this is your opinion, like it or lump it", and how you're not going to sugar coat it, maybe I would quit addressing you altogether. I'm sorry if you think it's immature that I'm looking for answers to my questions.
You seem to take great pleasure in the fact that you think you're upsetting me. Believe me, I only allow people I respect to truly offend me. Maybe I did get a little out of hand on the slaughter thread, but that was insulting my family, not so much myself.
How about people who "really" love animals definitely should have all of their mutts speutered??
You seem to take great pleasure in the fact that you think you're upsetting me. Believe me, I only allow people I respect to truly offend me. Maybe I did get a little out of hand on the slaughter thread, but that was insulting my family, not so much myself.
How about people who "really" love animals definitely should have all of their mutts speutered??
No, no, no. You didn't understand what I was saying.
Stress is a natural and NORMAL part of ANY creature's development. Too much of course, is bad, but too little, is ALSO a very bad thing. Dealing with stressful situations is a learning experience- and one that keeps us safe. An animal (and this includes humans) that lives in a TOTALLY stress free environment, and then encounters the "real world," is unequipped to survive. They can't deal. They make poor choice because they've never HAD to make choices (making a choice is a stressor, btw
).
Little molly-coddled dogs are a perfect example. Have you ever noticed how the little Chihuahuas and Poms that people carry everywhere, the ones that have their every whim catered to, are often the MOST obnoxious, LEAST well-behaved pets? They're also the least stable. Put these dogs on the ground and they literally don't have a CLUE what to do with themselves. They're default is biting.
If you SOCIALIZE your dogs with other dogs- you stress them. They must interact with another animal, read it's intentions, decide if it is a "friend" or a "foe," and diffuse potentially aggressive encounters, etc. etc. The adrenaline is pumping in your dog at these moments. And you WANT that adrenaline to be pumping. It's completely healthy.
Puppies encounter stress from the day they are born. When mom leaves the whelping box to pee- those puppies are stressed. When she comes back in THEY crawl to her. They source out her body heat. And when they find her- it is a self-rewarding experience.
You see, living creatures are experiencing and learning how to cope with stressful situations from DAY ONE.
I guarantee you your dogs do NOT live in a PERFECTLY stress-free environment. Every once in awhile, they encounter some slightly stressful situation (ex: they get their nails clipped, perhaps they have to take a pill they don't like, they get socialized at a dog park, etc. etc.)
Did you know that until very recently, animals in zoos were dying EARLIER due to a LACK of stress? Quite literally, they were dying of boredom. Animals NEED stress in order to develop healthily. A zoo on the East Coast in fact, made a fake lion for one of their primate exhibits that would intermittantly come out, roar, and terrify the monkeys.
Result? Calmer, more confident animals. Less neurotic. Animals with a longer life span.
When I talk about stress I am NOT talking about the kind of stress that I feel when I have 4 tests in a week , haven't slept in 48 hours, and have 2 weeks to finish my thesis. That is unreasonable stress. I am talking about normal, everyday REASONABLE stress.
Stress is a natural and NORMAL part of ANY creature's development. Too much of course, is bad, but too little, is ALSO a very bad thing. Dealing with stressful situations is a learning experience- and one that keeps us safe. An animal (and this includes humans) that lives in a TOTALLY stress free environment, and then encounters the "real world," is unequipped to survive. They can't deal. They make poor choice because they've never HAD to make choices (making a choice is a stressor, btw
). Little molly-coddled dogs are a perfect example. Have you ever noticed how the little Chihuahuas and Poms that people carry everywhere, the ones that have their every whim catered to, are often the MOST obnoxious, LEAST well-behaved pets? They're also the least stable. Put these dogs on the ground and they literally don't have a CLUE what to do with themselves. They're default is biting.
If you SOCIALIZE your dogs with other dogs- you stress them. They must interact with another animal, read it's intentions, decide if it is a "friend" or a "foe," and diffuse potentially aggressive encounters, etc. etc. The adrenaline is pumping in your dog at these moments. And you WANT that adrenaline to be pumping. It's completely healthy.
Puppies encounter stress from the day they are born. When mom leaves the whelping box to pee- those puppies are stressed. When she comes back in THEY crawl to her. They source out her body heat. And when they find her- it is a self-rewarding experience.
You see, living creatures are experiencing and learning how to cope with stressful situations from DAY ONE.
I guarantee you your dogs do NOT live in a PERFECTLY stress-free environment. Every once in awhile, they encounter some slightly stressful situation (ex: they get their nails clipped, perhaps they have to take a pill they don't like, they get socialized at a dog park, etc. etc.)
Did you know that until very recently, animals in zoos were dying EARLIER due to a LACK of stress? Quite literally, they were dying of boredom. Animals NEED stress in order to develop healthily. A zoo on the East Coast in fact, made a fake lion for one of their primate exhibits that would intermittantly come out, roar, and terrify the monkeys.
Result? Calmer, more confident animals. Less neurotic. Animals with a longer life span.
When I talk about stress I am NOT talking about the kind of stress that I feel when I have 4 tests in a week , haven't slept in 48 hours, and have 2 weeks to finish my thesis. That is unreasonable stress. I am talking about normal, everyday REASONABLE stress.
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Whoa there...
Stressful lives? I have an intact bitch and I assure you, my life with her is not stressful (nor is her life). She only goes outside on a leash when she is in season, she is not allowed to be in a yard, even fenced, unsupervised while she is in season. Not even for ONE minute. She is an indoor dog and the only times she is EVER outside (in season or not) is when I am with her. If you think that is miserable or paranoid, I'm sorry for you.I'd rather be with her outside than to worry about anything - her jumping the fence,poisonings, theft, etc.....
And I assure you that my dog is also healthy and well cared for, on preventatives, eats a wonderful diet consisting of premium food as well as home cooked food, follows a natural and holistic lifestyle as much as possible, is trained and socialized, sleeps in the bed with me, goes to work with me, and all the other things that would signify a wonderful life.....
Please don't make assumptions you have no legitimate basis for.
Stressful lives? I have an intact bitch and I assure you, my life with her is not stressful (nor is her life). She only goes outside on a leash when she is in season, she is not allowed to be in a yard, even fenced, unsupervised while she is in season. Not even for ONE minute. She is an indoor dog and the only times she is EVER outside (in season or not) is when I am with her. If you think that is miserable or paranoid, I'm sorry for you.I'd rather be with her outside than to worry about anything - her jumping the fence,poisonings, theft, etc.....
And I assure you that my dog is also healthy and well cared for, on preventatives, eats a wonderful diet consisting of premium food as well as home cooked food, follows a natural and holistic lifestyle as much as possible, is trained and socialized, sleeps in the bed with me, goes to work with me, and all the other things that would signify a wonderful life.....
Please don't make assumptions you have no legitimate basis for.
R
So perhaps we should post big signs in our yards each time we have a bitch in season so everyone within blocks is aware of it and can keep a special eye on t heir dogs?
Pish Tosh.
I feel thatno owner of a male dog that climbs a fence and breeds a bitch is responsible for ANYTHING except breaking a leash law.
Bitches in heat should be WATCHED.
Period.
(PS...I only have bitches)
Pish Tosh.
I feel thatno owner of a male dog that climbs a fence and breeds a bitch is responsible for ANYTHING except breaking a leash law.
Bitches in heat should be WATCHED.
Period.
(PS...I only have bitches)
When I first read the thread, my first reaction was the loose intact male.
Then I thought about my two speutered dogs, and their outside activity. Being n/s they are not left outside alone. I'm paranoid that Roxy will jump the fence or Hades will get into some kind of trouble.
So I can only imagine how cautious a responsible owner should be with an intact female.
Of course the intact male's owner is at fault. But ultimately, if your bitch has an "unwanted" pregnancy, it's your own fault.
Tempura- The stress issue... THat's really interesting, are there any links to any of those articles? I'd like to have a gander at them.
Then I thought about my two speutered dogs, and their outside activity. Being n/s they are not left outside alone. I'm paranoid that Roxy will jump the fence or Hades will get into some kind of trouble.
So I can only imagine how cautious a responsible owner should be with an intact female.
Of course the intact male's owner is at fault. But ultimately, if your bitch has an "unwanted" pregnancy, it's your own fault.
Tempura- The stress issue... THat's really interesting, are there any links to any of those articles? I'd like to have a gander at them.
I think that it is a 50/50 situation... and like someone else said, both parties are 100% responsible for not watching their intact dogs. I would never leave a bitch in heat outside, unattended... that is just asking for trouble. A male can smell a bitch in heat for a mile... I've even read somewhere up to 5 miles. A male will do anything to get to a bitch in season, and so will the bitch. Not only can a male jump a fence to get to a bitch, two dogs can breed through fences/crates/wires, so even a kennel in the middle of a yard isn't safe.
I think that the owner of the male should offer to pay for half of an emergency spay/abortion, but if the owners of the bitch want to keep the puppies, then that is their own responsibility.
I think that the owner of the male should offer to pay for half of an emergency spay/abortion, but if the owners of the bitch want to keep the puppies, then that is their own responsibility.
R
Yes, but the fact is, the male is not the one getting in whelp.
I would NEVER DARE to try to hold someone responsible for my bitch getting bred if I'm irresponsible enough to leave her outside.
And you can bet NONE of my bitches will EVER be bred accidentally by someone else's dog, because there shall be NO opportunity for it.
I would NEVER DARE to try to hold someone responsible for my bitch getting bred if I'm irresponsible enough to leave her outside.
And you can bet NONE of my bitches will EVER be bred accidentally by someone else's dog, because there shall be NO opportunity for it.
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Hmmm.. I guess we can't come to an agreement. None of the employees at work could either, thats why I asked here. I wasn't sure what to tell the woman. I told her that as far as I knew, the males owner had not broken any laws, except the leash law. She might be able to take him to small claims court for expenses, but that was about it. I failed to ask if her female was in a fenced yard or loose.
I read the one about the zoo animals in a book actually- I have so many behavior books lying around atm, that I'm not sure which one it is, but let me have a look and I'll get back to you on it.
My first best guess is "Sailing With Noah: Stories from the World of Zoos" by Jeffrey P. Bonner (the President of the St. Louis Zoo), but I could be wrong. Either way it's a GREAT read.
My first best guess is "Sailing With Noah: Stories from the World of Zoos" by Jeffrey P. Bonner (the President of the St. Louis Zoo), but I could be wrong. Either way it's a GREAT read.
Wow, its amazing how you all get so upset so quickly. And muggiesmum, your just starting to annoy me, frankly it all is. You want eveyone to live thier lives like you do, i'm sorry but no. Sorry to everyone for making you upset, i'm just really getting sick of all this arguing crud. Sigh... opinions are taking so horribly on this site, you all are just not the kind of people for me. Thanx for sharing opinions but no thanx for bashing some. Hmmm... well, again sorry all, and bye to all, this is crazy I know my dogs are happy and thats all I need. I feel bad that most of you have your dogs live robotic lives. Take care to all. I'm going to celebrate my 22nd birthday in a good mood without annoyances.