Hypothetical Breeding Question
- Thread starter StillandSilent
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However, the owner of the male dog sure did make his presence demanding a pup from the litter.
I have to side with the, if the male dog jumped the fence, the male dog's owners should be liable for the spay. As everyone has said the MALE jumped the fence. Although anyone with an unsterilized mutt or a poor quality dog needs a good talking to. JMO though
If the male jumped the fence, it's the owner of the male dog's responsibility to pay for the litter. Sure, the owner of the female should have been more careful when she was in heat, BUT the owner of the male should've been more careful too, realizing that at any given time his male might have smelled a female in heat. In other words, the owner of the female is obligated to be extra vigilant every six months, but the owner of the male is obligated to be extra careful every single day. Both owners failed in their obligations, BUT the male dog was the one trespassing on someone else's property.
W
sorry, but dogs don't recognize property or fences or anything when those instincts kick in, or in any scenerio really. If you own an intact male or female you're obligated to take responsibility. Now if you let your dog out, went and opened a door to someon else's home, and let a bitch in heat out of her cage to breed then I'd say you're 100% responsible. however if you own an intact female and leave it anywhere it could be bred unsupervised, well you get what you asked for, especially knowing a dog would scale an 8 foot fence to do it. Supervise your dogs and none of this would happen. Owning intact males or females heightens the level of your responsibility, if you don't wan it, get them fixed.
I would say if they have an intact bitch they want to leave outside unsupervised when she's in heat, they need to take every precaution that their fence is suitable to keep any roaming males out.
Yeah, so this bitch was confined in their yard, but obviously not well enough. I would rather say why bother having a fence in the first place if it isn't suited to protect your dog the way it is supposed to?
Yeah, so this bitch was confined in their yard, but obviously not well enough. I would rather say why bother having a fence in the first place if it isn't suited to protect your dog the way it is supposed to?
Okay, I can't believe some of the replies. The bitch was not properly confined... it was the owner of the bitches fault for letting her run free? Why should anyone be forced to spay/nueter their dog. Show dog or not, a show dog is no better than a mutt, and I stand by that. Why in the world should it be the owner of the bitches fault if she was in her own yard?! High enough fence or not, we all know that some dogs can jump 6 ft fences and higher. The one at fault should be the males owner for not keeping them properly confined. I have two males, and have had another male as well, he was the reason we added a 10 ft fence, so I know that situation very well. It is our fault if they get out of OUR fence. If the female was in her own yard, her own home minding her buisiness it is no fault of hers or the owners. No one should be forced to spay or nueter their pets just because they are mutts. They are just forced to keep them in their yard and that is that, and they were doing just that. The owners of the male made the mistake.
So now the owners of dogs who escape their yards & trespass onto other people's yards are free of guilt b/c the owner of the other yard should be forced to be the responsible party?
What if my toddler son was crawling around in the backyard & the neighbor's dog jumped the fence & bit my son? Is it my fault too b/c my fence wasn't high enough to keep other dog's out? Should they only have to pay a portion of the medical bills b/c I should've had my son properly confined?
That line of thought just doesn't make any sense. When will people stop passing the blame around & just accept responsibility? If MY dogs get out of MY yard & go into someone else's yard & impregnanate something or attack something, it is MY fault. Plain & simple. Not the other people's b/c their "fence wasn't high enough to keep my dogs out."
What if my toddler son was crawling around in the backyard & the neighbor's dog jumped the fence & bit my son? Is it my fault too b/c my fence wasn't high enough to keep other dog's out? Should they only have to pay a portion of the medical bills b/c I should've had my son properly confined?
That line of thought just doesn't make any sense. When will people stop passing the blame around & just accept responsibility? If MY dogs get out of MY yard & go into someone else's yard & impregnanate something or attack something, it is MY fault. Plain & simple. Not the other people's b/c their "fence wasn't high enough to keep my dogs out."
R
Because the bitch in season is the responsibility of the person who owns her. She is NOT the responsibility of anyone else who might happen to own an intact male dog in her n'hood. As someone else said, a wise person does not EVER leave a bitch in season unsupervised outdoors. NOT EVER.
I have 6 ft tall excellent fencing with locked gates. I DO NOT TRUST ***ANY*** FENCING TO KEEP A BITCH IN SEASON. I DO NOT EVER leave a bitch in season out in my yard, NOT FOR 30 SECONDS.
If the person with the loose dog is liable, it would only be for the broken leash law.
A bitch in season is generally considered as an attractive nuisance. There are laws on almost every animal control book about how bitches in season must be confined.
If one is ignorant or careless enough to leave a bitch in full bloom season out unattended in a yard, I say they made their bed, they should lay in it.
JMNSHO....
I have 6 ft tall excellent fencing with locked gates. I DO NOT TRUST ***ANY*** FENCING TO KEEP A BITCH IN SEASON. I DO NOT EVER leave a bitch in season out in my yard, NOT FOR 30 SECONDS.
If the person with the loose dog is liable, it would only be for the broken leash law.
A bitch in season is generally considered as an attractive nuisance. There are laws on almost every animal control book about how bitches in season must be confined.
If one is ignorant or careless enough to leave a bitch in full bloom season out unattended in a yard, I say they made their bed, they should lay in it.
JMNSHO....
W
Well Red said it very well, but I'll say it again. The instinct of a dog to jump a fence and attack a toddler is nowhere near the same thing as what a bitch in heat will do to an intact male. Its expected that your bitch in heat will attract dogs, coyotes, etc to her from a long ways away. Its known that a males will climb fences, go under them, chew holes in garage doors, break thru windows to get at a female in season. Its instinct, its ingrained, it ain't changin. they don't recognize fences, they don't recognize personal property, they're dogs, its what dogs do.
I never said the other person was guilt free. I said by owning intact animals you have a higher repsonsibility. And knowing that some male dogs will climb 8 foot fences chew thru garage doors etc to get to a female in heat, I would never ever, ever in a million years leave a female in heat outside unsupervised EVER. My friend living in a suburb of chicago, has a female GSD in heat right now, and has had coyotes lining up outside to be her suitor, so its not just dogs you have to worry about.
I never said the other person was guilt free. I said by owning intact animals you have a higher repsonsibility. And knowing that some male dogs will climb 8 foot fences chew thru garage doors etc to get to a female in heat, I would never ever, ever in a million years leave a female in heat outside unsupervised EVER. My friend living in a suburb of chicago, has a female GSD in heat right now, and has had coyotes lining up outside to be her suitor, so its not just dogs you have to worry about.
seeing how I own intact females when they are in heat they are in the house and when we are gone to the store or whatever they are crated and in the house. Win win for me.
I have to agree with Whatz that any person who leaves an intact in heat female in a kennel run or fenced yard is asking for trouble. It is instincts we are fighting.
I would however pay for the spay or procedure and let it be an opportunity to teach.
If the female was a show dog then the owner should know better.
No ones saying someones pet is any better or any worse than a show/working dog. It is everyones right to keep thier dogs as they see fit. However they should be knowledgable enough to know the risks.
Who knows how many other males got over the fence or climed it? If that person wanted me to pay half of the expense I would want DNA done before I would even consider it.
Its a double edged sword. Yes I am wrong cause I failed to keep my dog contained. However the owner failed by not taking precautions knowing that in cycle females attract males from long distances. And the owner should know that males will do anyting to get to that female.
I know for me if I were the owner of the female I would take responsibility cause it was my fault I didnt take extra precautions and left my female out for other males to possibly get at. I would not expect the owner of the male to pay a thing. Who knows what other males got there first or after?
Guess its a bridge I hope to never cross.
I have to agree with Whatz that any person who leaves an intact in heat female in a kennel run or fenced yard is asking for trouble. It is instincts we are fighting.
I would however pay for the spay or procedure and let it be an opportunity to teach.
If the female was a show dog then the owner should know better.
No ones saying someones pet is any better or any worse than a show/working dog. It is everyones right to keep thier dogs as they see fit. However they should be knowledgable enough to know the risks.
Who knows how many other males got over the fence or climed it? If that person wanted me to pay half of the expense I would want DNA done before I would even consider it.
Its a double edged sword. Yes I am wrong cause I failed to keep my dog contained. However the owner failed by not taking precautions knowing that in cycle females attract males from long distances. And the owner should know that males will do anyting to get to that female.
I know for me if I were the owner of the female I would take responsibility cause it was my fault I didnt take extra precautions and left my female out for other males to possibly get at. I would not expect the owner of the male to pay a thing. Who knows what other males got there first or after?
Guess its a bridge I hope to never cross.
Wow... I'm glad I live where I live, you all must live in some weird parts that you all have to be that scared and paranoid all the time. Adding to the other thread about leaving them unattended in the yard, same thing, too much paranoia. We are happy here, no worries, and it's great. Sorry I believe differently you all, not trying to start anything at all, but people have different ways of doing things and believing things, everyone on here should be mature enough to know that.
Yup okies you're paranoid, and so is everyone else that owns a dog and cares about them. Look, if you have a bitch that is in heat, she should be able to feel comfortable in your home. That means you have her in your yard, make sure there is no way out or in. Thats that. Any dog coming into the yard, male or not, they are trespassing into your territory, that's what's wrong and illegal. How can no one see that? It's like saying, oh well my 14 year old was outside in my backyard minding their own buisiness, it was MY fault that I did'nt have a high security fence and sounding alarm when the intruder came.
It's both owners' faults in my opinion, but with more fault on the owner of the bitch in heat.
I understand when some of you say that people should be allowed to leave their intact female outside in a fence that keeps their female contained, etc -- "how can it be their fault if another dog jumps the fence?" I'm sorry, but this is the view of someone who wants to live in a perfect world. If you have an intact bitch, you have to realise that, while your dog may be perfectly behaved and stay in it's own yard, others may not. What if it was a stray dog that jumped your fence? Who do you have to blame then? Who will you be angry with? The male dog? No, it's your bitch, and it's your responsiblity to NOT ONLY make sure that you're keeping her in, but ALSO to make sure that you are keeping others out, and the only way to make sure you are doing this is to watch your female at ALL TIMES. If someone is naiive enough to own a bitch in heat and not understand that dogs will jump ten foot fences in order to get to her -- if someone is naiive enough to think that all owners of intact males keep their dogs perfectly confined -- IF the owner is naiive enough to think that there are no stray dogs in the world --- then I'm sorry, but this person did so little research and has so little commitment that they should not own a dog, period.
It's just like locking your toddler in a car and then someone steals your car. Yeah, the person shouln't have stole the car, but I'm sorry, you left your child in a vehicle. Yes, you locked the doors and had your child strapped in, so you protected your child from getting out -- but did you ever think that there was maybe a chance someone else could get IN? People are just as crafty as dogs when they know they want something -- and all dogs have to go on is instinct, which is more powerful than human's pure greed.
I don't care if either one of the dogs is a show quality, health certified, working titled, champion dog -- Dogs should not be left outside unnattended unless you KNOW that your dog can't get out, and someone else's dog can't get in. Occasionally I leave my dogs outside unnattended -- but I acknowledge the risks and I'm willing to take responsibility for anything that happens, and I NEVER leave my dog outside when she's in heat.
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Now, thinking of if it were me...
I have an intact female and an intact male.
If I left my female outside while she was in heat, and another dog jumped the fence and bred with her, it's my fault. I left her outside unnattended. I would talk to the owner, let them know that their dog can get out of it's yard, and let them know I'm displeased, but in the end it's my fault. By not paying attention to her I put her in the situation which allowed her to get pregnant. She's my dog, and my repsonsibility. I would abort. I don't care about the fertility risks involved --- I will not be responsible for bringing mixed breed puppies into this world.
If it were my male getting out --- legally, I would be at fault. But in my opinion, once again, while we'd both be at fault, the owner of the bitch was more at fault. If it weren't MY dog jumping the fence and getting her pregnant, it could be any dozens of other males, whether they are owned by someone or stray. So what difference does it make that is was my dog? It was bound to happen anyway! But yes, I should have been watching my dog -- I didn't know that my dog could jump the fence -- I didn't know that someone would let my dog out of the yard -- etc etc -- all things that I shouldn't even have to know, if I would have just watched my dog. I would offer to pay half of the abortion fee, if they refuse because they want puppies, I wouldn't have anything to do with them -- I wouldn't pay for anything. If they refuse because of religious beliefs, which is something that I certainly don't have but can understand, then I'd offer to pay half of any emergency procedures that may be required later on (c-section etc), and I'd offer to pay for half of the puppies' vet checks etc.
I understand when some of you say that people should be allowed to leave their intact female outside in a fence that keeps their female contained, etc -- "how can it be their fault if another dog jumps the fence?" I'm sorry, but this is the view of someone who wants to live in a perfect world. If you have an intact bitch, you have to realise that, while your dog may be perfectly behaved and stay in it's own yard, others may not. What if it was a stray dog that jumped your fence? Who do you have to blame then? Who will you be angry with? The male dog? No, it's your bitch, and it's your responsiblity to NOT ONLY make sure that you're keeping her in, but ALSO to make sure that you are keeping others out, and the only way to make sure you are doing this is to watch your female at ALL TIMES. If someone is naiive enough to own a bitch in heat and not understand that dogs will jump ten foot fences in order to get to her -- if someone is naiive enough to think that all owners of intact males keep their dogs perfectly confined -- IF the owner is naiive enough to think that there are no stray dogs in the world --- then I'm sorry, but this person did so little research and has so little commitment that they should not own a dog, period.
It's just like locking your toddler in a car and then someone steals your car. Yeah, the person shouln't have stole the car, but I'm sorry, you left your child in a vehicle. Yes, you locked the doors and had your child strapped in, so you protected your child from getting out -- but did you ever think that there was maybe a chance someone else could get IN? People are just as crafty as dogs when they know they want something -- and all dogs have to go on is instinct, which is more powerful than human's pure greed.
I don't care if either one of the dogs is a show quality, health certified, working titled, champion dog -- Dogs should not be left outside unnattended unless you KNOW that your dog can't get out, and someone else's dog can't get in. Occasionally I leave my dogs outside unnattended -- but I acknowledge the risks and I'm willing to take responsibility for anything that happens, and I NEVER leave my dog outside when she's in heat.
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Now, thinking of if it were me...
I have an intact female and an intact male.
If I left my female outside while she was in heat, and another dog jumped the fence and bred with her, it's my fault. I left her outside unnattended. I would talk to the owner, let them know that their dog can get out of it's yard, and let them know I'm displeased, but in the end it's my fault. By not paying attention to her I put her in the situation which allowed her to get pregnant. She's my dog, and my repsonsibility. I would abort. I don't care about the fertility risks involved --- I will not be responsible for bringing mixed breed puppies into this world.
If it were my male getting out --- legally, I would be at fault. But in my opinion, once again, while we'd both be at fault, the owner of the bitch was more at fault. If it weren't MY dog jumping the fence and getting her pregnant, it could be any dozens of other males, whether they are owned by someone or stray. So what difference does it make that is was my dog? It was bound to happen anyway! But yes, I should have been watching my dog -- I didn't know that my dog could jump the fence -- I didn't know that someone would let my dog out of the yard -- etc etc -- all things that I shouldn't even have to know, if I would have just watched my dog. I would offer to pay half of the abortion fee, if they refuse because they want puppies, I wouldn't have anything to do with them -- I wouldn't pay for anything. If they refuse because of religious beliefs, which is something that I certainly don't have but can understand, then I'd offer to pay half of any emergency procedures that may be required later on (c-section etc), and I'd offer to pay for half of the puppies' vet checks etc.
Well then it just goes to show that we live in totally different areas. I've had two bitches both in heat near the same time. Not once did they get pregnant, so my family and I obviously did our job of keeping OUR fence properly secured. Another point, you can not always have your eye on your dog 24/7, so you need to secure your area properly, those of you that have had this problem should find someone to build you a new fence and kennel.
I have a 6 ft cedar fence with a electric fence on the top and cement around the bottom so no one can dig in or out. I have locks on my gates in every area. Even with all that in place I dont keep my female outside while in heat.
Am I probably pretty safe..Sure. I dont want to take any chances though.
This should be the mindset of anyone who owns an intact female.
Its easier to prevent then it is to deal with the reprocussions. JMO
Am I probably pretty safe..Sure. I dont want to take any chances though.
This should be the mindset of anyone who owns an intact female.
Its easier to prevent then it is to deal with the reprocussions. JMO
No, now you are putting words into my mouth that I never said. I said it's the owner's responsibility to secure a dog properly if he wants to leave them outside unattended.
I hardly think the comparison is fair, since intact dogs aren't attracted to toddlers the way they are attracted to females in heat. It's in a male dog's nature to go looking for a bitch in heat he can smell from miles away.
Other than that, you wouldn't leave your toddler outside unattended either unless you knew he was secured safely, correct? Would you put him in an exercise pen he could climb out of or tip over?
The responsible thing would be to simply not leave a bitch in heat outside unattended, period.
I hardly think the comparison is fair, since intact dogs aren't attracted to toddlers the way they are attracted to females in heat. It's in a male dog's nature to go looking for a bitch in heat he can smell from miles away.
Other than that, you wouldn't leave your toddler outside unattended either unless you knew he was secured safely, correct? Would you put him in an exercise pen he could climb out of or tip over?
The responsible thing would be to simply not leave a bitch in heat outside unattended, period.
Have you ever seen a dog who cared about what's right or wrong, legal or illegal? They are animals and follow their instincts. Dogs aren't people and comparing the two makes absolutely no sense.
If you want to compare the situation to a human child being involved, think of owning a back yard with a pool. Are you going to leave a 3-year old outside unattended without any security precautions like a sturdy pool gate that the kid can't open or climb over? And if the kid does manage anyway, falls in the pool and drowns, whose fault is it going to be?
It's all about responsibility.
If you want to compare the situation to a human child being involved, think of owning a back yard with a pool. Are you going to leave a 3-year old outside unattended without any security precautions like a sturdy pool gate that the kid can't open or climb over? And if the kid does manage anyway, falls in the pool and drowns, whose fault is it going to be?
It's all about responsibility.
I would kick myself very hard in the shins for having my dog in a situation where he could get out. Then I'd check the local laws about having a female in heat in an "accessible" area. If the law fingered me, I'd offer to pay for a spay-abort for the bitch. If they declined, not sure. I'd probably say "sue me." But I'm sometimes tactless like that.