how would you like to be put in a crate??? please educate me

puppylover2007 · Oct 7, 2007

please allow me to address the states you have just made. if you will.
when you say that pups are "Pack dogs", let me ask you this then, way way way back when dogs ( ie coyotes) roamed the earth did they NOT live outside and fend for themselves? did they NOT run free and take care of one another? did they not LIVE outside? back then they did not have HUMAN houses to live in to feel protected. they simply had the elements of nature ( rain sleet hail and snow) to deal with EVERYDAY of their lives. they had to fight for food, they had to survive and, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but, they did it ALL without the help of humans. to survive outside is a natural instinct, the dog does NOT feel left out and feel that is has been rejected by the pack. not to be rude but that is FACT! society has made people think that dogs NEED to feel loved and kept indoors to feel like part of the family, i am sorry but my dogs have and always will feel like part of the family. and having indoor dogs weither they are pups or adult.

now to address the farm issue, you are making alot of assumptions here, so, let me clarify,

yes, i did live on a (HUGE) farm, my horses lived on a pasture ( big green area), and they had full run of the entire open range field. we let them run free and watched them for dangers and unsafe conditions, news flash horses were meant to be kept outside, again, society makes people think they need to have all these things to survive, do not get me wrong, we still took care of them, we had monthly vet check ups, my other animals also had their own areas for them to run romp and play. we only had one real fence and that was to help divide the property line between neighbors...

now, the third and final issue here, so,where you have chosen to live seems to be crowded, how do i put this gently and non offensive, and i guess you could say this comes from living in the country my whole life, but, i feel like i have to defend the fact that i beleive dogs/pups should have AMPLE running and playing space and be able to bark and be around others that love them, so, here it is, and i am sincerly sorry if i offend you but, seeing is how everyone here is deathly against outdoor dogs..

i for one feel that outdoor dogs are more loved and cherished then indoor ones by far, just because you live in the city and CHOSE to live in a townhome and you feel safe and secure you think that a dog does as well??? let me ask you this then, why are you so against outdoor dogs in general? you made a statement that you do not feel sorry for "working dogs" because they were brought up outside from the begining? ( is this based on fact or that is just what you beleive?) so, because they are working dogs they do not deserve to be inside? i do agree that some breeds ( small breeds chows, toy poodles etc), should not be outdoor dogs, however, breeds such as labs, collies and such should be outdoors because it is in their nature, they love to swim, run and play.. and being part of a pack is important to the well being of the dog yes, however, for them to live outside is not, by any means, a way of rejection, take for example my moms 3 dogs, they live outside and have since birth and they are the most lovable, sweet, play dogs in the world, granted my mom has the room to keep them outside, and that does play a part, but, to say that dogs should be 100% strictly indoor dogs, to me is just plain ignorant. I mean, seriously, how would you feel if the rolls were reversed ( humor me), how would you feel if you had to stay indoors 10-15 hours a day, with nothing to look at but walls? and then, once your owner left, you were put in a crate to boot for god knows how long, then to be let out to go potty? seriously this is food for thought..

Beleive it or not dogs can be taught NOT to chew on furniture and other human items, with simple training, to me, putting a dog in a crate other than for travel is just someone's way of saying " i do not have the time effort or ability to teach my dog to NOT chew on anything that is important". ( here is the website that says what i have stated http://perfectpaws.com/crt.html ) and that putting them in a crate is your way of dealing with it. in here is clearly states that crate training is for HOUSE breaking your dog PERIOD!!! it also goes on to say that you should only CRATE train your dog when you are HOME! so, for those of you who do crate when you are not home is totally wrong!!! it clearly states that in this article, feel free to read this and get an insight of what crate training is all about... maybe i am wrong, maybe the article is wrong, but, from what it says, i see no evidence that a dog should be crated for the reasons people state here:

1- when i take out the garbage
2- when the delivery man comes
3- when i need to go somewhere
4- when i am at work
i could go on and on and on... however, according to this ( as well as other articles), i do not see that any of the above reasons are for crate training..

having said that i will probably not be welcome here anymore, or at least looked down upon because i choose to raise my dogs outside, however that is the way i feel.. below is also part of a thread i started and feel that people should read it, it opened my mind and maybe will help others as to why i feel that dogs should( given the ability), be raised outdoors or both in and out.

thanks for taking the time to hear me out ( or cuss me out)...

even tho the link goes to bulldogs, it is also meant for all indoor/outdoor dogs..

http://www.homestead.com/bulldogsworld3/danger.html

Picklepaige · Oct 7, 2007

*sigh* some people just don't get it. Dogs want to be WHEREVER you are. If you're outside, they want to be outside. If you're inside, they want to be inside. You don't get that people with indoor dogs DO let their dogs go outside. They get to run and play and swim and frolic! How in the world are outdoor dogs more loved than indoor dogs!?

Toller_08 · Oct 7, 2007

Obviously, no matter what anybody tells you, you aren't going to accept our views and beliefs but....Dogs, way back when, lived outside WITH their pack. Their pack did not send them away after 8 months of living with them. They stayed together. You're saying that you're going to let your dog live inside for a few months, and then put him out for the rest of his life without you. That is not at all the same as how dogs work in the wild. If I were to put all of my dogs out today and never let them in again, they'd be devastated. They hate being outside alone for long. Of course they go outside and play and do whatever, but they certainly don't want to live out there. After more than about a half hour, they want back in to be with us. You cannot compare dogs of 100 hundred years ago or today's packs of wolves and coyotes, to today's domestic dogs. It's not at all the same. My dogs thrive on human companionship. Sure, they could probably live on their own if I made them, but they would not at all be happy.

As far as "training your dog not to chew" instead of putting them in a crate goes, my dogs know what they're allowed to chew on and play with and what they're not allowed to do so with. That doesn't mean that when I'm not home that they'll obey those rules. Especially puppies. Winston isn't crated during the day as I can trust him not to get a sudden burst of energy and destroy something and/or hurt himself. The other two might, and I just feel much safer with them crated. It's not at all cruel. As a matter of fact, Dance is in her crate right now by choice, chewing on her Kong. If she didn't like it, she wouldn't be in there.

Tankstar · Oct 7, 2007

puppylover2007 said:

First yes dogs were ONCE out door living animals with out human contact, but this was OVER 2000 years ago. That is well over 2000 years of human contact and domestication. to put a dog and a coyotes together is a false statment, as they are not the same any more. humans used to live outside in caves and small settlements, we survived didnt we. So why do we need computers, Tvs telephones,cars ect? Easy, domestication. we are all domesticated, as are dogs.

To say I chose where I live is just dumb. I dont not chose to live in a town home, if I had the funds to live out int he country here, I would in a heart beat, but as that is a unreality for me since I just simply do not have the amount of money it costs to buy a farm (atleats 600K plus and that is afor a few acres and a small house on it here) I just turned 22, I still live at home. At this age I wouldnt beable to affored it, plain and simple.

Yes dogs can be taught a amazing amount of tasks, of which chewing is not allowed. Like i said before I have not used a crate since my dog was a few months old, I do not even have a crate now, I hgave it away years ago to a friend when she got a 4 year old dog from the pound, who lived ont he streets for 2 years or so, so he needed a crate.

Dogs ARE pack animals plain and simple. My dog would be devasted if I left him outside to live by himself. And as we have rules in this city for barking, well he would not beable to live otu doors even if he and I both wanted that, he is a collie, he is a barker.

To say my dog is unloved becuase he lives in doors is just crazy. If I DIDNT love him I would banish him to outside, where I KNOW for a FACT he would be misrable. If I didnt love him I wouldnt deal with simple things as walking him every day, brushing out his coat and bathing and simply feeding him food. And take him to the vet, when right now espeacially i can not really affored it as I'm unemployed right now. But when he got his tail chopped off the other day I scrounged up the almost 300 doller bill for him.

Like I said he gets ATLEAST a 3 hour walk/hike/swim a day at the dog park. After that he is so tired out he falls asleep all day, not becuase he is now indoors. He passes out on the 5 min car ride home, and even sotimes falls asleep at the park if I take a break on a bench.

Yea farm dogs who are working deserve love and attention, but they are working dogs, and they know their pack is the goats or sheep, they sleep witht hem and live with them. Farmers take great care of them BECAUSE if they dont, then offcourse their flock of animals will mroe then likley be killed of by other animals if the dogs do not keep up and look after them.

Many people crate dogs for differnt reasons. Some dogs NEED to be crated, while others dont. To say no one showed crate is crazy. Some dogs need it, and to tell people that they are mean and dont love their dogs becuase they dont crate is rude.

Where does ANY of us say our dogs are only outside to use the washroom and then are back inside again? We have all said our dogs go out side, for walks ect. I take my dog to the dog park every day, we meet up with a large group of people at the same time, and there is 26 dogs we meet up with they all play and rough house for about a hour then we all go hiking. Just becuase he is not allowed to lvie outsde all day, no he is not allowed. He barks, and barks and barks, no matter how you try and stop him. We have gotten 3 tickets for 150 bucks each now becuase of the barking, if we get anouther one then he will have to b rehomed (as per animal control says) You live in the country, so i guess you dont get the city rules, but there is barking rules. And that is that. I have a 4 lane highway abut 40 feet from my house, I dont need my dog out and able to get hit. He gets tones of excersise both mind and body.
Wait until you kick out that puppy you have now, watch how much it will sit at the door and beg to be let in, and then tell us dogs are not pack animals who want to be with every one

Maxy24 · Oct 7, 2007

Dogs are dogs, not coyotes and they have physically changed drastically from their wild cousins. Many dogs do die from being in the elements because they are not built for it.

It is in their nature to live outside? I disagree, they have been living inside for years and years most breeders now days are breeding dogs that live inside so I do not think they have this incredible urge to spend their lives outside. I also feel you seem to believe dog that live inside can't "swim, run and play". An outside dog will not swim more than an inside dog unless you have a pool in your back yard that is left open to the dog, or a pond. I personally would not want my dog swimming in a pool unattended. An inside dog has plenty of opportunities to run and play both inside and outside they will probably play with their people more than an outside dog who has to play with himself.

Actually I think I easily spend 10 hours inside each day, I go outside to walk to and from the Bus stop and spend a little outside time when I'm home but other than that I'm in my house or at school. But being serious We still take inside dogs outside!! They go for walks, just to hang out and to go places with us.Once again I'm a human so me being in a crate is very different. Not all people should have puppies, people who will need to leave the dog in the crate for hours on end are one group of people who should get an adult who is house broken and does not chew.

and we do train our dogs to not chew furniture, but when you are not home and the dog is gnawing away at the couch all day it is difficult to train him that it is a bad thing.

Georgygirl · Oct 7, 2007

Bullsh!t, I grew up with an outdoor dog and I will never do that to a dog again. It's so easy to forget about a dog that's sitting outside compared to one that's staring you in the face. One winter my parents allowed us to bring our outside dog inside because she was so old we didn't think she'd make it throuh the winter outside. She LOVED it! When she was banished outside again in the spring it just broke my heart. She didn't understand why she couldn't follow us inside anymore. She sat by the door hoping to get let in. My parents got another dog when she died and that one is also an outside dog which is something we constantly argue about. I didn't love my outside dog any less than my inside dogs now, but she definitely didn't get the attention that my inside dogs do. And I'll always feel guilty about that. That's why my dogs will always be inside with me.

Tankstar · Oct 7, 2007

here is some links about outdoor dogs.
http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_BackyardDogs.php

http://www.spca.bc.ca/AnimalCare/dogcare.asp

http://www.calgaryhumane.ca/animal_behaviour_dog_outdoor.asp

Also to say they will get more excerisse. I worked at a horse barn for 3 years, I worked about 60 hours a week. And we had a farm dog there, he lived outside, and was only allowed in the covered porch at night. Sure he was wel taken care of, such as food, vet care, and grooming. But excersise wise. Where did that dog spend 95% of its time, in the barn at the front door laying and watching every one. he didnt run and play. Unless I or smeone else started it for him. Even going out to the field to check ont he horses, he didnt walk there, he would hitch a ride with me as I drove a off terrain vehicle out (no way was I walk 100 acres lol). My point is he didnt run around and play, he didnt go of int he woods (where the barn backed on to, which is litterally 1000's or 1000's of acres or woodland) to chase bunnies, or deer. He stuck around people. He was always at my side, at the front door of the barn, or on the passenger seat of the vehicle I drove. I bet you my indoor dog, who doesnt even have close to .25 of a acrre of land gets more excersise then that dog does.

ETA: My dog even used to come with me, and where was he the whole time aswell? Beside philip (the farm dog) sleeping, or watching me. he didnt go running any where around there either, as he wanted to stay by me at all times. And i would allow him to run off as he wouldnt go far, an I would always gat off the openings tot he woods and road if I brought him, so he was fenced in. With 100+ acres to explore, yet he stayed right beside me.

lilprairiemutt · Oct 7, 2007

If you are going to comapre dogs of today with the wild coyotes or wolves or wild dogs of a couple thousand years ago, then are you going to make your dog hunt for his food. This is what they would do naturaly and so obviously that is what would make them happiest right? Are you, after you have him hunt his own food,going to then make him fight for it? because again, this is what he would do naturally in a pack. But then, you are not going to provide him with a pack, not even a human one. Also, yes wild dogs (and wild horses) live out in the elements al lthe time. But not inthe same way fenced animals have to. A wild animal will seek natural shelters so that they can get out of the sleet and hail and rain, they don't just stand out int he middle of it and say "Well, I'm a wild animal so this must be comfortable for me." And there are plenty of wild animals that don't survive the cold of winter. So to say well, this is how they are in the wild, so this is how they should be here doesn't really work.

Also wild dogs don't get pet by people and they don't spend their first few months inside a human home. So why bother brining a pup inside to begin with at all?

Cheetah · Oct 7, 2007

puppylover2007 said:

I love the blanket statements you keep making about inside dogs being "unloved."

puppylover2007 said:

I'm sure this has been said many times before, but I'll repeat it - Most "inside" dogs are not kept inside 100% of the time. I have inside dogs, and they go everywhere with me, and they are outside with me any time I am outside. See? This is from Friday, when Eevee was OUTSIDE with me while we were traveling:

My dogs are OUTSIDE with me EVERY DAY, but they live INSIDE where I live because that's where they WANT to be.

puppylover2007 said:

You can't teach a dog not to chew on things when you're not around. Prevention by confinement is very vital to house training. When I AM around, I don't use a crate to train a puppy not to chew. I leash the puppy to me.

puppylover2007 said:

And that is one training website out of like 9846385796487, so it doesn't mean anything. There is no one superior method of training, and everyone will have slightly different opinions on crate training. That is only one opinion, and your opinion is merely another. Doesn't make it fact.

Tankstar said:

So true, and I've seen quite a few outside dogs who were totally fat lol...

Psyfalcon · Oct 7, 2007

Buster would gladly live out doors. He has the coat for it too. But, he is sitting on my couch right now.

That is if I was out there. Dogs are still "pack animals" to some degree. Very few do well alone. Also note, DOGS DID NOT COME FROM COYOTES! Coyotes are more or less solitary, wolves and dogs are not.

He slept ON me last night, for 10 hours. Even asleep, do you spend 10 hours with your outside dog?

How much time do we spend outdoors? 15 hours a week? (2 1 hours walks a day and then some other activities, hiking or traveling?) Not really that much but he does not seem to care. If I opened the door, he would sprint out, race around, and then put himself on the couch again.

puppylover2007 · Oct 7, 2007

well i tried and tried but everyone here seems to be all one sided and feels that outdoor dogs are mistreated and unloved and rejected... i wonder if anyone here really read the entire POST i just made, my pups is the type of pup who LOVES to be outside and would not have it any other way.. he loves to sleep outside and play and everything...so, that would make me a bad mother right?? forget the fact that he has a $500 goose down feather blanket he sleeps on, forget the fact he has TONS of toys and his own room to call his own, forget all that, because he is an outdoor dog i DO NOT CARE!!! you guys just do not get it.. what is really wrong with having outdoor dogs... is it society? or just people being igornant to outdoor dogs..

let me be clear, my pup was RAISED outside, he was BORN outside, he loves to be outside, he still feels like part of the family ( or pack as you say), and he is not neglected in anyway shape or form.. my point in all this was to find out why people crate and keep dogs inside..

and i must say i have learned alot, on 1 side you all want to be "leader of the pack" yet, you think that everyone who has an outdoor dog should be banned and hung out to dry per say, and not be allowed to have a dog, yet, in the same sentence they think that keeping their family pets in crates for about 8 hours a day.. or what not, is ok, forget that they are pack dogs and need human contact and that by putting them in a crate is a good thing..

but to each his own, you are all going to read the way you want, which is that anyone who sees otherwise crazy and out of their mind thinks that indoor dogs are more loved cherished and treated better....

when i used coyotes and back in the day, it was for argument sake... geesh, don't tell me you guys are taking that serious are you ??? i was using it for discussion purposes....

anyways, i need to go and take care of my poor neglected outdoor dog...

Georgygirl · Oct 7, 2007

Tankstar makes a very good point. My parent's outside dog has a huge yard filled with squirrels and rabbits, but she spends most of her time by the patio door waiting to see if anyone will come out.

ETA: Puppylover, I don't think you're an evil person and i don't doubt that you love your dog. But I won't agree with where you keep your dog just like I don't agree with my parents. I still love my parents and I know they love their dog, but we'll never agree on this subject.

Saintgirl · Oct 7, 2007

Seriously, food for thought- dogs are not coyotes or wolves. Dogs are domesticated animals NOT wild. Evolution changes animals as does domestication. To compare the living habits as the same would be comparing apples and oranges, both are a fruit but both are very different. Yes, they share a similar DNA make up, but so do we with primates and clearly there is a vast difference between the two species. Dogs are dogs and they need to be looked at as there own species, one that is domesticated.

I'm curious, do you think that because we have indoor dogs that we do not allow them with any outdoor time at all? We go on walks several times a day, they have an acre of fenced in yard that they can play in whenever they would like, providing I am home to let them outside. My dogs spend a good portion of their day outside---WITH ME!!!

Here's the part that I have a hard time understanding. Dogs want to be surrounded by those that love them, so mine are with me always indoors and out. I don't understand how this fits into your arguement about dogs prefering to be outdoors.

Of course dogs can be well trained. Crates are a wonderful training tool. I am sorry that you are missing out on the point behind this. DO you really believe that those of us who use a crate are too lazy to properly train our dogs? I am not going to turn this into a p!$$ing competition with you about whose dogs are better trained than the next person, but if you would search through some of the members here you will find some outstanding breeders, obedience competitors, agility competitors, those who have completed there CGC, etc, etc AND THEY ALL USE CRATES!!!

And I feel the exact opposite, so we will have to agree to disagree. Personally my dogs are part of my family, they couldn't be more loved and cherished. They all live in the house with me, like family should!

Now I will say that I understand working dogs living outside, because they have a job to do, and it is what they were bred to do. But pets belong in the home!!

Cheetah · Oct 7, 2007

puppylover2007 said:

Upon reading your very first post on this thread, the only point I saw was for you to angrily lash out at anyone who used a crate in their training. It was a very angry post against us, so how exactly do you expect all the regulars of this forum who use crates and who have perfectly behaved and happy dogs to react to that?

Just because you disagree with OUR methods of training and keeping dogs doesn't make you all-knowing and right. It just means you have your own opinion, which is fine, but you chose to come onto this forum and yell at all of us for using a perfectly acceptable method of training. If we started a thread screaming at you for keeping your dog outside, you'd be just as insulted and angry.

puppylover2007 · Oct 7, 2007

Psyfalcon said:

i stand corrected.. i did not mean to use coyotes as an example, it was a very bad one..

as for my pup, because i can stay home as my hubby is a long haul trucker, i spend anywhere from 10 to 15 hours thru out the day with him, like i said he loves to be outside, he loves to play in the yard, he will only on occasion come in when he wants to sleep on his blanket.

i do not understand why people on here are sooo against outdoor dogs??? why does everyone think that outdoor dogs can not be family dogs!?..

i do agree that some breeds should not be left outdoors ( poodles chows etc and the like) but why not dogs that are meant to be outside? or like to be outside? how do you know your dog LOVEs to be inside vs outside? i guess that is like the tomato vs tomatoe huh, a question like which came first the chicken or the egg ( of course i will probably get told i am wrong there too) and that you can not compare dogs to tomatoes??? oh well, i have just about had it with arguing and trying to prove that outdoor dogs have just as much danger and issues as indoor dogs, but, there is no sense in arguing with a wall..

Psyfalcon · Oct 7, 2007

.

If I am at work for 8 hours a day, what difference does it make where my dog is? Its not getting human (or dog) companionship if its outside, or if he is in a crate, or sleeping on my bed (as he normally does). Most people have to work, so using its unfair to be using alone time against the crate. People will be gone anyway.

Its the next 16 hours that really defines the relationship with the dog. Do you ignore the dog? Do you watch tv with it? Do you go hunting/hiking/whatever outside with it?

Herschel · Oct 7, 2007

puppylover2007 said:

Why are Poodles and Chows not suited to live outdoors?

Tankstar · Oct 7, 2007

Herschel said:

I agree. why are they exempt from it. poodles ARE a woking breed of dog, they are a hunting dog. A chow is one of the oldest breeds of dog, so it really goes back to the start of domestication, so why of all dog breeds would this one be exempt from living out doors?

Psyfalcon · Oct 7, 2007

We've stated at length, dangers do dogs left outside in the City, Suburbs and Country. There are also various laws about keeping dogs outside in some places.

If I did not live in an apartment I still would not. Very near where I am we have Mountain Lion and Bear. Additionally, there is a large enough population that someone might steal him, or a decent chance that a meth-head would try an poison him or sell him for drug money.

Some dogs do like to be outside, but they are relatively rare. The average back yard is just as boring as the average living room. If I had a sled team of 10 huskies, they might live outside, but then they would have their own "pack" when I was not around.

Many people also keep their dogs outside so they do not have to deal with training them. They typically ignore them as much as possible. This puts most people off outside dogs very quickly.

So, here is the real question. We've all explained why our dogs are inside and crated. What dog do you have that would rather live alone? How much time are you actually going to be there outside with it?

Cheetah · Oct 7, 2007

puppylover2007 said:

Because given a clear choice, my dogs will willingly come inside and be with me rather than stand outside without me. In fact, any time I put them out and shut the door, they will do nothing but stand at the door waiting for me to either come out with them or let them inside.

On that subject, my dogs love to be outside, if I am with them.

how would you like to be put in a crate??? please educate me

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