Housebreaking update

[RVM]

About 2 or 3 weeks ago we started over with Kirby's housebreaking (8 month old Peke A Poo). We went back to a positive training method to see if he would learn to go outside and not in the house. What we simply did was take him out almost every hour when we were home. We gave him a treat if he pottied outside and we didn't do a thing (other than clean) if he had an accident inside.

Well, when he's in the middle of pottying outside he starts to look at you for his treat. This is a good thing. There is, however, a bad side to this. Now that he knows he isn't going to be punished for going potty inside, he goes whenever and whereever he wants to. I've cleaned up more messes in the past 20 days than I have in the previous 2 months.

I talked to a friend who has been breeding dogs for about 25 years. He knows the dog, the situation and how I treat all of my pets. He is at a complete loss and doesn't know what else to try. My veterinarian did a full check up on the dog not too long ago and said he's perfectly healthy. She also knows this dog and how I treat/train my animals and she too doesn't know what else to try.

I am very frustrated and am ready to simply punt the little furball into a river or something. Can anyone help?

Thanks in advance to everyone who takes the time to read and/or reply to this!

 

[shepluvr]

why don't you crate him so he Can't mess in the house? you need to treat him like an 8 week old-if you can't watch him crate him.

 

[Mordy]

Your mistake is that you let accidents happen.

"Positive training" doesn't mean only praising the dog when he/she is doing something right, it also means eliminating chances to do wrong as much as you possibly can. It's not the dog's fault that you aren't making the rules clear enough.

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showpost.php?p=256932&postcount=4
http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showpost.php?p=49374&postcount=6

 

[border collie]

to me giving treats is not a good idea, unless your willing to even it out by teaching him right from wrong, tell him when he's bad praise him when he's good

 

[RVM]

Sorry for the lack of detail.

You can rest assured we don't *let* accidents happen. Hardwood flooring is too expensive to simply allow that.

He is crated when we aren't home. We clap and yell NO! if we catch him in the middle of pottying in the house.

The problem is, we can take him outside, wait 30 minutes while he does nothing, then, not 1 minute after we bring him in, he'll pee or poop on the floor. He refuses to hold it. Half the time, in his little crate thing, he'll just pee or poop and go to sleep in it.

When two professionals are telling me the dog is almost hopeless I have to wonder... this is a last resort for him, so to speak, and I'm hoping to find better advice (such as I received in the first thread) than smug statements.

 

[Saje]

Nobody is being smug.


This is not hopeless and any professional tells you it is isn't worth their weight in dog treats! All dogs are different. All owners are different. Factors vary.

If he doesn't pee after half an hour you can take him inside. Keep him on the leash. After 30 seconds - 1 minute take him right back out. That helps stimulate them to go. Especially if it's cold. the warm-cold-warm-cold.

For the crate. I'm not the best for advice since I don't crate train but is the crate the right size? If he comes from a situation where he is used to sleeping in his/near his waste (puppymill, backyard breeder, kennel, some shelters) the crate may not work for him. Or it may not work as well.

 

[border collie]

sorry i was just trying to help, have you tried tying him outside for an hour or two,or leaving him outside till he goes?

 

[Saje]

That would only make things worse BC. He needs to be supervised so he can learn that what he is doing is right. And leaving a dog tied outside can be very dangerous.

 

[border collie]

i didn't meen leaving him alone, when i take max outside to do his thing i set outside with him and read a book or just watch and wait depending on the circumstances

 

[RD]

Is there a reason that you refuse to use a crate to help with house training? It really is a valuable tool.. When you cannot supervise your puppy, you have to expect accidents ESPECIALLY if it is a small breed. Little dogs are a pain to house train to begin with, but if they are just left to run all over, they are going to turn the house into their toilet. This dog was not born knowing where to go to the bathroom, and you are making it more difficult by allowing him to make mistakes.

In all honesty, with your attitude, I'm not surprised the dog isn't house trained. When he has an accident, it is your fault for not getting him outside. NOT his fault because "he should know better". I'm beginning to wonder who is the truly hopeless one.

 

[BudgetsDad]

Is there a reason that you refuse to use a crate to help with house training? It really is a valuable tool.. When you cannot supervise your puppy, you have to expect accidents ESPECIALLY if it is a small breed. Little dogs are a pain to house train to begin with, but if they are just left to run all over, they are going to turn the house into their toilet. This dog was not born knowing where to go to the bathroom, and you are making it more difficult by allowing him to make mistakes.

In all honesty, with your attitude, I'm not surprised the dog isn't house trained. When he has an accident, it is your fault for not getting him outside. NOT his fault because "he should know better". I'm beginning to wonder who is the truly hopeless one.

She already said that he pees and poos in his crate, so its useless as a training tool.

 

[Mordy]

You can rest assured we don't *let* accidents happen.

If accidents happen, it's your fault. Sorry, I'm not trying to be mean here and none of my advice is meant to be conveyed in a snippy tone, but it's not the dog's fault. A puppy simply doesn't know better.

We clap and yell NO! if we catch him in the middle of pottying in the house.

Picking him up and speedily taking him to a spot where it is ok to pee/poop sends a clearer message. Don't waste time on telling him "no".

The problem is, we can take him outside, wait 30 minutes while he does nothing, then, not 1 minute after we bring him in, he'll pee or poop on the floor.

That's not the dog's fault - it's your fault for using a wrong strategy. Wasting 30 minutes while nothing happens that you could reinforce just doesn't make a lot of sense. If nothing happens within 5 minutes outside, go back inside and monitor the dog or crate if needed, then try again half an hour later.

He refuses to hold it. Half the time, in his little crate thing, he'll just pee or poop and go to sleep in it.

I very much doubt he consciously makes a decision to "not hold it". From what you mention here, I can tell that his entire life either nobody has shown him the rules clear enough as to what is okay and what isn't or he simply has not been given a chance to keep himself clean. If dogs soil where they sleep, it is because their natural cleanliness instinct has been overriden, which happens in most cases when a dog is raised in a puppy mill setting and then kept in a cage at a pet store, but other circumstances lead to the same thing.

When two professionals are telling me the dog is almost hopeless I have to wonder... this is a last resort for him, so to speak, and I'm hoping to find better advice (such as I received in the first thread) than smug statements.

Yeah, it is difficult to housetrain a dog who is already used to soiling where he sleeps, but I hope you see the flip side of the coin too, that you aren't sending a clear enough signal to the dog and maybe you'll consider doing some things a little differently.

In defense of the people you call "smug", it does get a little tiring when so many people come to this forum and repeatedly post how it's not their fault that their "stupid dog doesn't get it" and it can't possibly be them who is making the mistakes. Try to stay a little more openminded and if something doesn't work out, do it differently and see what the results are.

 

[RVM]

I do crate train and have said so. Maybe you should reread what was written?

Have I ever said he should simply "know better"? That's ridiculous - he's a dog.

I've housebroken many dogs with never a problem. This is the first time I haven't been able to housebreak a dog.

Is there a reason that you refuse to use a crate to help with house training? It really is a valuable tool.. When you cannot supervise your puppy, you have to expect accidents ESPECIALLY if it is a small breed. Little dogs are a pain to house train to begin with, but if they are just left to run all over, they are going to turn the house into their toilet. This dog was not born knowing where to go to the bathroom, and you are making it more difficult by allowing him to make mistakes.

In all honesty, with your attitude, I'm not surprised the dog isn't house trained. When he has an accident, it is your fault for not getting him outside. NOT his fault because "he should know better". I'm beginning to wonder who is the truly hopeless one.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

1) no loose time in the house except AFTER pottying

2) Leash the pup to your belt if you don't want to use the crate so often.

3) use baby gates to keep him in the room with you

4) combine your positive outdoor reinforcement with a VERBAL COMMAND for pottying. I use "go pee pee" and "go poop". This lets you ASK the dog to eliminate when you go outdoors so he understands what you are out there for.

5) teach the dog what OUTSIDE means by saying this each time you open the door to go out

6) each time you catch the puppy IN THE ACT of eliminating in your house, clap you hands loudly, say AH AH AH AH...OUTSIDE!!!!! and PICK HIM UP and rush him outside. Encourage him to finish there. If he does ANY elimination after you take him out, HUGELY praise and reward him.

7) Stop letting the dog see you clean up after him

8) increase the dog's daily exercise time outside the home. At least 30 minutes of leash walking daily.

9) make sure you are feeding and going outside on a good schedule. Sometimes it can help to keep a daily log of what happens when.

10) if you are finding puddles and piles after the fact, then it's time to take strong measures. The very next time you find a spot the dog left, take a firmly rolled up newspaper and hit yourself over the head briskly and firmly several times as you repeat: I FORGOT TO WATCH MY PUPPY.

 

[RVM]

I know it isn't his fault, and I'm not blaming him. What we do, specifically, if we catch him while he's in the act, is clap or make some noise, yell NO! and run and pick him up and put him outside.

He was kept in a little baby playpen and from what I can tell during his first four months of life, he was never shown not to pee or poop on himself. It's obvious why he doesn't have a problem eating/playing/laying/sleeping in his own waste. He's gotten a little better about it, but I'm still having to wash him at least twice a week because of it.

I never once called the dog stupid nor blamed it for anything. Please don't assume this just because others have come here and done so. I've tried every single training method I could find, literally. I've gone back to the one that I feel most comfortable with and the one that most professionals recommend. It's not working; indeed, it is making the problem worse. However, I'll keep at it. It's only been about 3 weeks since we restarted this route so he may be a bit confused.

I am trying to get in touch with a professional trainer who was recommended to me by my vet. Hopefully this will help.

If accidents happen, it's your fault. Sorry, I'm not trying to be mean here and none of my advice is meant to be conveyed in a snippy tone, but it's not the dog's fault. A puppy simply doesn't know better.



Picking him up and speedily taking him to a spot where it is ok to pee/poop sends a clearer message. Don't waste time on telling him "no".



That's not the dog's fault - it's your fault for using a wrong strategy. Wasting 30 minutes while nothing happens that you could reinforce just doesn't make a lot of sense. If nothing happens within 5 minutes outside, go back inside and monitor the dog or crate if needed, then try again half an hour later.



I very much doubt he consciously makes a decision to "not hold it". From what you mention here, I can tell that his entire life either nobody has shown him the rules clear enough as to what is okay and what isn't or he simply has not been given a chance to keep himself clean. If dogs soil where they sleep, it is because their natural cleanliness instinct has been overriden, which happens in most cases when a dog is raised in a puppy mill setting and then kept in a cage at a pet store, but other circumstances lead to the same thing.



Yeah, it is difficult to housetrain a dog who is already used to soiling where he sleeps, but I hope you see the flip side of the coin too, that you aren't sending a clear enough signal to the dog and maybe you'll consider doing some things a little differently.

In defense of the people you call "smug", it does get a little tiring when so many people come to this forum and repeatedly post how it's not their fault that their "stupid dog doesn't get it" and it can't possibly be them who is making the mistakes. Try to stay a little more openminded and if something doesn't work out, do it differently and see what the results are.

 

[RVM]

I have done or do all of that you mentioned. Most of the accidents we find are when we've been away from the house, and they're what he leaves in his little crate. When we're home, he is never in a different room than us, and he is always under supervision. Most of the messes he leaves are with us watching him. He gives no indication that he needs to go. For example, last night, we were playing with him (he had just peed outside maybe 25 minutes prior to this, and had had no water since) and while he was chasing a ball, he stopped, immediately peed and we grabbed him to take him out. Literally, he was in mid-stride when he stopped to pee. He didn't sniff, he didn't stop and look around or anything else. He was running, hit the brakes, peed, end of story. It was like a ghetto style, drive-by peeing out of nowhere. Now please explain how I could possibly watch the dog closer, or how I am supposed to be prescient and detect that he has to pee when there is no indication.

As I've said, two professionals have said that the dog is missing something. Both of these people, who know me and have known me for years, and also know how I train my animals, have confirmed my methods (including the negative training, which was actually recommended by both the vet and breeder as a last resort) as being used properly. That said, I feel that it is my responsibility to figure out how to get across to him not to potty in the house. I've tried everything that I know, that the vet knows and that the breeder/trainer knows (though admittedly he works exclusively with American Bulldogs). I'm here to hopefully find something "out of the box" (what was that about open mindedness?) that will allow this to click for him.

I'm asking for help, and a good part of the replies are negative with no constructive point to them whatsoever. Some of you that do try to help seem to throw in a snide remark (hit myself over the head for not watching him closer... what purpose does this serve, especially when you have no clue how close I am or am not watching him?). I don't really care what you people usually get here. You should learn that each person is different, each dog is different, and not everyone who asks for help is an idiot. Instead of just assuming random things that you believe are occurring, try asking instead.

With that said, to those who have helped and are trying to, especially those that have taken the time to PM me with some very helpful advice, thank you so much.

To anyone else who has been less than constructive or objective: seek first to understand, and then seek to be understood.

1) no loose time in the house except AFTER pottying

2) Leash the pup to your belt if you don't want to use the crate so often.

3) use baby gates to keep him in the room with you

4) combine your positive outdoor reinforcement with a VERBAL COMMAND for pottying. I use "go pee pee" and "go poop". This lets you ASK the dog to eliminate when you go outdoors so he understands what you are out there for.

5) teach the dog what OUTSIDE means by saying this each time you open the door to go out

6) each time you catch the puppy IN THE ACT of eliminating in your house, clap you hands loudly, say AH AH AH AH...OUTSIDE!!!!! and PICK HIM UP and rush him outside. Encourage him to finish there. If he does ANY elimination after you take him out, HUGELY praise and reward him.

7) Stop letting the dog see you clean up after him

8) increase the dog's daily exercise time outside the home. At least 30 minutes of leash walking daily.

9) make sure you are feeding and going outside on a good schedule. Sometimes it can help to keep a daily log of what happens when.

10) if you are finding puddles and piles after the fact, then it's time to take strong measures. The very next time you find a spot the dog left, take a firmly rolled up newspaper and hit yourself over the head briskly and firmly several times as you repeat: I FORGOT TO WATCH MY PUPPY.

 

[Doggish.Obsession]

Some of my stupid advice:

I just stumbled upon a book called

How to housebreak your dog in seven days

Maybe books can help....

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

I said IF......

IF you are finding puddles and piles AFTER THE FACT.

If you are NOT, then that would not apply to you, now would it?

One other thing that might be of help. If you are putting him out and not going with him, it would likely help if you do go out with him each and every time so as to reward him for eliminating out there, and put the elimination response on a cue (go pee pee, for example).

I would say that if he is beginning to anticipate his reward for pottying outside, you are on the right track. Keep at it, and be persistent and consistent.

If you haven't done so, a vet check can be a good idea to rule out any physical or medical issues that might be compounding your issue.

 

[PoodleMommy]

I think you need to take some of the advice with less of an attitude.

I was also recently having a hard time training a dog and turned to this site for ideas. RedyreRottweilers list was probably one of the most helpful and the one we follow. And I didnt think the last idea on the list was smug, but rather the truth. And although, we dont literally hit ourselves over the head if we find a mess now, we do say it is our fault and we move on.

After following all this advice, my puppy is learning. And we have been having very good days. All dogs are different, just because you trained other dogs doesnt mean you arent doing something wrong. We also had another dog, who trained much easier.

Just attempt to take the advice people give you.

Good Luck with your dog.
Elissa

 

[ARottMweilerY]

If the puppy isn't showing signs of getting ready to potty, try keeping a log of when he goes. You said he went potty, then was in the house for 25 min. and then he went. 25 min. might have been too long for him. Try taking him out maybe every 15 min. or so. Puppies usually need to go out after eating, sleeping, drinking, and Playing. If he's out playing, 15 min. is usually a safe bet. I'd take him/her out for at least 10 or so min. if the pup doesn't go, bring puppy in and crate her for 5-10 min, then repeat. Repeat this until she goes. When she does, mark the behaviour with a YES! or other reward marker, and give 3 treats one right after another. Now you can bring her back in and again let her play or what ever. Keep supervising, that's great! lol, I'm in the process of housetraining 5 puppies lol you got it easy. Good luck and keep us posted . (Sorry, I tend to forget the gender of the dog)

~Amy~