Her name is Vendetta.

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#21
Lines don't matter. But forgive me for not being wild about the fact you just put more money into the hands of a backyard breeder and just enabled him to make room for that next litter of puppies.

It's such a slippery slope with these issues.


I wish you the best with her.
Sadly true . . . I don't see the small, $50/pup *breeders* ever really going away though, and truthfully, I'd rather see someone put $50 in that pocket than several times that into the pocket of the thug breeders.

I'm learning, too, that in the APBT world, the people with the really sterling breedings have - of necessity, thanks to persecution by HSUS and others - closed ranks to people they don't know obtaining puppies.

But it's always good to see one - no matter where it came from - go to a good home with someone who will raise it to NOT be another headline :)

I don't know the answer, other than to help educate anyone (like myself) who is new to the breed and to try to keep more BYBs and mills and thugs from being created.
 

Doberluv

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#22
I have the same concerns as Miakoda but see Renee's point too. At any rate, it looks like Vendetta has come to a wonderful home and loving owner. She is truly adorable. I do hope you stick around and let us share in her development, hear stories and see pictures. Best of luck!
 

DaVinci

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#23
I have done rescue work for 28 yrs. I have only bought 2 dogs in that time. Marlow a dalamtion for my son and now Vendetta. I have a hard time seeing the true difference of a shelter dog and buying one from someone like these people. If they couldn't find homes they would eventually let them run and they would end up in the poud then the shelter. Or they would dump them along side the road and someone else would have picked her up. Any case I have her now and she is a good home. I have been researching the breed and I belong to a pitbull forum for several years. I give talks at the pet expo and the county fair on the breed. I try to keep them in a positive light and I will contitue to do that with Vendetta.
 

*Amy*

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#24
Kudos to you. I agree with you in that what you did is pretty much the same thing as adopting a dog from a rescue or pound. Either way the person that bred these dogs will probably breed again regardless of whether you bought one from them or not. If you hadn't, someone else probably would have. I'm glad you're giving her a good life and that she is in good hands.
 

Doberluv

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#25
It isn't the same though. And here's why I say that: There are all these dogs in shelters, languishing away with no homes. For every dog that a back yard breeder produces without regard to the science that reputable breeders try to go by, that's one more shelter dog that is not adopted. When someone buys a pup from a back yard breeder or pet store, those people then are "reinforced" for producing puppies. They benefit and so repeat the whole thing over again. If more people become aware of this concept, the more people will avoid choosing pups from these irresponsible breeders and they will not profit. Therefore, they will be forced to stop producing on account of not being reinforced.

There are breeders a plenty who breed with genetic health and temperment in mind, who really know how to find a compatible match for their breeding. Those are the only breeders who have any business producing puppies, those who only breed to improve upon the last generation. People who advertise in newspapers for all the public to have access to...and sell purebred puppies for $50.00, who don't make a study of the genetic health and temperament of their dogs' ancestors should not be rewarded. If there were not enough dogs in this world and it was extremely difficult to get a dog, then one might say, "okay....lets get some more dogs out there." But the over population of dogs in this world is, as you know staggering, astronomical and horribly, horribly sad. Just take a stroll through any shelter and multiply that thousands upon thousands of times over.

This is not to place blame on the OP for going to this breeder. Not in any way. It is very prevelent that the word just hasn't gotten out enough. Most people aren't aware and to fall into that situation. It is not unique. But it can only help for the future to become aware and to pass the word along. It does not have to be true that if one person doesn't acquire a puppy through a b.y.b or puppy mill, another one will. The cycle must stop somewhere. The chain has to have a link broken here and there in order to have hope for all these homeless and in many cases, screwed up dogs.

Of course I look past it at this point for the most part, don't place blame on you and truly wish you all the best with your adorable puppy. I'm sure everything will be fine. But for the future....I too got two Chihuahuas from a back yard breeder. I know what a mistake it was now. I could have rescued from a purebred rescue or a shelter and reduced the number by two. Of course, I wouldn't trade them for the world and I ended up with dogs that are healthy and have fantastic temperaments, (but soooo many don't) although they aren't terrific representations of the breed physically...or in form. If I were to breed my dogs, the uniformity of the breed would be further lost. And conversely, I went to a "reputable" breeder with a terrific history and ended up with a fine dog in every way except his physical health, which was terrible. He died at age 4. So, I guess there might be a fine line sometimes and exceptions to the rule. But over all, there are just too many dogs being bred. And it is important to be very selective.
 

cat13

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#26
Lines don't matter. But forgive me for not being wild about the fact you just put more money into the hands of a backyard breeder and just enabled him to make room for that next litter of puppies.

It's such a slippery slope with these issues.

I wish you the best with her.
I agree! But what can you do, once the puppies are born anyway?
At least she is going to have a nice life...
And again: sooooooo cute!
 

Romy

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#27
Do you have a SAR group to work with yet? Pitties can make fabulous SAR dogs. If you haven't found one yet, be aware that you may run into some prejudice because she isn't a "traditional" SAR breed like a GSD. Even my friend with collies got laughed at when she got her first SAR prospect pup. They weren't laughing when he made the team at a year and a half old. ;) Good luck, you're going to have fun.
 

Doberluv

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#28
Romy, that is so cool about your friend's dog. I think that sounds so fun too. That is so ignorant of those people to laugh about another breed doing something like that.

Good luck and have fun!
 

chanda

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#29
I have the same concerns as Miakoda but see Renee's point too. At any rate, it looks like Vendetta has come to a wonderful home and loving owner. She is truly adorable. I do hope you stick around and let us share in her development, hear stories and see pictures. Best of luck!
I agree... I also hope you will share your experience with Vendetta to us... A lot of people will be here to help you out with any problems you may have...
 

DaVinci

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#30
Thanks I guess. I say this because it seems to me that many people woukld have rather me leave her. I know she doesn't have papers I DON"T CARE. I live in an area that has many resevation and pitbulls are big with natives. They breed their dogs mainy becasue the vets here charge to much to spay. The shelter here do not offer reduced spaying either. Like I said I have done rescues for 28yrs. i think I can buy a dog if a want to. I guess that is why I don't say much on this board. You guys are judgemental. My pitbull board isn't thankfully. Did you ever concider that most of the dogs in shelters are from BYB's or accidental breedings. That is why they are surrendered to a shelter. BTW Mikado is a shelter dog and DaVinci was abandoned by a hiway (@4wks) possibly a BYB let him go with just anyone.
'm doing her SAR training myself.
 
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#31
It's not judgmental so much as we'd LOVE to see an end to this kind of breeding. It's not the papers, it's where the rest of the pups are going to end up, and that people are never going to stop irresponsibly producing pups as a source of income as long as there are people out there buying from them.

Like I said, though, I'm not nearly as worried about the $50 a pup litters as I am the ones who are purposely breeding monstrosities and charging hundreds - and even thousands for them.

It's an ideal we'd love to see, and it's just that - an ideal, but there's nothing wrong with dreaming and educating, but as you've been in rescue for so long, you know this already. Maybe if you posted more we'd know more about you ;)
 

Maxy24

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#32
We are not trying to be judgmental, none of us mean to make you feel bad. I do think you are misinterpreting us, we are not upset because you got a poorly bred pup, we are not the type to say our dogs are better because they come from good lines. We are simply afraid that your money is now being seen by that breeder as good motivation to make more pups. Supply and demand...if no one is giving them money for their pups they'll stop making pups.

My only exception would be if this was a one time only accidental litter.

We seem judgmental often because we know that SO many people read these threads, we want to make sure people who read this understand that perhaps it's not the best idea to buy from BYBs or puppy mills and that we most certainly do not support that.

I know rescue dogs come from bad breeders but the difference is that you don't pay the bad breeder for the pup, the breeder gets nothing good (from you) out of breeding irresponsibly.

We are however glad this pup is in good hands now, we want to watch her grow and hear stories about her antics and hopefully watch her become a successful SAR dog. So don't leave please, we are not angry and we do not look down on you or your dog AT ALL.
 

Doberluv

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#33
Is there any particular statement or group of sentences which felt judgemental to you? I know that I expressed my thoughts about the reasons for avoiding unscrupulous breeders and the future of the sad state of affairs with the over population problem of dogs in shelters and so forth. But I also expressed my understanding of how unintentional it is for most people who do go to byb for a puppy. I did myself. Most posters here as far as I could perceive were simply trying to be informative with thoughts for the future, while at the same time congratulating you on your new puppy and wishing you well. We love all dogs regardless of where they come from. So, I just didn't perceive anyone being very critical of you. Most people who love dogs would appreciate being informed and rather than becoming defensive would learn and move onto enjoying the forum and the discussions. No one attacked you in any way as far as I could tell.
 

DaVinci

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#34
Why even bring up that she is form a byb I didn't someone asked how she was breed. Then to say that she is poorly breed that is supose to make me want to share stories with you. I have been here I have posted.

All I was doing you ws sharing a oyous time in my life and I have been told that because I paid for her from BYB I only made it possible for this person to breed again oh yeah and she is poorly breed.

I highly doubt I will share anything more on this site. I will take my poorly bred pup and move along.
 

Doberluv

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#35
Well, okay....that's fine. I'll share some pictures of my poorly bred Chihuahuas that I got from a back yard breeder. Jose` is about 12 Lbs. (there's not suppose to exceed 6) And just look at his form! He's the funniest looking Chihuahua I ever saw! The breeder said he was a "throw back" when I called her back and told her he was continuing to grow and his floppy ears weren't going upright. He is so off the standard that I often refer to him as a mix. LOL. He was suppose to be a purebred and I paid $500.00 for him. I also paid $500.00 for patella surgery and will likely have to have it done on the other knee. And Chulita, the tan one isn't as off the standard but still, isn't what you'd call a correctly formed Chihuahua. They both have great temperaments and other than the patella luxation in Jose`, both are very healthy. I love them to pieces and wouldn't trade them for anything. BUT....I learned that it was a mistake to support this breeder because there are already enough substandard or ununiformed purebred dogs and mixes out there. We don't need more. Only the best breeders should breed.

I don't think anyones being judgemental when people make mistakes in supporting breeders who shouldn't be breeding. Everyone knows that it's a learning thing with puppy buyers like you and me. Once educated, one can spot an irresposible breeder and know the difference between them and resposible breeders. There are big red flags that are easy to spot. It's good to learn the difference to help the future of dogs living in jail cells their whole lives or being euthanized just because they take up space.

And in the meantime we give our dogs a good and happy life. And that's that. The past is the past. Next time I get a dog, I'll either go to a shelter or a breeder who really improves the breed and breeds with scientific methods in mind, striving to erraticate health and temperament issues that are so prevelent, not just someone who happens to have a purebred dog (never mind what genetic health problems it may pass onto it's offspring)

I think you're way too sensative and reading something into this which isn't really there. Such a shame to miss out on all the wonderful people here on this forum. But that's your choice.

Just to show you their form:







Chulita guarding the property. LOL. Actually, she doesn't look too bad here when she's all flexed and her hackles are up. But her legs are too skinny and her head isn't apple-like enough among other faults. At least she has been healthy so far in her 8 years of life.

 

elegy

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#36
All I was doing you ws sharing a oyous time in my life and I have been told that because I paid for her from BYB I only made it possible for this person to breed again oh yeah and she is poorly breed.
i don't think anybody cares that she's poorly bred. i have two poorly bred pit bulls. they came from shelters. lots and lots of people on this board have poorly bred dogs.

but there are a ton of people here, myself included, who are extremely concerned about the future of the pit bull breed, a future which is not at all helped by purchasing a puppy from a poor breeder, no matter how noble that puppy-buyer's intentions. i know it's hard to walk away. i understand. and i get that you're happy with your puppy and that you saved her.

but unfortunately, your purchase of that puppy had ripples beyond that. and that is where my concern lies.

for every pit bull purchased from a breeder who is breeding untested, unproven dogs, this breed takes one more babystep toward the grave. i am sorry if it upsets you that i feel that way, but i can't change my heart. i can't look at my pit bulls here and change my heart.
 

Doberluv

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#37
i don't think anybody cares that she's poorly bred. i have two poorly bred pit bulls. they came from shelters. lots and lots of people on this board have poorly bred dogs.

but there are a ton of people here, myself included, who are extremely concerned about the future of the pit bull breed, a future which is not at all helped by purchasing a puppy from a poor breeder, no matter how noble that puppy-buyer's intentions. i know it's hard to walk away. i understand. and i get that you're happy with your puppy and that you saved her.

but unfortunately, your purchase of that puppy had ripples beyond that. and that is where my concern lies.

for every pit bull purchased from a breeder who is breeding untested, unproven dogs, this breed takes one more babystep toward the grave. i am sorry if it upsets you that i feel that way, but i can't change my heart. i can't look at my pit bulls here and change my heart.


Exactly. Well said.

No one is judging you. You didn't know any better. Like I said, what's done is done. Accepting education instead of resisting it is what is good for dogs. True dog lovers will think about this and rather than becoming defensive and melow-dramatic, will realize what is being said and then enjoy their dogs like anyone else enjoys their dogs but with a deeper understanding of the whole picture. Your puppy is adorable and I'm sure you'll provide a great home for your new puppy. But think about it, learn what the ramifications are when purchasing a puppy from untested dogs from breeders who aren't doing what they should. The future of Pitbulls and all dogs depends on it. Instead of running off of emotions here, operate from a larger frame of mind where you can see and admit to the larger picture. And then get onto the business of raising the best dog you can and enjoying years of joy.
 

Maxy24

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#38
Yes and I have two cats from BYBs that i bought before knowing any better. I don't feel bad about the purchase but I am sure glad people told me that doing that was not in the best interest of cats as a whole. Now I know I won't do it again, but I don't regret getting them at all, I've simply grown wiser since then and know a better route to take in the future. If people had sat by and simply told me how adorable they were and never bothered to tell me I supported a bad breeder chances are i would have repeated myself in the future.
 

DaVinci

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#39
[/B]

Exactly. Well said.

No one is judging you. You didn't know any better. Like I said, what's done is done. Accepting education instead of resisting it is what is good for dogs. True dog lovers will think about this and rather than becoming defensive and melow-dramatic, will realize what is being said and then enjoy their dogs like anyone else enjoys their dogs but with a deeper understanding of the whole picture. Your puppy is adorable and I'm sure you'll provide a great home for your new puppy. But think about it, learn what the ramifications are when purchasing a puppy from untested dogs from breeders who aren't doing what they should. The future of Pitbulls and all dogs depends on it. Instead of running off of emotions here, operate from a larger frame of mind where you can see and admit to the larger picture. And then get onto the business of raising the best dog you can and enjoying years of joy.
What exactly didn't you ubderstand about the fact that I have done rescue work for 28yrs. I KNOW about backyard breeds very well in fact. She is going to be spayed when she is old enough. I would like to know something all of you please answwer this question.

How many of you people have spayed and neutered over 100 dogs, found them homes all with your own money just so that you knew that those dogs abandoned at old homesteads or along side the road would not produce more puppies for you to have to find homes for? I have. I have been working since I was 13yrs old and the majority of my money have gone into dogs and cats to spay them and re-home them.

Yes this guy bred his pitbull. Considering the really only acceptable registry of pitbulls is ABDA how many pitbulls do you guys know that are resgirtered with them. The most comman regisrty is te UKC which will regisrter anything with 4 legs. I can send in a picture of Vendetta I can get a registry number for her and I could say that she is registered I could wait and get her hip OFA. I could find a stud that has the same and breed her and I could do all this a 2yrs time. Would anyone of you be able to tell by looking at her and me telling you tis descern that she is not pure that she actually came from a byb. If you are not aware of it there are many and I mean many APBT's out there with hung papers.

Also the fact that the area I live in isn't condusive to allowing a person to show APBT to garnish an titles limits what we do with APBT.

I would have perfered that the man I bought her from took the money and spayed his girl but when most of the people in my area live off 6,000 to 12,000 a year I doubt that he will. He will put food on the table and clothes on his children.

Vendetta will have a good life and I saved her. She could have ended up being tortured, used as bait, left alng a road some where.

I could have taken a "shelter pup". Do you want to hear the story behind that pup? Okay I have a friend in Chicago he does alot of work with a shelter there a shelter that sees many pitbulls. Well one day him and his family were in a bad area drug dealers and such when they saw a guy outside with some bully pups. Turns out the guy breeds pitbulls and FIGHTS them. there were 6pups. My friend offered this guy $800.00 for all the pups. Yep the guy took the money. As it turns out the police were involved and the guy was arested later. I could have gotten one of these pups, but it was too soon after the death of one of my dogs. I wasn't ready. Now these were some poorly bred puppies and my friend paid out $800.00 for them. Would guys have felt differently if I would have taken one of those pups.

I'm done here. You can all thik what you want you can sit in your house and talk on the boards but I will be working my pup and saving those that I can.
 

Doberluv

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#40
Can you rescue all of the Pit bull pups bred? Can you save them all by purchasing from all the breeders who breed only for profit? Say, for mathematical simplicity sake that you have 100 irreputable breeders. Each breeds 2 dogs 4 times a year. Each litter has 6 puppies. (I'm sure the numbers would be higher, but...) Can all those puppies be bought, saved and given a loving home like you're providing? Or are a majority going to be fighting dogs who are abused? Now...take the second scenario: Fewer puppies are bought because people who want to give a loving home and save one of these dogs resist the temptation and don't buy any. They go to a shelter or a reputable breeder. Now the irresponsible breeder (who doesn't do genetic or temperament testing) is stuck with a lot of dogs that she/he can't sell. No money for the breeder. If there's not enough money, the breeder shuts down and stops producing puppies. Now there aren't 4 litters from two dogs per year bred by that breeder. Now there aren't those numbers from the hundreds (more like thousands) of other breeders. Which method is going to reduce the number of puppies which need to be saved the fastest. Sometimes you have to sacrifice one puppy to save thousands. Until you and others realize this, the problem will continue. And to continue pumping out these substandard puppies (maybe not in your case, but in many) the uniformity and the integrity of the breed will deteriorate. People who breed unscientifically, without thought to improving the breed, which many of these breeders do are destroying our purebred dogs left and right. Until people get it, it will continue to be the ruination of many of the breeds we have. Buying puppies from these people is contributing to the problem, not solving it.

This didn't start out being about being judgemental or critical. We've all said that and given you our best wishes. It's about spreading the word on how to reduce the problem of over population of dogs.
 

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