Help me to understand....
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Absolutely. Dogs don't generalize well at all. They can give a correct response lots of times to a command in one or more contexts, but throw in something different and it's as though they never did it before. This is how they are and part of how they learn. It's too bad because unknowing owners and trainers punish the dog with a yank on the collar or worse, saying the dog is "blowing me off" when the reality is that the dog is undertrained in that context or environment. Makes me crazy.
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But there are some that do exist and that do the best to do all they can and find out all they can about animals they place, especially rescues. Most Bay Area rescues are TOUGH to get dogs from... they want to know anything and everythng and do home checks, which I think should be done.
The SPCA where I got Buddy from-I said I wanted him, I paid and picked him up 3 days later after he had been neutered. No questions asked.
The Rescue from which my husband and I tried to adopt Peanut, the Great Dane... long application and they still called and asked questions, etc.. I doubt we'll get him becuase there's a long line ahead of me, but I gave the lady so much praise for what she and the rescue were doing and signed up for fostering.
The rescue in which my husband and I will go to eventually makes every family member in the household attend the "meet and greet" and you must also bring any dogs that you already have. They train each dog to be a Gentle Giant and they receive praise from all over California and some of the other states.
Be careful when knocking rescues... there are some that do an excellent job. And for those that don't, they should put more effort.
And then there are the shelters/rescues which don't bother to evaluate a dog past writing a heart-rending description for Petfinder. Their idea of matchmaking is to say "Bubbles was abused - won't you make room for her in your heart?" I'm haunted by the story of a fatal dog attack in north Jersey that was a shelter dog adopted out the previous month - it mauled the new owner's elderly neighbor to death. My sister was badly served by a shelter that actually gave her a dog that hadn't even been into a kennel yet -she walked in as the owners were signing the dog over, fell in love and offered to adopt him. The shelter actually went along with it - no health check, no home check, nothing. Even the most rudimentary temperament test would have shown this dog was unadoptably agressive.
I can tell why I'm leaning heavily toward a breeder for my next dog.
In the three years since I graduated college I've had two dogs. The first should NEVER have been allowed out for adoption. She was a 4 yr old shepherd who ended up being highly animal aggressive, alpha and snappish with other dogs, and extremely reactive to just about everything, kids, trucks, you name it she lunged at it. Going by what the original owners said this dog should have been fine. I expect the reality was closer to a dog living in their back yard at all times once they discovered she didn't have full bladder control. Barking at everything and anyone, and getting extremely frustrated. I went through six months of trying to retrain, nothing. I returned the dog to the rescue telling them all the issues I had with the dog and that they should really stop relying on what people who are dumping their dogs tell them.
It took me over a year to get over that dog and try again. My second rescue dog is wonderful. I went with a dog who my mother's dog could tolerate, and who loves absolutely everyone. Talk about polar opposite. Downside of her. some rather irritating allergies to any type of bird meat, even duck, so must have lamb and rice base diet, with NO chicken whatsoever. Compulsive Light chaser. I can not play anything in my yard when the sun is out, because Toka will ignore everything eccept the shadows on the ground. I can break her out of it with food, but it can be very very irritating.
I'm looking for a second dog and am seriously considering a breeder. A mixed breed puppy here to adopt is between $300 and $400. I'd rather pay slightly more and get a dog whose bloodlines I know than one I don't. Even if I do have to pay more overall. I can get a 9 month and up for slightly less, but I really want to have a dog I know the history of. I wish I knew why my dog is afraid of baby gates, and who played a flashlight game with her starting her obsessive chasing.
Puppies here are imported. We don't have hundreds of people dumping mixed puppies at shelters from oops litters, puppies were scarce here for years. Shelters and rescues have started importing puppies from other states to bring them to New England. Of course they're importing them from states with high numbers of puppymills. So I'm rather nervous about the overall health of these puppies, as good breeders pups should not be ending up in shelters.
We're also now getting what I think is a high incidence of hound cross dumps in the 7 month-2 year range, and as hounds generally are rare here, I expect they're from some of these rescue puppies. I'm of the opinion those rescues need to start microchipping and keeping it registered under the rescue so when these dogs get dumped the original rescue has to deal with them and the people breaking contract.
--Mia
In the three years since I graduated college I've had two dogs. The first should NEVER have been allowed out for adoption. She was a 4 yr old shepherd who ended up being highly animal aggressive, alpha and snappish with other dogs, and extremely reactive to just about everything, kids, trucks, you name it she lunged at it. Going by what the original owners said this dog should have been fine. I expect the reality was closer to a dog living in their back yard at all times once they discovered she didn't have full bladder control. Barking at everything and anyone, and getting extremely frustrated. I went through six months of trying to retrain, nothing. I returned the dog to the rescue telling them all the issues I had with the dog and that they should really stop relying on what people who are dumping their dogs tell them.
It took me over a year to get over that dog and try again. My second rescue dog is wonderful. I went with a dog who my mother's dog could tolerate, and who loves absolutely everyone. Talk about polar opposite. Downside of her. some rather irritating allergies to any type of bird meat, even duck, so must have lamb and rice base diet, with NO chicken whatsoever. Compulsive Light chaser. I can not play anything in my yard when the sun is out, because Toka will ignore everything eccept the shadows on the ground. I can break her out of it with food, but it can be very very irritating.
I'm looking for a second dog and am seriously considering a breeder. A mixed breed puppy here to adopt is between $300 and $400. I'd rather pay slightly more and get a dog whose bloodlines I know than one I don't. Even if I do have to pay more overall. I can get a 9 month and up for slightly less, but I really want to have a dog I know the history of. I wish I knew why my dog is afraid of baby gates, and who played a flashlight game with her starting her obsessive chasing.
Puppies here are imported. We don't have hundreds of people dumping mixed puppies at shelters from oops litters, puppies were scarce here for years. Shelters and rescues have started importing puppies from other states to bring them to New England. Of course they're importing them from states with high numbers of puppymills. So I'm rather nervous about the overall health of these puppies, as good breeders pups should not be ending up in shelters.
We're also now getting what I think is a high incidence of hound cross dumps in the 7 month-2 year range, and as hounds generally are rare here, I expect they're from some of these rescue puppies. I'm of the opinion those rescues need to start microchipping and keeping it registered under the rescue so when these dogs get dumped the original rescue has to deal with them and the people breaking contract.
--Mia
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Saje said:
WHO is knocking rescues!!!!! 
ALL I said was that most don't do testing. Not that I've been to. ALL of my dogs are rescued mutts and I prefer it that way. Don't jump to conclusions. And don't warn me about something when you apparently don't know where I stand.
ALL I said was that most don't do testing. Not that I've been to. ALL of my dogs are rescued mutts and I prefer it that way. Don't jump to conclusions. And don't warn me about something when you apparently don't know where I stand.
I'm not the one jumping to conclusions. I didn't say you were knocking rescues... all I did was stand up for the ones that I know that are excellent in the Bay Area. And I wasn't warning you... I was telling everyone who is intersted in this thread to not knock them. Don't get so defensive Saje, I wasn't attacking you.
D
Um excuse me but I don't think you know me. My dobie, Chico, is a resuce, so don't tell me what I have or have not worked with. I do alot of things with him such as obedience, tracking, agility and a few more things I am thinking of doing with him. Fortunately, Chico does have a high drive and good temperament but my chances of getting a rescue and it having the proper drive and temperament is slimer than getting one from good working lines. I never said its a 100% chance to get a good working dog.
Yes, I know puppies are evaluated, but I want a dog that I can breed to produce quality purebred working dogs. Not a dog that I'm forced to neuter and spay.
Well I have a rescue and I trained him and I am far from being a "true" dog trainer, so I disagree with that statement. Training a rescue is no different than training a purebred but in some sports such as schutzhund the dog needs the right drive and temperament and drive cannot be trained into a dog. You can work on the drive to bring it out more, but if a dog doesn't have it then it doesn't have it.
Yes, I know puppies are evaluated, but I want a dog that I can breed to produce quality purebred working dogs. Not a dog that I'm forced to neuter and spay.
but then again - anyone can train a puppy. it takes a true dog trainer to train a rescue
Dobie,,, if you want to go into breeding you have to start with the right pup and work for at least 5 years. I really don;t understand, surely you don't want to breed to your rescue dog !!! You need good pedigrees, health checks, titles etc to make sure pups go to the proper homes. Otherwise it's BYB.
D
No that was the point I was trying to make. When I grow up I will NOT get a rescue because I want to breed, when I find the best (IMO) working b*tch out there then I will breed aftter she has proven herself to be a quality working dog. I never said I would breed my rescue, he's neutered and I will spay/neuter any of my dogs if they are not exemplerary examples of the breed, or do not carry the proper drive and temperament because the chances of them producing quality working dogs is slim, compared to those who have the correct drive and tempreament for working ability.
T
I think what the original poster of the quote you replied to meant was...
Some rescue dogs are fine. They have their small problems just as every dog does.
But, sometmes you find these dogs that are TOTALLY screwed up. They were beaten, starved, and deprived of proper socialization. THAT is what the OP of that quote meant when he/she said it takes a TRUE trainer to train a rescue dog.
And let me tell you. Training my rescues was NOTHING like training my other dogs from puppies, or from adults(though I've had them from puppies/young adults). But, the harder the obstacles, the greater the success. I wil be forever greatful for my experience with rescue dogs.
Some rescue dogs are fine. They have their small problems just as every dog does.
But, sometmes you find these dogs that are TOTALLY screwed up. They were beaten, starved, and deprived of proper socialization. THAT is what the OP of that quote meant when he/she said it takes a TRUE trainer to train a rescue dog.
And let me tell you. Training my rescues was NOTHING like training my other dogs from puppies, or from adults(though I've had them from puppies/young adults). But, the harder the obstacles, the greater the success. I wil be forever greatful for my experience with rescue dogs.
T
Getting a purebred from a reputable breeder means you know what to expect of the breed. You have general characteristics in the breed to expect. You also have the joys of raising a wonderful little puppy. How can you resist?
Dogs from shelters CAN be GREAT dogs..but you can also get those dogs that are totally screwed up. And many dog owners do not have the time, or training to deal and rehab these dogs.
Shelter dogs most likely are the product of BYBs and Puppymills. Along with behavioral problems, you can aslo get sever health issues. Severe health issues that not everyone is able to care for.
Why breed champions? It is called responsible breeding. It is breeding with a goal and purpose in mind. You aren't just indiscriminately breeding for "just pets". You have high standards, adn hopefully your puppies will hold up to those standards and make wonderful HEALTHY companions, and maybe great show or performance dogs.
Your aunt is WONDERFUL! Make sure to THANK her for making sure her puppies have homes before she actually sells them. This promises that those puppies WILL NOT end up without a home or in a shelter. You see it as there are so many dogs in shelters. why breed? But, you should instead be thinking, we need GOOD breeders that make sure their dogs DON'T end up in shelters by use of contracts, adn research into those homes before the pups are ever placed.
As for my own decision. Yes, I got a show dog. My reasoning was selfish. *I* wanted to show. *I* wanted to win in jr showmanship. *I* wanted to gain experience. But, *I* also wanted to do better with this next dog. I wanted to change training methods, and I wanted this dog to change me for hte better of my future dogs.
I could have gotten a rescue... but I already had many many dogs. If I had broughten home a rescue that we may have found out had some aggression problems,.. with 8 dogs.. well, I can't have that. I needed something that was *absolutely certain* in its personality and behavior. With a grown show dog that has been very well socialized, I expected that, and received just that.
With that said, I am a BIG GIGANTIC advocator of rescuing dogs. I have gotten the chance to work with rescued dogs that have been abused and the victim of neglect,.. and working with these dogs, specifically Dega, has been the most rewarding thing I have ever done in my life. Rescue dogs will forever be my passion. I love those little mutts. I won't judge others for wanting purebreds.. but for me, it is all about those needy little guys. Someone's got to be there for them, right?
Dogs from shelters CAN be GREAT dogs..but you can also get those dogs that are totally screwed up. And many dog owners do not have the time, or training to deal and rehab these dogs.
Shelter dogs most likely are the product of BYBs and Puppymills. Along with behavioral problems, you can aslo get sever health issues. Severe health issues that not everyone is able to care for.
Why breed champions? It is called responsible breeding. It is breeding with a goal and purpose in mind. You aren't just indiscriminately breeding for "just pets". You have high standards, adn hopefully your puppies will hold up to those standards and make wonderful HEALTHY companions, and maybe great show or performance dogs.
Your aunt is WONDERFUL! Make sure to THANK her for making sure her puppies have homes before she actually sells them. This promises that those puppies WILL NOT end up without a home or in a shelter. You see it as there are so many dogs in shelters. why breed? But, you should instead be thinking, we need GOOD breeders that make sure their dogs DON'T end up in shelters by use of contracts, adn research into those homes before the pups are ever placed.
As for my own decision. Yes, I got a show dog. My reasoning was selfish. *I* wanted to show. *I* wanted to win in jr showmanship. *I* wanted to gain experience. But, *I* also wanted to do better with this next dog. I wanted to change training methods, and I wanted this dog to change me for hte better of my future dogs.
I could have gotten a rescue... but I already had many many dogs. If I had broughten home a rescue that we may have found out had some aggression problems,.. with 8 dogs.. well, I can't have that. I needed something that was *absolutely certain* in its personality and behavior. With a grown show dog that has been very well socialized, I expected that, and received just that.
With that said, I am a BIG GIGANTIC advocator of rescuing dogs. I have gotten the chance to work with rescued dogs that have been abused and the victim of neglect,.. and working with these dogs, specifically Dega, has been the most rewarding thing I have ever done in my life. Rescue dogs will forever be my passion. I love those little mutts. I won't judge others for wanting purebreds.. but for me, it is all about those needy little guys. Someone's got to be there for them, right?
D
I have worked with one rescue who was totally scr*wed up in the head. I sometimes help out Chico's trainer when she has alot of dogs and this one dog was just, wow is all I can say. He was agressive, I got bit actually (didn't tear skin though) and was very dog agressive, he went to attack everytime someone tried to grab his leash. Boy did I have my work cut out for me, I finally had to call Ina (chico's trainer) because this dog was crazy and I really didn't feel like getting bit up. She came in, and that dog left walking calmly on a leash and didn't even growl at anyone. She is a great trainer and I have seen her transform dogs when I thought they were a lost cause.
Rescue dogs might have more problems then dogs who had a wonderful life, but sometimes its so simple what you can do to train them.
At Chico's vet, where I work there was a very shy dog and would not budge when I put the kennel lead on her. All I had to do was grab a treat and she walked out with no problem. Now she does not fear me and literally runs out the cage to go outside and play.
Rescue dogs might have more problems then dogs who had a wonderful life, but sometimes its so simple what you can do to train them.
At Chico's vet, where I work there was a very shy dog and would not budge when I put the kennel lead on her. All I had to do was grab a treat and she walked out with no problem. Now she does not fear me and literally runs out the cage to go outside and play.
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tessa_s212 said:
t
Someone's got to be there for them, right?
Someone's got to be there for them, right?
And thank you for your response. I think my aunt is being responsible and she has potential people for the other pups, but as Mai Tai, well, isn't pregnant yet, they aren't positive on the numbers. All I can say is I can't wait to socialize
I even get to name one! Tee hee.....To everyone else: thank you for you time and your responses, I loved how everyone was so open and honest with me.
We seem to have 2 different posts here... rescue and adoption is one thing.... buying for future breeding is another. You never consider the first 2 or BYB if you want to go into breeding !!! First of all , I don't believe in buying a male or female for breeding purpose only, unless you have proven stock with all health checks. Breeding to me is to pass on proven litters .Whether for show or companion dogs,
D
I understand you, I think. I am already starting to look at different lines and working dogs. I will not get one for quite some time but I am getting a feel of which dogs I want on my dog's pedigree. I am not going to breed for soley breeding purposes but when I do come across a stunning female and she proves herself to be a high quality working dog then I will THINK about breeding her.
I had a rescue dog he passed from old age last yr but he WAS THE BEST, great with kids and other animals, only barked if something was wrong, HATED to be inside though tried many time to make him into a inside dog and never could, his FAVORITE thing in the world to do was get hooked up to a sled and pull people around in the yard LOL the only prob was he didn't want to stop lol. He was great, on the other hand i had another one i adopted that SHOULD NEVER have been adopted out and he wound up biting my daughter. The same goes with my purebreds, my collie is great for me but hates everyone tolerates the family (other members) and my shepherd loves EVERYONE, i just like the look of shepherds,
Got to jump on this again (late I know).
Adopting a dog is much much easier than adopting a kid. Most dogs will just be happy to have a family, most kids past a certain age will NOT be happy to be adopted, due to lots of attachements and other issues. Sure, often it's possible to change things, but it's much more work than adopting a dog.
NOT the same at all. That, plus it's much cheaper and easier to have a baby the old fashioned way (well, for people who can that is), than to go through all the adoption paperwork and all the money it requires.
So please, stop comparing apples and oranges.
Half the time, you don't know their origins, and for all I know 60% of the purebreds I see everyday were poorly bred. Even moreso in shelters that if the dog was from a good breeder, it wouldn't be in a shelter, because the breeder would have got it back.
And I agree with other people also, most of the time with rescues/shelters you don't know what you're getting at all, and frankly the 10 minutes spent to evaluate a dog at the closest shelter from my house definitely don't give you a good idea of what the dog is.
Frankly I don't know what I will get for my next dog. We will probably have children then so I don't want to take any risk. The best would be an adult from a good breeder I think.
Adopting a dog is much much easier than adopting a kid. Most dogs will just be happy to have a family, most kids past a certain age will NOT be happy to be adopted, due to lots of attachements and other issues. Sure, often it's possible to change things, but it's much more work than adopting a dog.
NOT the same at all. That, plus it's much cheaper and easier to have a baby the old fashioned way (well, for people who can that is), than to go through all the adoption paperwork and all the money it requires.
So please, stop comparing apples and oranges.
Half the time, you don't know their origins, and for all I know 60% of the purebreds I see everyday were poorly bred. Even moreso in shelters that if the dog was from a good breeder, it wouldn't be in a shelter, because the breeder would have got it back.
And I agree with other people also, most of the time with rescues/shelters you don't know what you're getting at all, and frankly the 10 minutes spent to evaluate a dog at the closest shelter from my house definitely don't give you a good idea of what the dog is.
Frankly I don't know what I will get for my next dog. We will probably have children then so I don't want to take any risk. The best would be an adult from a good breeder I think.
And I agree with other people also, most of the time with rescues/shelters you don't know what you're getting at all, and frankly the 10 minutes spent to evaluate a dog at the closest shelter from my house definitely don't give you a good idea of what the dog is
I don't mean to jump all over you, but parts of this thread seem to have taken a weird turn toward "second-hand = problem dog." The point of animal shelters and rescues is NOT to rehab hard-case dogs. I admit, some people seem to have fallen in love with 'rescuing' dogs with biting histories, animal aggression and serious health problems. But the majority of shelter dogs are just average dogs who are homeless for minor reasons. Their owners moved, were transferred, got old, died, moved into a nursing home, had a baby, lost a job, developed an allergy, went to prison, etc., etc.
This is what I hate. Shelters and rescues that fall into the pity trap, trying to lure adopters by emphasizing (or inventing, in the worst cases) pathos - Buddy was beaten, Tiger was teased, Shelly was neglected - without regard to the fact that this sort of storyline reinforces the very worst image people have of animal shelters as places where damaged animals are passed off to soft-hearted people with a savior complex and no other responsibilities. So all the 'normal' people go to a breeder for a puppy because that's the only way to get a reliable, worthy dog. I know that's crap, because I've gotten the very best family dog in the world from a shelter. My childhood dog would have allowed a child to set her on fire. She was absolutely reliable. I know we got lucky, and I know many shelters are criminally irresponsible when it comes to making hard choices about putting down bad dogs. But good shelters are out there, and a lot of good dogs are too.
I don't mean to jump all over you, but parts of this thread seem to have taken a weird turn toward "second-hand = problem dog." The point of animal shelters and rescues is NOT to rehab hard-case dogs. I admit, some people seem to have fallen in love with 'rescuing' dogs with biting histories, animal aggression and serious health problems. But the majority of shelter dogs are just average dogs who are homeless for minor reasons. Their owners moved, were transferred, got old, died, moved into a nursing home, had a baby, lost a job, developed an allergy, went to prison, etc., etc.
This is what I hate. Shelters and rescues that fall into the pity trap, trying to lure adopters by emphasizing (or inventing, in the worst cases) pathos - Buddy was beaten, Tiger was teased, Shelly was neglected - without regard to the fact that this sort of storyline reinforces the very worst image people have of animal shelters as places where damaged animals are passed off to soft-hearted people with a savior complex and no other responsibilities. So all the 'normal' people go to a breeder for a puppy because that's the only way to get a reliable, worthy dog. I know that's crap, because I've gotten the very best family dog in the world from a shelter. My childhood dog would have allowed a child to set her on fire. She was absolutely reliable. I know we got lucky, and I know many shelters are criminally irresponsible when it comes to making hard choices about putting down bad dogs. But good shelters are out there, and a lot of good dogs are too.