Have you ever heard the term HANG YOUR DOG???

[GSDlover_4ever]

I normally never come on the training board. But, this caught my attention. First I work with dogs on a daily basis, I have never seen a dog attack or bite a child. Dogs that are deemed a danger or unsocial are not taken around children or other animals until they have been positively rehabilitated.

GSDlover_4ever, is your Aunt still conducting training classes? if so she should be reported for allowing dangerous actions to take place. A trainer who knows dogs can judge the owner and dog and evaluate them and do not allow children in a training class. This is a disgraceful show of ignorance and a poor instructor.

For dogs that have "issues" "predatory drift" "not social" it's up to the trainer to work with the owner and dog. It's amazing the results a person will see with positive only training. Plus, a dog trained and socialized in a positive manner will be much more reliable than a dog trained with force.

Aggression begot aggression.

Excuse me?? First of all, you do not know me or my aunt. She has been an animal behavioralist for 25 years training mostly household rules, and obedience. She also trains he personal dogs for Schutzhund, S&R and personal protections. Sh has raised dogs for our local K9 unit for many years, and has had over 50 dogs in her lofe, all of whom have been from working lines. Do NOT question my aunts experience. I dont care who you are, what you do, NOTHING. Just let it be known that NO ONE will question my aunts experience and get away with it.

The dog was a GSD from working lines, lived with a family and the family gave him to a friend. He was a friendly to, grew up with children. I even petted him that day, too, and he gave me nothing but a friendly stare. The child went to pet him while we were doing an exercise (excuse me if my aunt only has two eyes like everyone else ) and did not notice the child, next thing we know the girl screams, and by thr time my aunt or I got there he had already bitten her twice. My aunt had to grab the dog and hung him (taking his breath away) because he was so riled and wanted to kill the girl for some reason. The bite was no one's fault but the dog.

 

[chickenlittle]

Wait wait wait...I need to get my opcorn:


Ok Ready now

 

[dr2little]

First of all I was NOT reffering to my dogs, I gave one example of my dog Caza and that involved him trying to bite me when i first got him. He is indefferent to children and adults, as are all my dogs. I have seen dogs bite children and get away with it. One time in my aunts training class this dog (big dog) just outright bit this little girl and went in for another bite, while the owner just stood there saying, "no, Max stop, please stop", WTF??? This dog was practically ATTACKING this little girl for no reason and the owner did nothing. You better believe if that was my dog he would have been hurt. You hurt a little child, I hurt you simple as that. I'm surprised that people would allow this to happen and do nothing. Are you people honestly telling me that you would sit around and do NOTHING if your dog had a serious agreeion problem and a person's life and well-being was at risk.

No one ever suggested that they would stand by and allow a dog to attack a child. You may want to take another read through the posts as some of responses sound like you may have skimmed.
The OP's question had nothing to do with stopping an attack.

 

[dr2little]

Who in the hell do you think you are?? Honestly, I'm not trying to be a smart-ass. Your way is NOT the only way, when will you realize this. You cannot go around saying everyone who doesnt agree with you is incompatent, know- nothing, ignorant barbarians. There are MANY AMAZING trainers out there who DO believe in corrections, and their methods work, as well as yours. I never doubted your methods, but there are some things I dont agree with but you dont see me calling you an ignorant, tree-hugger.

I wish YOU could follow me around for a day, or week, and I'm sure you would see some differences between these dogs and yours.

I'm affraid GSD, that if I ever saw anyone hanging a dog in the name of training, calling them an incompatent, ignorant barbarian would be most fitting.....and prelude to my calling the authorities. Where would you ever have seen this done anymore? Any trainer who uses this to "train" a dog should be reported!!
As far as seeing differences between the dogs you're referring to and the ones that I've worked with

 

[IliamnasQuest]

Hmmm .. just a few comments.

In the old days of training (the "archaic" methods, as I like to call them) hanging the dog was not uncommon. This is before people really started understanding behavior and how to shape proper behaviors through reinforcement, desensitization, etc. There are, unfortunately, some trainers who still advocate stringing up the dog or even helicoptering (leerburg still says to do this .. *shaking my head*).

Stringing up a dog is not the same as stopping an attack. Of course we would all pull our dog back if it tried to attack a child. But to then yank the leash into the air and deliberately hold our dogs with their front feet off the ground until they are fighting to breath is not the proper way to deal with the behavior. If you want to build a lot of fear in your dog, it works. Pain IS an effective means of training. But pain does not build trust, understanding or willing compliance.

oc spirit: I know what you're talking about with the sled dogs. I used to help with the local teams for their health checks prior to going into the Iditarod, and I don't think I saw a single dog on all fours when being led from the dog boxes. But there's a big difference between the way the sled dogs lunge forward on their collars, and the positioning of the collar/leash when "stringing up" a dog. The leash would come straight upwards, pulling the collar up under the jaw where the throat is the most sensitive and easily choked.

This area is the same area some trainers (like Millan) advocate for placement of the training collars. Most people don't realize it's the area that creates the most pain and oxygen deprivation. If you grab your throat low down and squeeze, and then try right up under your jaw and squeeze, you can see the difference.

GSDlover: I'm really curious as to where you aunt got her PhD in behaviorism. And are you typical of one of her students?

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[cindr]

Wow: I guess this subject has brought up some very good issues. I know that in my days of training I have given a correction at the time a correction is required.

Hanging the dog only makes the situation that more dramatic!!!!!!!!!!!! If the dog was in an attack position and injuring a child. This is what I would be seeing. Now I am looking at it in my personal perspective and not at any time judging any one here.

So here goes: Doggie has child. Trainer and or owner pulls said dog up and in the air to hange the dog. The dog is still attached to the child. Okay now what further damage can happen to the child. Now I am not saying that happened but what if it did? Where should the justice have been in the area as to either dog or child? The dog may eventually let go do to the lack of air avail. But generally when a dog is in that type of mood and or deminor hanging in my eyes would only make the situation worse. Especially with everyones emotions running wild.

No I would have handled the situation so much differant and to be honest with you that situation would not have occured on my watch. Again I am not judging anyone I am just stating that aggressive handlers and handling can bring out the worse in the dog the situation and those in the surrounding area. Just be happy that the child did not get to badly hurt.

 

[Doberluv]

Whew! I can't believe what I missed. My computer died and I had to get a new one so its been a while. So, here I come to this thread and I can't believe that a discussion can even be made as to whether or not hanging a dog is a training method. Absolutely insane.

 

[otch1]

Well put Doberluv... that is the point, GSDlover. You are not reading all of the comments provided, start to finish, and you're making me regret answering Cindrs' initial question, the way I did. You would stop a dog from attacking another dog or human with what ever means possible. So would the rest of us. We are on the same page. We, as trainers, would not use "stringing up" or "hanging" as a training tool though. For a dog that refuses a down, breaks a stay, jumps up on others... none of us, your aunt included, would use this method as a correction during training. There are two different issues here. We really are on the same page. Again, it is the manner in which you speak in print, that has some people believing you'd resort to violence/aggression just because you can. It sounds as if that's how you feel all dogs should be handled, and I don't believe you really feel that way. I would never attack you verbally, I don't care what training methods your aunt uses and you're opinions certainly don't upset me. As you recall from my earlier posts, I specialize in behavioral modification of aggressive dogs. I understand what you might be learning, at this time, concerning dog training. What I am hoping, is that you will be open to other methods of behavioral modification, you will keep reading and posting and not get upset with what's put in print. Again, as I stated before, if you re-word your posts, do a little homework, then you'll have more challenging and respectful debates with the trainers involved. On this thread, I think you're missing the point that no one was intitally disagreeing with you when it comes to preventing an attack... somehow things went "south". lol Have a nice eveing.

 

[elegy]

Are you people honestly telling me that you would sit around and do NOTHING if your dog had a serious agreeion problem and a person's life and well-being was at risk.

1. there's a difference between physically breaking a dog off a dog or person being attacked and correcting a dog. if something happened and my dogs ended up in a fight, i would have no problem choking a dog off another dog. sometimes you have to do what you have to do to stop a fight. but choking a dog off is NOT A TRAINING METHOD. i'd also have to step back and kick myself in the head for allowing my dogs to be put into that situation.

2. there is all kinds of space between physical assault and doing nothing in training. positive does not mean permissive.

 

[Muggie'sMum]

Oh yeah, I'm going to say to my dog "Honey, I really dont appreciate it when you growl, please dont do it again", yeah that will work. Horses are different animals, they comprehend things differently than dogs.

PS, My concious (sp) is clear.

An animal is an animal is an animal. They don't speak our language, and MOST of us don't speak theirs! They learn the same way. I certainly don't SAY "honey, I don't appreciate it when you growl, please don't do it again", but I use actions (that are non violent and non aggressive) to let animals know that their behaviour is unacceptable and guide them along a path towards a different behaviour. You can call me a tree hugger all you want - but I certainly don't believe in beating or hurting an animal because we don't speak the same language.

In any kind of animal husbandry you see people who believe that they look best when they are choking, beating or otherwise physically intimidating their animals. It's called little man syndrome, some people genuinely believe the only way to communicate with these animals to whom we are stewards and sole care providers is to scare them, hurt them or otherwise intimidate them. I would much rather have an animal listening to my commands based on the fact that they respect me and wish to please me rather than because they are frightened of me and what I will do if they don't comply. Makes for a much sounder mind, does it not?

I am not beyond using excessive measures when you are in the heat of a situation - if a dog is heading towards a kid to bite it and won't respond to commands, by all means, do what you have to do to protect that precious child, but using it in training is just a way to breed a beligerent, frightened animal that is less likely to want to cooperate with you at any given time.

 

[cindr]

Whew! I can't believe what I missed. My computer died and I had to get a new one so its been a while. So, here I come to this thread and I can't believe that a discussion can even be made as to whether or not hanging a dog is a training method. Absolutely insane.

Point well made: I origanally brought up the subject due to what I have seen other trainers did in the past. I Really believe that we have come along way with the positive reinforcements in behavioral methods we have to day.

We as trainers can either make or break the dogs we so dearly love. I have seen trainers in the past take a soft dog one that was afraid of its shadow and hang it. No reason and or ryme.

I have seen a dog breeder literally hang the female dog and drop her to her knees to get that so called expected breeding. To be honest with you I sincerely beleive that these people use this type of base rate to gain control of the dogs and nothing else. My way or the highway. This perticular party was reported and charged with animal abuse. Good Job SPCA

Now as far as a dog attacking or in full blown attack we have to consider the situation as stated before. One we never place a human and or a dog in a poistion that is not desired. Therefore if we are the trainers we state we are we will always be ready for anything by learning to read the dog better yet reading the owner. No dog reacts out of contex just because. Only humans have that tendancy. So I guess this situation brought up a lot of differant veiws, But most of them the same. HANGING A DOG IS CRUEL AND A UNJUSTIFIED TEC OF THE PAST AND SHOULD NOT BE USED TODAY. ALL SAID AND DONE

 

[mrose_s]

Yes, more commonly refered to as "stringing them up", a very old school correction for out of control or aggressive dogs. "Stringing them up", cutting off the air supply as they charge foward at the end of the lead, so that their front paws are off the ground and keeping them there until the lack of oxygen has them near a point of fainting. This leaves the dog quite docile in some instances, upon recovery... if done incorrectly, it also does extreme damage to the throat, can collapse a trachia, and cause permanent damage. Simply not a smart thing to do!!

oh god. i've never heard of that but yuck!

 

[mrose_s]

personally. i think animal has a soul. and all souls are equal. people mass murder people. you don't see them being strung up by the neck. yet we can do it to a dog? wtf?!

i also see language as a barrier. as we will never actually speak with a dog, its life is of lesser value? how can we allow ourselves that power?

these torture methods disgust me. our society has come further than that. sickens me

 

[Poppy]

GSDlover_4ever Excuse me?? First of all, you do not know me or my aunt. She has been an animal behavioralist for 25 years training mostly household rules, and obedience. She also trains he personal dogs for Schutzhund, S&R and personal protections. Sh has raised dogs for our local K9 unit for many years, and has had over 50 dogs in her lofe, all of whom have been from working lines. Do NOT question my aunts experience. I dont care who you are, what you do, NOTHING. Just let it be known that NO ONE will question my aunts experience and get away with it.

The dog was a GSD from working lines, lived with a family and the family gave him to a friend. He was a friendly to, grew up with children. I even petted him that day, too, and he gave me nothing but a friendly stare. The child went to pet him while we were doing an exercise (excuse me if my aunt only has two eyes like everyone else ) and did not notice the child, next thing we know the girl screams, and by thr time my aunt or I got there he had already bitten her twice. My aunt had to grab the dog and hung him (taking his breath away) because he was so riled and wanted to kill the girl for some reason. The bite was no one's fault but the dog.

First off, I would love to question your Aunt and her experience. With 25 years under her belt as an animal behaviorist she must have a website, e-mail address, training facility name, phone number. Please PM me or post on this board, since she is a public trainer that should not be an issue. So, please do forward her information, I would love to talk to her on a professional level.

You Aunt would obviously know that the act committed by the GSD dog was an act of predatory drift. The act of staring and stalking is very easy for an experienced eye to catch. Being a professional she should have noticed this right away.

Of course, in a situation where a dog is going to bite any action by owner or handler should be taken to stop the attack. But, once recognized the dog should be positively shaped and socialized properly. Violence only suppresses the aggressive response and next time the outcome can be much more severe.

 

[Bobsk8]

Reading some of these posts seems like a primer for someone that wants to learn how to abuse animals...As for the dog that attacks their owner, I wouldn't keep a dog like that, period.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

First of all I never said anything about it being a training technique. I do not string my dog for not sitting, or pulling me, thats just rediculous, but I do not take agression lightly. Sorry if I dont let my dogs get away with things you do.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

GSDlover: I'm really curious as to where you aunt got her PhD in behaviorism. And are you typical of one of her students?

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Actually I am not her "student". I learn from ALL my trainers in my life and I pull out what works for me. My aunt is very soft on her pet dogs. For her obedience classes she uses nothing but motivation. But I see the behind the scenes, living with her. SHe corrects HER dogs, and doesnt put that out in the public. No one knows how we handle our dogs, because they are different. They would take advantage of us, and most of our dogs have alpha personalities (thats why her males are never together). I really do wish you guys could see what I am talking about, but you've seen ALL the dogs in the world, right?? .

Tell me Dr2little, why in the world a hardass working, personal protection, hardcore working dog is in a pet home, and they attend your class for assistance for their PETS? Any person who has a working dog should have some experience with training. I just dont understand how a responsible working dog breeder would place a real working dog in a pet home. And if they are irresponsible then their dogs probably are not even hardcore working dogs.

PS: Fear biters dont count as "hard".

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

Reading some of these posts seems like a primer for someone that wants to learn how to abuse animals...As for the dog that attacks their owner, I wouldn't keep a dog like that, period.

Caza is an AMAZING working dog, and I was not going to give that up because he was confused as to who was really in charge. I have never had a problem since.

 

[otch1]

Gsdlover... your post #37, confirmed what I'm talking about. We are saying the same thing here in some posts but misunderstanding each other because of wording and it's becoming very repetitive. No one let's their dogs "get away with things", especially those of us that are really trainers for a living. We, Dr2 I'm certain, have very high expectations of our dogs. No one uses "hanging" as a training/correction in obedience training, not even your aunt in her classes, as you stated. But you are learning some of what you state in posts, from your aunt, (her "behind the scene" corrections.) We both know you have not had years of experience learning from a multitude of trainers, at just 17 yrs. of age, and the type of dog you speak of when you say "working" are schutzund and protection dogs. Agreed, a very different temperament, at times. Please remember though, the shepard was and is used extensively, as a guide dog for the blind, therapy dogs, and search and rescue. I've done demos and public speaking with a service dog organization and our very large, local k-9 unit with the police dept. We promoted our dogs in the same public forums, just fine.These are dogs equally as driven when sent after a target while working in law enforcement, as the dogs you're familiar with. They can also do a public speaking engagement at an elementary school with 10 year olds and go home with their officer/handler to his family, when the work days' over. There is a way to train for complete obedience, even with intact males, working dogs and the likes, using safe handling practices, without all of the "drama". O.K., no more motherly speaches, truce??

 

[whatszmatter]

I just dont understand how a responsible working dog breeder would place a real working dog in a pet home. And if they are irresponsible then their dogs probably are not even hardcore working dogs.

That happens. Not every dog in a working litter is capable, so not every puppy is placed in a pet home. Add to the fact that getting puppies as working dogs is a crap shoot at best. A very good friend of mine had 10 puppies 3 went to pet, 5 went to working homes, and 2 were kept back by the breeder. They got some back for imprinting and further training, it comes with buying a puppy from them that you get advanced training for you and the dog after 6 months (on site one on one training). They had one in particular come back. Smallest, slowest, showed the lowest amount of drive (almost none) and was sold to a pet home. Fast forward 6 or 7 months later and they got the dog back for boarding and some training (owners were on vacation) and this was probably the 2nd strongest dog in the litter.

It was no longer the smallest, had drive and confidence that I would kill for to find regularly in dogs, and it was in a pet home. We offered to let them keep the dog on paper as long as they let us train and title the dog, they could maintaing breeding rights if it came to that, and we would give them another puppy or dog. If they didn't want to do that, we offered to buy the dog back (plus some extra) and give them another dog free. They didn't want to do either.

So now there is a very driven, very confident, very good dog in a pet home. And it happened all thru some of the top people in the GSD world, it happend with people that have trained dogs for and been competitors in the WUSV, USA nationals, have some of the very few FH II titles awarded in the US every year. But since this dog is so stable in temperment they most likely will never have an issue with it other than a very active dog which they can handle. IF this dog would have exhibited some more sharpness etc with this family it could turn into trouble in a hurry for them.