Guess what?
- Thread starter SmexyPibble
- Start date
Sorry, thought I had posted right after. ^The "because"...
Mini Aussies are just smaller versions of the regular standard we know and love. Some breeders try to pawn them off as designer breed, and breed them smaller and smaller so you get the "teacups" and "toys". And then charge you and arm and a leg because they are "rare".
Mini Aussies are just smaller versions of the regular standard we know and love. Some breeders try to pawn them off as designer breed, and breed them smaller and smaller so you get the "teacups" and "toys". And then charge you and arm and a leg because they are "rare".
Ya know.. the "mini" thing doesn't bother me so much... if they're still doing everything else that would put them in the reputable breeder category, I'd have a hard time letting that one thing make me think they're not a good breeder.
I mean I don't think they seem so bad: http://www.birchviewkennel.com/index.html
But ehhh I don't know.
I mean I don't think they seem so bad: http://www.birchviewkennel.com/index.html
But ehhh I don't know.
[delurking]
Mini Aussies are NOT "just smaller versions"--they are a separate breed with a separate breed standard. Australian Shepherds may have been used in the creation of the Mini or the North American or the Royal Basque Shepherd or whatever the current name is, and bad breeders may still breed Australian Shepherds to Minis, but they are two completely different breeds, despite what some Mini people may try to sell them as (or ILP them as). There's a reason ASCA or the USASA doesn't recognize/register them, and why there aren't varieties listed in either the ASCA or AKC standard (like there are for Poodles). The second the Mini people wrote their own standard, with given height guidelines, it became a separate breed. They may look like Aussies, but they're no more a smaller version of an Aussie than a MinPin is a smaller version of a Doberman.
I'm not trying to pick at your post, Merico; it's a common misconception--we have this conversation about three times a year on one of my Aussie lists when some poor, unsuspecting Mini owner joins thinking their new puppy is just a size variation of the Aussie. I have respect, actually, for the people who are trying to take "Australian Shepherd" out of the breed name (the North American Shepherd, Royal Basque Shepherd) and recognizing amongst themselves that they have a different, separate breed.
And don't even get me started on the 'Toy Aussie' debacle--"We even bred out that annoying herding instinct!"
[/delurking]
Mini Aussies are NOT "just smaller versions"--they are a separate breed with a separate breed standard. Australian Shepherds may have been used in the creation of the Mini or the North American or the Royal Basque Shepherd or whatever the current name is, and bad breeders may still breed Australian Shepherds to Minis, but they are two completely different breeds, despite what some Mini people may try to sell them as (or ILP them as). There's a reason ASCA or the USASA doesn't recognize/register them, and why there aren't varieties listed in either the ASCA or AKC standard (like there are for Poodles). The second the Mini people wrote their own standard, with given height guidelines, it became a separate breed. They may look like Aussies, but they're no more a smaller version of an Aussie than a MinPin is a smaller version of a Doberman.
I'm not trying to pick at your post, Merico; it's a common misconception--we have this conversation about three times a year on one of my Aussie lists when some poor, unsuspecting Mini owner joins thinking their new puppy is just a size variation of the Aussie. I have respect, actually, for the people who are trying to take "Australian Shepherd" out of the breed name (the North American Shepherd, Royal Basque Shepherd) and recognizing amongst themselves that they have a different, separate breed.
And don't even get me started on the 'Toy Aussie' debacle--"We even bred out that annoying herding instinct!"
[/delurking]
Where are you getting your information from??? I mean really...either start citing your sources or go read something accurate.
And who says "mini pits" dont' exist? Have you seen some of the older pictures...there are dogs that are right around 30lbs. Compared to what most people have as APBT's today (around 50ish or so) and then the huge Blue Hippo Pits, those could technically be called "mini pits". But the APBT standard has a pretty broad range within itself, whereas the ASCA standard is very definite in what is acceptable and what is not.
And who says "mini pits" dont' exist? Have you seen some of the older pictures...there are dogs that are right around 30lbs. Compared to what most people have as APBT's today (around 50ish or so) and then the huge Blue Hippo Pits, those could technically be called "mini pits". But the APBT standard has a pretty broad range within itself, whereas the ASCA standard is very definite in what is acceptable and what is not.
I don't think you can really compare mini aussies to teacup chihuahuas.
Regular chihuahuas have health problems BECAUSE of their size - joint problems, eye problems, teeth problems, etc. That's why, IMO, it's a bad idea to breed them even smaller - smaller dogs, more health problems.
"Regular" Aussies, though, don't have health problems because of their size - except maybe Hip Dysplasia, though that's a problem because of their large size, not their small size. So actually, when you breed them smaller, their health problems might go away.
Toy aussies, though, probably have many of the health problems seen in toy breeds - toy poodles, chihuahuas, yorkies, etc. - so I don't think it's a great idea to breed those. JMO, of course.
Regular chihuahuas have health problems BECAUSE of their size - joint problems, eye problems, teeth problems, etc. That's why, IMO, it's a bad idea to breed them even smaller - smaller dogs, more health problems.
"Regular" Aussies, though, don't have health problems because of their size - except maybe Hip Dysplasia, though that's a problem because of their large size, not their small size. So actually, when you breed them smaller, their health problems might go away.
Toy aussies, though, probably have many of the health problems seen in toy breeds - toy poodles, chihuahuas, yorkies, etc. - so I don't think it's a great idea to breed those. JMO, of course.
[delurking]
Mini Aussies are NOT "just smaller versions"--they are a separate breed with a separate breed standard. Australian Shepherds may have been used in the creation of the Mini or the North American or the Royal Basque Shepherd or whatever the current name is, and bad breeders may still breed Australian Shepherds to Minis, but they are two completely different breeds, despite what some Mini people may try to sell them as (or ILP them as). There's a reason ASCA or the USASA doesn't recognize/register them, and why there aren't varieties listed in either the ASCA or AKC standard (like there are for Poodles). The second the Mini people wrote their own standard, with given height guidelines, it became a separate breed. They may look like Aussies, but they're no more a smaller version of an Aussie than a MinPin is a smaller version of a Doberman.
I'm not trying to pick at your post, Merico; it's a common misconception--we have this conversation about three times a year on one of my Aussie lists when some poor, unsuspecting Mini owner joins thinking their new puppy is just a size variation of the Aussie. I have respect, actually, for the people who are trying to take "Australian Shepherd" out of the breed name (the North American Shepherd, Royal Basque Shepherd) and recognizing amongst themselves that they have a different, separate breed.
And don't even get me started on the 'Toy Aussie' debacle--"We even bred out that annoying herding instinct!"
[/delurking]
Mini Aussies are NOT "just smaller versions"--they are a separate breed with a separate breed standard. Australian Shepherds may have been used in the creation of the Mini or the North American or the Royal Basque Shepherd or whatever the current name is, and bad breeders may still breed Australian Shepherds to Minis, but they are two completely different breeds, despite what some Mini people may try to sell them as (or ILP them as). There's a reason ASCA or the USASA doesn't recognize/register them, and why there aren't varieties listed in either the ASCA or AKC standard (like there are for Poodles). The second the Mini people wrote their own standard, with given height guidelines, it became a separate breed. They may look like Aussies, but they're no more a smaller version of an Aussie than a MinPin is a smaller version of a Doberman.
I'm not trying to pick at your post, Merico; it's a common misconception--we have this conversation about three times a year on one of my Aussie lists when some poor, unsuspecting Mini owner joins thinking their new puppy is just a size variation of the Aussie. I have respect, actually, for the people who are trying to take "Australian Shepherd" out of the breed name (the North American Shepherd, Royal Basque Shepherd) and recognizing amongst themselves that they have a different, separate breed.
And don't even get me started on the 'Toy Aussie' debacle--"We even bred out that annoying herding instinct!"
[/delurking]
Or are the majority breeding and selling for pet homes?
Personally I wouldn't care whether they were in AKC or not, because for my breed (Jrts the REAL Working Parson), we oppose them being in kennel club. Therefore I don't believe that AKC is the only or best game in town.
There is NAMASCA (North American Miniature Australian Shepherd Club of America) which functions as a registry, and does have a Nationals, but they want the Mini Aussie to be considered a size variety of the Aussie, which neither ASCA or USASA (the AKC side of the breed) want, as far as I know. The "Toy Aussie" are most definitely just sold as pets--I've seen more than one site saying that they're "just like an Australian Shepherd, only tiny, and they won't do any herding behavior!" Yeah, because they're Pom mixes.
I'm not a Mini Aussie person, so I really don't know the ins and outs of what breeders are doing with their puppies. I think some do herd, although the majority of Mini Aussies I know of do agility. I don't mind their existence, I just wish they weren't called Mini Aussies, as if there were size varieties in the Australian Shepherd. And I'm with you 100% on whether or not they're in the AKC--I prefer ASCA-registered Aussies because they're the original registry/breed club and they did not want AKC to recognize the breed. USASA only developed for AKC recognition. I just mentioned the AKC stuff because there have been attempts to have the Mini recognized as a size variety, and because there's at least one famous, registered (with NAMASCA) Mini Aussie that is ILPed as an Aussie and is running/winning AKC agility.
SmexyPibble, I hope you have fun working with these dogs and that none of this Mini Aussie controversy scared you off. It's, as you can see, a pretty touchy subject for a lot of people on both sides and in both breeds. Good luck!
I'm not a Mini Aussie person, so I really don't know the ins and outs of what breeders are doing with their puppies. I think some do herd, although the majority of Mini Aussies I know of do agility. I don't mind their existence, I just wish they weren't called Mini Aussies, as if there were size varieties in the Australian Shepherd. And I'm with you 100% on whether or not they're in the AKC--I prefer ASCA-registered Aussies because they're the original registry/breed club and they did not want AKC to recognize the breed. USASA only developed for AKC recognition. I just mentioned the AKC stuff because there have been attempts to have the Mini recognized as a size variety, and because there's at least one famous, registered (with NAMASCA) Mini Aussie that is ILPed as an Aussie and is running/winning AKC agility.
SmexyPibble, I hope you have fun working with these dogs and that none of this Mini Aussie controversy scared you off. It's, as you can see, a pretty touchy subject for a lot of people on both sides and in both breeds. Good luck!
I actually considered "Mini Aussies" for a short while... because there happens to be several REPUTABLE breeders in my area, who have really, truly amazing working dogs. I haven't had the pleasure of seeing many Aussies work, to be honest, and I had trouble finding ANY actively breeding working Aussie breeders within my state. The few Aussies I have seen work were from byb/agility breeding and were less than impressive; I love seeing working Aussies, and I know how amazing a well-bred Aussie is on livestock, but unfortunately it seems that the working side is all but dying out. However, the "Minis" that I had classes with were very agile, focused, and controlled. Really nice, balanced dogs that were of perfect stature to work anything from ducks to cattle.
The first "Minis" I met, and the first breeders I spoke to, were all very focused on producing skilled, versatile working dogs; so I admit that I was partial to them mostly due to those first experiences. But, after researching the breed more, and talking to working Aussie people, I realized that the best alternative is finding a working Aussie breeder who bred on the smaller end of the standard. I wanted a lithe, compact working dog, not a 70 lb fluffy goof (as cute as they are). I decided to get into another breed (Cardis), just due to all of the controversy and the lack of working Aussie breeders anywhere nearby, and the lack of mentors. There is also the fact that, even if it started as a novel idea, "Mini Aussies" have indeed become a hot designer dog much more than a compact working dog... bred to Poms and Chis and whatnot to create fluffy blue merle purse accessories. Simply by owning a "Mini", well bred or not, I would become associated with those dogs and breeders. The vast majority of Mini Aussies I now see frequenting the dog park and dog fairs are of the domed-headed, barely-even-resembling-Aussies-especially-in-the-brains-department type.
I still have no problem with breeding Aussies who are under standard, as long as they excel at the work they were bred to do... I mean, a 12" 15 lb toy Aussie is not going to be able to handle livestock... but if a dog 2" under the standard can work, as far as I'm concerned that dog is just as great an example of the breed as a dog in standard who can work. However, because of the split and the disapproval of many Aussie enthusiasts, I intend to steer clear of "Mini Aussies".
It will be interesting to see what's up with the "Mini" breeder you might be working for, SP. It would be really nice if they actually proved their dogs, and bred responsibly, but I won't get my hopes up considering the statistics of the breed.
The first "Minis" I met, and the first breeders I spoke to, were all very focused on producing skilled, versatile working dogs; so I admit that I was partial to them mostly due to those first experiences. But, after researching the breed more, and talking to working Aussie people, I realized that the best alternative is finding a working Aussie breeder who bred on the smaller end of the standard. I wanted a lithe, compact working dog, not a 70 lb fluffy goof (as cute as they are). I decided to get into another breed (Cardis), just due to all of the controversy and the lack of working Aussie breeders anywhere nearby, and the lack of mentors. There is also the fact that, even if it started as a novel idea, "Mini Aussies" have indeed become a hot designer dog much more than a compact working dog... bred to Poms and Chis and whatnot to create fluffy blue merle purse accessories. Simply by owning a "Mini", well bred or not, I would become associated with those dogs and breeders. The vast majority of Mini Aussies I now see frequenting the dog park and dog fairs are of the domed-headed, barely-even-resembling-Aussies-especially-in-the-brains-department type.
I still have no problem with breeding Aussies who are under standard, as long as they excel at the work they were bred to do... I mean, a 12" 15 lb toy Aussie is not going to be able to handle livestock... but if a dog 2" under the standard can work, as far as I'm concerned that dog is just as great an example of the breed as a dog in standard who can work. However, because of the split and the disapproval of many Aussie enthusiasts, I intend to steer clear of "Mini Aussies".
It will be interesting to see what's up with the "Mini" breeder you might be working for, SP. It would be really nice if they actually proved their dogs, and bred responsibly, but I won't get my hopes up considering the statistics of the breed.
The thing is though, you can still find small Aussies that are within standard, for the most part. Django and Saywer are both Aussies, but Django is 33 pounds and Saywer is around 60. They are similar in height, but Django's proportions are a bit smaller.
I don't know what my problem is, but BOTH of my dogs are tiny for their breeds, BUT both of them are WITHIN standard, though John Q Public , I'm sure, would asl me if they are "minis".
I don't know what my problem is, but BOTH of my dogs are tiny for their breeds, BUT both of them are WITHIN standard, though John Q Public , I'm sure, would asl me if they are "minis".