Forced sick leave pay
- Thread starter Gena
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and as always the best answer for most of us lies in the middle. If there were not gov'ts and we were a country like some propaganda sites would like to tell you is best. We'd still be slaves, have the same types of problems, probably worse. Except we wouldn't have a gov't to blame it would be a large company that controlled all the money and resources and when they decided you weren't worth it any more there would be nobody to help level the playing field.
those who think employers would change because the work force would demand it are not paying attention. At least they weren't when rebellions and such came up in school. Take a look back at the textiles history, or mining, or agriculture (slaves anyone?) transportation safety, roads, bridges, think privately owned toll roads are going to be better? How about water and sewer? Check out the movie Blue Gold and see what it's like when water is privately owned.
those who think employers would change because the work force would demand it are not paying attention. At least they weren't when rebellions and such came up in school. Take a look back at the textiles history, or mining, or agriculture (slaves anyone?) transportation safety, roads, bridges, think privately owned toll roads are going to be better? How about water and sewer? Check out the movie Blue Gold and see what it's like when water is privately owned.
The problem, in my opinion is, that through a free and liberal market, countries, that are able to export, can thrive - however countries, that have nothing, and there are enough out there, are unable keep up with the economic standards or export countries. For example places like Somalia or Sierra Leone, are practically ruined by the free market system. They have nothing to export, because their agriculture does not thrive, they have no technology, they have nothing. And those that are left? The farmers, are being ruined by our liberal system. Lets take milk for example. Ghana for example imports the cheeper milk powder from germany. Because of this, the dairy farmers in Ghana are not able to survive, because they can not afford to keep up with the low milk prices of the import milk. The people in Ghana are not able to pay for the local milk and are forced into liquidation, leaving them jobless.
Is globalization good for me, personally? Yes. But I need to take into consideration, what it is doing to others.
The econimic crisis has shown how well the capitalistic system worked for the US, hasn't it? Wasn't it due to the capitalisic system in the first place, that got us into this mess?
Markets are not regulating themselves, as we can see. It is not only the Government's fault.
Ill post more later... I just need to let the dog out.
Is globalization good for me, personally? Yes. But I need to take into consideration, what it is doing to others.
The econimic crisis has shown how well the capitalistic system worked for the US, hasn't it? Wasn't it due to the capitalisic system in the first place, that got us into this mess?
Markets are not regulating themselves, as we can see. It is not only the Government's fault.
Ill post more later... I just need to let the dog out.
Sorry about hijacking your thread, by the way We got a little carried away...
Just to get a little bit back on topic. If America had a working health system - then sick days should not be such a large problem as they would be. For example, here, in Germany, Employers are requiered to pay 6 weeks of sick leave. If someone is sick past these 6 weeks, your health insurance is requiered to pay. That system wouldn't be able to work, due to the lack of Health Insurance regulations in the US.
Maybe its just me - but I see more problems without a Health reform, than with one.
We got a little carried away... Just to get a little bit back on topic. If America had a working health system - then sick days should not be such a large problem as they would be. For example, here, in Germany, Employers are requiered to pay 6 weeks of sick leave. If someone is sick past these 6 weeks, your health insurance is requiered to pay. That system wouldn't be able to work, due to the lack of Health Insurance regulations in the US.
Maybe its just me - but I see more problems without a Health reform, than with one.
I don't have time right now to spend on this and yes, it is getting a little off the subject. But NO...capitalism is NOT what got our country into this mess. I don't know how old you are or how long you've lived in this country....in other words, if you experienced what real capitalism even was and how much this country prospered in years past. No, capitalism hasn't been allowed to thrive in recent years on account of just what this an other economists will tell you.
Gipsy...you're thoughts are interesting to me. You come with a different set of experiences than I'll ever have.
For me, the biggest issue with the government regulating that employers pay this or that is that it isn't my employers burden to ensure I have my needs met. I am there to meet THEIR needs and be compensated for it. It isn't their fault if I am unwilling/unable to save enough money to be out sick for 5 days. I should have planned better. Yes, I know things happen beyond control, but the average 5 day bout of H1N1 shouldn't send someone spiraling into bankruptcy and homelessness. If the government keeps bailing EVERYONE out, where does personal responsibility and accountability go? Should the government own everything and provide us all of our needs? I'd rather congress didn't get to decide which brand of toilet paper I use LOL! When the government keeps taking rights from businesses, and keeps giving more and more money to "helpful programs" where will we end up? Eventually we will be so dependent on the government for daily needs that we have no choices.
Also consider that this bill isn't saying that you can get sick leave for anything but H1N1. Most areas are only testing those who need to be hospitalized. Lots of people are only calling in to the doctor and getting a tamiflu rx or instructions to stay in bed and drink lots of fluids. Then on top of all of that, you can't just call off sick, you have to be sent home by your employer. Really...what good is it doing anyone?
For me, the biggest issue with the government regulating that employers pay this or that is that it isn't my employers burden to ensure I have my needs met. I am there to meet THEIR needs and be compensated for it. It isn't their fault if I am unwilling/unable to save enough money to be out sick for 5 days. I should have planned better. Yes, I know things happen beyond control, but the average 5 day bout of H1N1 shouldn't send someone spiraling into bankruptcy and homelessness. If the government keeps bailing EVERYONE out, where does personal responsibility and accountability go? Should the government own everything and provide us all of our needs? I'd rather congress didn't get to decide which brand of toilet paper I use LOL! When the government keeps taking rights from businesses, and keeps giving more and more money to "helpful programs" where will we end up? Eventually we will be so dependent on the government for daily needs that we have no choices.
Also consider that this bill isn't saying that you can get sick leave for anything but H1N1. Most areas are only testing those who need to be hospitalized. Lots of people are only calling in to the doctor and getting a tamiflu rx or instructions to stay in bed and drink lots of fluids. Then on top of all of that, you can't just call off sick, you have to be sent home by your employer. Really...what good is it doing anyone?
I don't have time right now to spend on this and yes, it is getting a little off the subject. But NO...capitalism is NOT what got our country into this mess. I don't know how old you are or how long you've lived in this country....in other words, if you experienced what real capitalism even was and how much this country prospered in years past. No, capitalism hasn't been allowed to thrive in recent years on account of just what this an other economists will tell you.
The big issue, as many people have pointed out, is that a LOT of workers do not get paid sick leave. People who are living below or even just above the poverty line literally cannot afford to be sick; they're living paycheck to paycheck and don't have any extra money for savings. And, if they can't afford to be sick, then they come in to work and infect others, and the cycle continues.
I don't want to get into yet another H1N1 debate. Frankly, like Gipsy, I can see the benefit of similar legislation separate and apart from the H1N1 issue. But then we get into the health care reform debate.
In any event, in this as in most "developed" nations, employers do have certain obligations to their employees -- for example, to keep us physically safe. As release has pointed out, there has been much necessary legislation passed to promote worker safety.
I don't want to get into yet another H1N1 debate. Frankly, like Gipsy, I can see the benefit of similar legislation separate and apart from the H1N1 issue. But then we get into the health care reform debate.
In any event, in this as in most "developed" nations, employers do have certain obligations to their employees -- for example, to keep us physically safe. As release has pointed out, there has been much necessary legislation passed to promote worker safety.
The big issue, as many people have pointed out, is that a LOT of workers do not get paid sick leave. People who are living below or even just above the poverty line literally cannot afford to be sick; they're living paycheck to paycheck and don't have any extra money for savings. And, if they can't afford to be sick, then they come in to work and infect others, and the cycle continues.
I don't want to get into yet another H1N1 debate. Frankly, like Gipsy, I can see the benefit of similar legislation separate and apart from the H1N1 issue. But then we get into the health care reform debate.
In any event, in this as in most "developed" nations, employers do have certain obligations to their employees -- for example, to keep us physically safe. As release has pointed out, there has been much necessary legislation passed to promote worker safety.
I don't want to get into yet another H1N1 debate. Frankly, like Gipsy, I can see the benefit of similar legislation separate and apart from the H1N1 issue. But then we get into the health care reform debate.
In any event, in this as in most "developed" nations, employers do have certain obligations to their employees -- for example, to keep us physically safe. As release has pointed out, there has been much necessary legislation passed to promote worker safety.
Also, the bill won't work as intended in the end anyway...employers just won't send people home to avoid paying the 5 legislated days.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on philosophical grounds. My point was primarily that many, many people do not have the ability to "choose" to find a different job -- or to be unpaid if they are sick.
I do agree with you that the legislation is a little odd -- and most likely an overreaction to the H1N1 issue. That said, I really don't understand how this legislation, if it were to be passed (and it sounds like it's far from it at this time), would affect you or your ability to save, your financial independence or your success.
My point was primarily that many, many people do not have the ability to "choose" to find a different job -- or to be unpaid if they are sick.I do agree with you that the legislation is a little odd -- and most likely an overreaction to the H1N1 issue. That said, I really don't understand how this legislation, if it were to be passed (and it sounds like it's far from it at this time), would affect you or your ability to save, your financial independence or your success.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on philosophical grounds. My point was primarily that many, many people do not have the ability to "choose" to find a different job -- or to be unpaid if they are sick.
I do agree with you that the legislation is a little odd -- and most likely an overreaction to the H1N1 issue. That said, I really don't understand how this legislation, if it were to be passed (and it sounds like it's far from it at this time), would affect you or your ability to save, your financial independence or your success.
My point was primarily that many, many people do not have the ability to "choose" to find a different job -- or to be unpaid if they are sick.I do agree with you that the legislation is a little odd -- and most likely an overreaction to the H1N1 issue. That said, I really don't understand how this legislation, if it were to be passed (and it sounds like it's far from it at this time), would affect you or your ability to save, your financial independence or your success.
I *like* hearing other viewpoints and disagreeing*** with them lol! I think we disagree most on people's abilities. I have a ton of faith in people and think that giving hand out after hand out hurts their natural abilities and will to prosper. Legislating give away after give way is what I meant by hindering my success. If the choice is between learning and working for whatever or having it handed to you...most are going to choose the hand out. Eventually, if everything is just handed out, where is the incentive to do more, bigger, better? I really hope you don't think I'm being snarky or anything...I'm enjoying ALL of the viewpoints here and discussing them. I've still got to go back and read the novel Dober posted though
***ETA: That sounds way snotty and I didn't intend that! My meaning was that I was enjoying the back and forth with folks. Everyone is giving me things to think about and learn from and I am hoping no one was offended by me
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I work in a blue collar environment. We get 2 mostly paid sick days per year. I am lucky enough that DH's income makes up for any shortages should I have to take more than my allotted sick time, but most of my coworkers don't have that option. Many of them are older single women, women caring for ill or disabled spouses, or single moms and almost none of them have anything higher than a HS education. Thinking that they can just up and find another job because they don't like the sick day policy is simply not operating in the realm of reality.
The result? People come in sick--all the time. We had some guy vomit at work last year because he came in sick after using his sick days up.
The result? People come in sick--all the time. We had some guy vomit at work last year because he came in sick after using his sick days up.
No capitalism is not the only thing that pushed the markets off the edge last year, there are many factors, all combined into one - but capitlism did IMO play a roll - or still plays a roll as to why we can't seem to regulate the markets.
Globalization has helped that not just the USA, but also countries all over the world were pulled into a economic crisis. By know, all our banks are connected and trading billions of dollars daily. If one bank makes a mistake, it doesn't just harm itself, it harms other banks all over the world.
The whole stock market system complety got blown out of proportion. If companies had less invested in stock with lets say lehman brothers, and invested more into their emplyees for lets say a better healthcare system, like paid sick days, then the wouldn't have lost as much money as they did when x-company/bank what ever they invested in, lost all their money. Had the companies, or private inverstores not been pulled right down with what ever they invested in, then they wouldn't have lost a whole chunk of money. But they did - so the investores lost money. They themselves were forces to liquidate, or fire employees because they were not able to pay them any longer. If enough companies fire their employees, then those emplyees are less likely to spend their money on anything other than nessesties, if that. So now, because we are not able to pay for products, the makers of those products have less income as well, forcing them to lay off emplyees as well - because they too can not afford to pay them anymore. The cut production back and so on. Downword spiral. Yes, thank you, capitalism.
Globalization has helped that not just the USA, but also countries all over the world were pulled into a economic crisis. By know, all our banks are connected and trading billions of dollars daily. If one bank makes a mistake, it doesn't just harm itself, it harms other banks all over the world.
The whole stock market system complety got blown out of proportion. If companies had less invested in stock with lets say lehman brothers, and invested more into their emplyees for lets say a better healthcare system, like paid sick days, then the wouldn't have lost as much money as they did when x-company/bank what ever they invested in, lost all their money. Had the companies, or private inverstores not been pulled right down with what ever they invested in, then they wouldn't have lost a whole chunk of money. But they did - so the investores lost money. They themselves were forces to liquidate, or fire employees because they were not able to pay them any longer. If enough companies fire their employees, then those emplyees are less likely to spend their money on anything other than nessesties, if that. So now, because we are not able to pay for products, the makers of those products have less income as well, forcing them to lay off emplyees as well - because they too can not afford to pay them anymore. The cut production back and so on. Downword spiral. Yes, thank you, capitalism.
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That's totally cool I *like* hearing other viewpoints and disagreeing*** with them lol! I think we disagree most on people's abilities. I have a ton of faith in people and think that giving hand out after hand out hurts their natural abilities and will to prosper. Legislating give away after give way is what I meant by hindering my success. If the choice is between learning and working for whatever or having it handed to you...most are going to choose the hand out. Eventually, if everything is just handed out, where is the incentive to do more, bigger, better?
I really hope you don't think I'm being snarky or anything...I'm enjoying ALL of the viewpoints here and discussing them. I've still got to go back and read the novel Dober posted though
***ETA: That sounds way snotty and I didn't intend that! My meaning was that I was enjoying the back and forth with folks. Everyone is giving me things to think about and learn from and I am hoping no one was offended by me
I *like* hearing other viewpoints and disagreeing*** with them lol! I think we disagree most on people's abilities. I have a ton of faith in people and think that giving hand out after hand out hurts their natural abilities and will to prosper. Legislating give away after give way is what I meant by hindering my success. If the choice is between learning and working for whatever or having it handed to you...most are going to choose the hand out. Eventually, if everything is just handed out, where is the incentive to do more, bigger, better? I really hope you don't think I'm being snarky or anything...I'm enjoying ALL of the viewpoints here and discussing them. I've still got to go back and read the novel Dober posted though
***ETA: That sounds way snotty and I didn't intend that! My meaning was that I was enjoying the back and forth with folks. Everyone is giving me things to think about and learn from and I am hoping no one was offended by me
Like I said, I just think we have different points of view. I don't believe that everyone in this country/the world has an equal ability to be financially "successful," as you seem to. I think Sally's post is a great illustration of this.
Also, the argument that the government mandating sick days (or otherwise providing social services) would cause most people to lose their desire to work hard doesn't really make sense to me. It seems to me that people who are driven (and able) to achieve financial independence would be so even if they were given paid sick days. During the last election, some of my colleagues made a similar argument on a different subject -- that raising their taxes so much would cause them to not want to work as hard. Certainly at a certain point that would be the case, but we are really nowhere near that (and they still willingly work their butts off for their well-paying jobs). I think the slippery slope argument doesn't get us very far here -- having paid sick days really isn't going to make people give up the will to be financially comfortable (however defined) if they are able to be.
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