Field dog training without shock collar?

[GreenFireflyGirl]

I have an eleven month old Pointer, and she is very birdy. I also know a LOT of hunters that want me to train her for field trials, they all say she's a natural. She hasn't been trained to the gun, but for trials I don't think that's a huge concern, though she is sensitive.

I have looked into training, but all the courses use shock collars, and I can't find any other options for training, but really don't like the idea of shocking my dog. Can anyone point me in the right direction, and suggest some good training aids? Would be much appreciated.

 

[Zoom]

Smkie will have some great advice for you, she used to train FT dogs and never once used a shock collar on them.

 

[Doberluv]

I knew a few old timers, my dad's friends who had stupendously trained hunting dogs and they wouldn't have dreamed of using a shock collar. Those dogs were fantastic! I don't quite know where to look for someone because I've never trained a gun dog, but keep researching and see if you can find some old guys that may have trained their dogs in the past when they didn't have shock collars.

 

[Ohm]

Welcome to Dogwise.com

 

[Doberluv]

Ohm! That looks great. I'm glad you put that up for the OP.

 

[smkie]

I trained labradors and golden retrievers not pointers. ALthough i have one and his recall is a hundred percent i never used a shock collar on him. I don't know how to train a pointer for hunting tho. Sorry.

 

[Angelique]

This really is an individual choice...but don't discount a tool until you've fully researched it's correct applications and talked to the professionals who can school you personally.

I was never "anti-ecollar", but was reserved until I was schooled in the use of a good (brand) by a hunter who trained their dogs on recall using them.

I finally used one on Nick with great results, but Tia is far too sensative a dog for this particular tool and already has great recall.

Educate yourself and use your own best judgement without letting others emotionally beat you down for it.

Your dog, your choice. Please let us know what you end up using in your hunter training and how well it works. Your personal experience counts.

 

[GreenFireflyGirl]

Welcome to Dogwise.com

Thanks, looks like a good read!

 

[Zoom]

Why would you automatically jump to using a tool like this when plenty of people have trained amazing dogs without it though?

I'm not wholesale discounting the use of an e-collar, I am just very wary of using one until it's obviously needed...field trialing for fun does not, to me, seem to be one of those occassions.

 

[GreenFireflyGirl]

Why would you automatically jump to using a tool like this when plenty of people have trained amazing dogs without it though?

I'm not wholesale discounting the use of an e-collar, I am just very wary of using one until it's obviously needed...field trialing for fun does not, to me, seem to be one of those occassions.

Are you talking about the clicker training book as the tool that people have trained amazing dogs without, because if you read my op, you would know that I DONT want to use an e-collar, and haven't put my dog in training because I can't find an alternative. I'm not a fan of clicker training either, it makes my dog growl at me, but it's much better than a shock collar.

 

[Romy]

Interesting topic! We're looking into this type of training as well for Charlie. It stands to reason there are ways of teaching these skills without e-collars or even clickers as the breeds have existed much longer than either of those tools.

 

[Zoom]

Are you talking about the clicker training book as the tool that people have trained amazing dogs without, because if you read my op, you would know that I DONT want to use an e-collar, and haven't put my dog in training because I can't find an alternative. I'm not a fan of clicker training either, it makes my dog growl at me, but it's much better than a shock collar.

Sorry, no, actually my reply was to Angelique.

Clickers make your dog growl at you? That's slightly different...you could use verbal cueing (i.e. "yes"!)...clickers are just a (usually) quick and easy way to mark behaviors. There is nothing magic about a clicker itself, it's in the application and timing of using it.

 

[Doberluv]

Yes, a marker signal (a clicker, a word, any sound, anything) can be turned into a conditioned reinforcer (or punisher) when it's paired with a primary reinforcer. (punisher) This concept is old as dirt and proven to be the way all animals learn. Grab the leash=dog gets excited for a walk. There's no inherent value in grabbing the leash, but there is in going for a walk. Open the can of food=dog (or cat) gets happy....dinner time. Opening the can has no value, but the food does. Your alarm clock goes off early in the morning and you go, "ugggggg!" There's nothing so horrible about the alarm clock but it means that you have to get up which you may not want to do. The popsicle man's truck comes around the neighborhood with it's familiar music playing and all the kids come running out to the road. The truck isn't so great in itself and the music is awful. LOL. But the truck means delicious treats are on the way. All these things exist in every animal's day to day life and ARE the way we all learn. There's no need to risk the damaging fall out that shock collars can bring on when you have the tools right there naturally to train a dog. Yes, pain and punishment are also how we learn. It's just that we're walking on thin ice when we mess with a dog's psyche that way. There have been many dogs damaged by their use to varying degrees whether used "correctly" or not. I don't know how shocking a dog can be construed as correct. But yeah, it's everyone's personal choice.

The people I've known with well trained dogs used the concepts described. BTW....clickers (also called toy crickets) I played with when I was a kid...a long time ago. They've actually been around since the days of BF Skinner. He actually recommended their use in training dogs way back then.

If you muffle the sound of the clicker (wrap cotton around it) or get one of those ones with volume control (I have one) or if it's still too loud, use a ball point pen with a little button on top. Pair it...follow the sound with something your dog loves. Do it over and over in one sitting. And I bet the farm that he'll come to love the sound and stop growling at you. UNLESS.....you're clicking when he growls. You may have inadvertently trained in this growling. Make sure there are a few seconds of quiet before clicking.

 

[Angelique]

I think if anyone wants to read all the debates (which often end in locked threads) regarding remote collars, the Chazhound archives are filled with them. But bring your hipwaders...

The only fall-out Nick has experienced from my use of an ecollar is his safety. He now has an excellent recall which will prevent him from ever chasing a deer onto a busy road and getting hit by a car.

But I will still never use a facial contact device on him as I find those to be cruel with plenty of psychological fall-out for many dogs.

Do I want to join a crusade to get facial contact devices banned (along with flexi leads :rofl1? Well, no...To each his own and let your concience be your guide. opcorn:

To the OP,

I hope you can find the training you are looking for.

 

[smkie]

I tried it in desperation with Pepper. I will say it slowed her down initially. BUt it didn't cure the problem and eventually we put it away and went back to old school. IT is the only dog i have ever given it a go with, i followed the video to a t. But it didn't do what eventually worked. Eventually she respected me enough to abide by my wishes is the only way i can think to put it in words. A friend of mine at the guild does use collars on both her pointers and they both hunt. My friend Kelly used one with her coonhound at the off leash park as well with good results. IT is just not my way, and i would not use one again. Would i have gotten there with Pepper without? I will never know for sure. Maybe it was necessary to slow her down in the beginning and that allowed us to follow up with repeated training sessions. Maybe we would have gotten there anyway without.

 

[corgipower]

I would think a hunting dog can be trained the same way as anything else - if you know what the dog needs to do, break it down into smaller pieces and reinforce for correct pieces, then work on putting them together and adding commands.

The only time I've used a shock collar was for serious crittering problems and only after exhausting other methods.

There may be a use for a vibrating (non shocking) or a beeping collar to train as a cue if the dog might be out of hearing range or if you don't want to use a verbal because it'll scare away the birds, but I really don't know.

 

[bradny78]

like all the tools that are available these days in training there is always someone who will argue for or against it.. any tool that u use the right way will be affective.. as far as the e-collar goes I was ver weary at first.. my golden is training for field trials and is extremely submissive as well as sensitive.. I have used the e-collar on her with no problem and she had no problem with it.. If used correctly it is no different than any other correction on a tool like a choke or prong collar.. It is important to find someone who has alot of experience with it and learn from them

 

[sprintime]

I don't discount the e-collars , especially for field training. Our club uses them and also teaches people how to use them properly and I've never witnessed a negative session yet.

 

[Maxy24]

No one is arguing that they don't work, most of us just don't like using pain to train our dogs. Used properly they hurt, otherwise they wouldn't work. If the OP would like to train her dog without hurting him I think it's somewhat saddening that there are people who want to see her use a shock collar instead.

 

[sprintime]

I really don't know what kind of E-collar woukld hurt a dog. The ones our club has does noting more than vibrate annoyingly, much like a cell phone would. I tried one on my arm before considering using it and felt nothing more than static shock less than when I walk across my carpet and touch something. But, to each his own.