Field dog training without shock collar?

[Zoom]

I think it's the fact that field training seems to be one of the things people will AUTOMATICALLY reach for an e-collar to train with, even at the very beginning, whereas anything else (almost) tends to have multiple recommendations first.

Saying you can't train a proper trialing dog without an e-collar is like saying you can't train an agility dog without one either. Both have high levels of drive and distraction in play and yet agility is one of the most clicker-intensive venues around.

 

[Dekka]

I really don't know what kind of E-collar woukld hurt a dog. The ones our club has does noting more than vibrate annoyingly, much like a cell phone would. I tried one on my arm before considering using it and felt nothing more than static shock less than when I walk across my carpet and touch something. But, to each his own.

Try it on a higher setting. They DO hurt. That is why they work. If it was merely annoying most dogs would ignore it when presented with something more fun.

I know people who use them 'properly' and they will tell you up and down there is no fall out and their dogs are just great. But if you watch their dogs work it is sad what is not obvious to them.

Each to their own, but I don't want to scare or hurt my dog into playing games with me (which is what dog sports are) If it was life and death and nothing else had worked I would (and have) used one. Dogs hunted long before remote shock devices were invented. Its just a 'short' cut. I bet a good trainer could do with out it.

 

[release the hounds]

yeah, just a short cut, you should see some of the ways people invented to train dogs before an ecollar. a lot of trainers were more accurate with sling shots than they were with their shotguns.

I think it's the fact that field training seems to be one of the things people will AUTOMATICALLY reach for an e-collar to train with, even at the very beginning, whereas anything else (almost) tends to have multiple recommendations first.

I think it's done for a variety of reasons. For one it is easier for a variety of reasons and you can move on to distance work faster when you can correct them from a distance. Two they're probably going to use one further down the road, so they condition them to it at a young age. 3, people that are using them seem to have a lot of success so others follow what they do.

 

[Dekka]

I did know of someone who was discussing training with out a shock collar for feild trials. Their method wasn't any 'longer' to train for the end result (being competeing) but it did involve a slower start. So that it looked slower to the other club members. BUT once the dog had the basics it progressed VERY rapidly.

I think she trained the end behaviours first and then added distance etc.

Using a shock collar is fine if thats what you want. But it is by no mean necessary. If you can't train a dog to do what it is bred to do without needed to use pain on a regular basis then to me what is the point?

 

[sprintime]

Try it on a higher setting. They DO hurt. That is why they work. If it was merely annoying most dogs would ignore it when presented with something more fun.

I know people who use them 'properly' and they will tell you up and down there is no fall out and their dogs are just great. But if you watch their dogs work it is sad what is not obvious to them.

Each to their own, but I don't want to scare or hurt my dog into playing games with me (which is what dog sports are) If it was life and death and nothing else had worked I would (and have) used one. Dogs hunted long before remote shock devices were invented. Its just a 'short' cut. I bet a good trainer could do with out it.

I did try it first, would never use anything on a dog without testiing first. I had it on the highest setting it had and that's what it felt like - a static shock that wasn't as bad as a static shock from walking on a carpet and touching metal. Some people find them useful, some don't. That's why I said to each his own. If it was a matter of life and death to avert a dog running across a highway then I would choose the collar.
I've just attended an all positive training clinic and found that very useful and fun also. I adapt my training to whatever suits the particular dog at a particular time. No method works for every dog all the time.

 

[Dekka]

I did say that I have used them for life or death. But they work because they hurt. If it doesn't hurt it doesn't work. Maybe your collar is a light one. I tried a tritronic one. After 4 it hurt like H*LL No one could make them selves shock themselves more than once over 8. Even the guys. MUCH worse than a shock from a carpet (that would have been about 3) So to say they don't hurt is silly, maybe your collar is set low.

 

[Romy]

yeah, just a short cut, you should see some of the ways people invented to train dogs before an ecollar. a lot of trainers were more accurate with sling shots than they were with their shotguns.

I think it's done for a variety of reasons. For one it is easier for a variety of reasons and you can move on to distance work faster when you can correct them from a distance. Two they're probably going to use one further down the road, so they condition them to it at a young age. 3, people that are using them seem to have a lot of success so others follow what they do.

Do you have any documentation of people using slingshots to field train gundogs? And I am really, really curious on this one because I can not find any documentation/writings on how to train gun dogs that predates the shock collar era. If you have any sources please let me know where to find them!

When I asked griffon breeders how to train a griffon for hunting they just shrugged and said "They already know. You can teach them to retrieve, but they just know how to hunt already." These are folks who do hunt with their dogs, who do title them in field trials, not just prance them around the ring. I've never owned a gun dog before, but it seems like this is true with Charlie. We take him out in the pasture/beach and he points every duck, quail, goose, coot, grouse, etc. he can find. He retrieves like a madman, which we never taught.

I'm really ignorant though, what exactly do you teach a dog for field trials? Go left and right on command? Bring back the dead bird instead of eating it? Recall?

It almost seems like maybe most gun dog breeds were like the griffon in terms of drive and innate working ability back in the days of yore. A dog that folks had a hard time training wouldn't have been bred, and probably would have been plain old culled. Today we have a lot of popular gun dog breeds who are generations removed from the field, so it makes sense that there would be a lot more individuals who needed more human guidance to do what they were originally bred for. Griffons are still rare and the club puts a huge emphasis on proven working ability in breeders, and in France they are judged on a working standard.

Sorry for the rambling post, just pondering and looking for answers.

 

[release the hounds]

nothing written, just talking with old timers. It's nothing they brag about, but it's one of those things that comes up when they talk about "old tricks"

I think if actually have an old German text translated into English that shows a picture of a sling shot as a training tool, I definitely need to look that up when I get home tonight, but it isn't a gun dog book specifically.

I don't think the "new" dogs necessarily need more humane guidance today as people just put in less time. Before if you depended on your dogs they went with you everywhere and people knew how to read their dogs and the dogs knew how to read their people. Because of cultural changes people just don't do that anymore a lot of times. I should say I don't think the good dogs of yester year were any better than good dogs of today in terms of drive and ability.

I do agree that more people probably spend more time with lessor dogs today because that is what they have to work with and they don't depend on it for living so they still provide for it and work with it rather than the alternative.

and dogs can already do any of the things we ask them. They know how to sit, stand, and walk. They know how to retrieve and run around and jump. They know how to bite they know how to find things with their noses. They know all that stuff. We just have to put it on cue