EVO to puppy?

pup-man

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#1
I'd like to feed my puppy Innova EVO. She is a 5 month old toy poodle who weights in at a whopping 3lbs. Will there be any side effects to feeding EVO to her?

I'm just concerned because of the amount of Potatoes in EVO. The bag is soooo misleading "The alternative when you can't feed raw" .... half of the bag consist of potatoes????:confused:
 
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#2
For a small-breed puppy, you can feed Innova EVO. It is not half potatoes, as far as I know. Here are the first few ingredients...
Turkey, Chicken, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Herring Meal, Chicken Fat
 

Zoom

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#4
I think some other super-premium companies are coming out with their versions, but EVO really is the best out there.

I'm a little confused as to how you arrived at the "half the bag is potatos" conclusion?
 

pup-man

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#5
I don't know the exact percentages but do know about half of their EVO food formula consist of potatoes.
 

Giny

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#6
I feed both my Toy Poodles Evo and they are doing great on it. Mind you they aren't pups but I've heard that toy breed puppies do great on it. Both mine have been on it for quite a while, over a year for sure. It states on the bag that it's a low carb diet so I'm not sure where you got that it's loaded full of potatoes. There is potates listed in their ingredients but it's listed as the #5 ingredient.
 

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#7
pup-man said:
I don't know the exact percentages but do know about half of their EVO food formula consist of potatoes.
HOW do you know this? Placement of the ingredient on the list? A little bird told you? 42% protein does not allow for half the bag to be a single starch.

Guaranteed Analysis
Protein: 42%
Fat: 22%
Fiber: 2.5%
Moisture: 10%
[Carbohydrates: 12%]
 

pup-man

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#8
The amount of meat in the formula is a lot higher than the amount listed on the percentages section of the label, because the percent of meat in the formula and the percent of protein are two totally different calculations.

Try calling Natura and ask them. They refuse to tell you how much of the EVO food formula consist of potatoes.... but you can call "other" high end products and they would be more than happy to tell you.
 

Mordy

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#9
It is true that the protein percentage alone doesn't tell much about the meat content of a food, but logic can take us quite a bit further here.

Let's start out by looking at the ingredients of Evo:

Main ingredients:
Turkey, Chicken, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Herring Meal, Chicken Fat

Ingredients present in lesser amounts:
Natural Flavors, Egg, Garlic, Apples, Carrots, Tomatoes, Cottage Cheese, Alfalfa Sprouts, Dried Chicory Root, Taurine, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract, Vitamins/Minerals, Viable Naturally Occurring Microorganisms

Nutrient content: (I converted this to dry matter basis (DMB, 0% moisture), for a fair comparison
Protein 46.67%, Fat 24.44%, Carbohydrates 13.33%, Fiber 2.78%, Ash 13.75%

What does all this tell us?

The first thing that stands out is that the food has a fairly high ash content - as a basis for comparison, most commercial foods contain around 7-8%. Now just what exactly is ash? It's the inorganic mineral residue that remains after burning a sample of the foodstuff in question under laboratory conditions. Animal tissues (especially bone and cartilage) have a much higher mineral content than plant matter, so a food higher in meat will have a higher ash percentage than one that derives much of its protein content from plant sources like for example corn gluten - especially if the whole animal including bones is used, as is common for making chicken and turkey meal.

Next, let's look at the nutrient content of potatoes, chicken and turkey (also DMB). Since I only have data for boneless meat on hand, I can't break down meat meals that include bones and cartilage (which are the items that increase the ash content), but you will still see the correlation.

Potatoes (white):
Protein 9.44%, Fat 0.56%, Carbohydrates 87.22%, Fiber 13.33%, Ash 5%

Chicken (light and dark meat combined):
Protein 87.35%, Fat 12.65%, Carbohydrates/Fiber 0%, Ash 4.08%

Turkey (light and dark meat combined):
Protein 84.5%, Fat 11.24%, Carbohydrates/Fiber 0%, Ash 3.88%

Now if I combine for example 50 pounds of potato, 25 pounds of chicken meat and 25 pounds of turkey meat (a 50/50 ratio of potato to meat) and then dehydrate the whole mixture to a 0% moisture content, it would look something like this:
Protein 53.21%, Fat 6.88%, Carbohydrates 36.24%, Fiber 5.5%, Ash 4.59%

Go play with the ratios and see how close you can come to around 46% protein and 13% carbs on a dry matter basis by including varying amounts of meat and potatoes and compare it to my "half and half" calculation above.
 

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#10
The carb percent has nothing to do with the percentage of potato that makes up the recipe.

Example: A potato is 100% potato. On a bag of potatoes, it says "carbohydrate 9%"

Potato, starch and grain are FOODS. Carbohydrates are macronutrients.
The foods do contain carbs but the terms starch/grain and carbohydrate are not interchangeable.

What I want to know from the company is what percentage of their food recipe is potato? Not the amount of carbs or protein, not what percentage of protein is derived from carbs or meat. No, just simply, how much of what is in that bag is potato?
And by the way, potatoes also contain protein and fiber and may be listed as such according to those percentages you’re seeing on the bag.

One more example- Timberwolf Organics Lamb, Barley and Apples formula “has over 10 lbs of lamb and fish meal for every 20 lbs of dog food.” In other words, about 50% of the recipe for that formula consists of meats. (and 50% is grains with supplements)
The protein for that formula is listed as: 28%.
Yes, even though the formula consists of 50% MEATS, it has 28% crude protein.


The amount of meat in the formula is a lot higher than the amount listed on the percentages section of the label, because the percent of meat in the formula and the percent of protein are two totally different calculations.

I guess we’ll never know about EVO, since they are being evasive. Besides, even if the food was held together by magic and contained no starch at all, I think that all of that cooked protein is stressful on even a healthy dog’s kidneys. Raw is completely different and they have no right selling their product as something you should feed “When you can’t feed raw”

Heck, I could feed my dogs old shoes to chew when I “can’t feed raw”. What a stupid claim. I just hate marketing gimmicks.
 

Mordy

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#11
The carb percent has nothing to do with the percentage of potato that makes up the recipe.
Of course it does. Carbohydrates are a plant based substance and you can't magically create a food with a low carb content by including a high amount of carbs. Any food can only be broken down into so many components and in the end it all has to add up to 100%.

Potato, starch and grain are FOODS. Carbohydrates are macronutrients. The foods do contain carbs but the terms starch/grain and carbohydrate are not interchangeable.
No, they are not interchangeable, and I never said it was. But it happens to be the case that
(a) a potato is naturally high in starch (as are grains)
(b) starch is a combination of two polymeric carbohydrates (amylose and amylopectin) which is present in large amounts in starchy vegetables and grains
(c) fiber is made up of complex carbs that are not broken down completely and digested, that's why I listed both numbers separately in my calculations above.

And by the way, potatoes also contain protein and fiber and may be listed as such according to those percentages you’re seeing on the bag.
I guess you didn't read my post above at all, or you'd have seen that I listed protein, fiber and fat percentages as well as carbs. The fact remains that it still all has to add up.

The amount of meat in the formula is a lot higher than the amount listed on the percentages section of the label, because the percent of meat in the formula and the percent of protein are two totally different calculations.
If you are talking about the protein percentage given in the guaranteed analysis, yes, that's crude protein and there is no differentiation between plant based or meat based proteins. What you also need to know is that "crude protein" means the content regardless of quality or digestibility, meaning for example you could have a food that lists 30% protein that is 60% digestible, or one that contains 25% that's 80% digestible.

The protein percentage in the guaranteed analysis has absolutely nothing to do with the meat content of a food at all, so a food could contain either more or less meat in total than it lists protein - but the amount doesn't necessarily have to be higher. The fact still remains that a food that is very high in meat can't at the same time be high in carbs.

Let's take your example of the TWO Lamb Barley and Apple formula. On a dry matter basis, this food contains 30.77% protein, 19.78% fat and 7.58% ash, leaving you with around 41% carbohydrates, of which 3.3% are fiber and the rest is nitrogen-free extract (sugars and starches).

Besides, even if the food was held together by magic and contained no starch at all, I think that all of that cooked protein is stressful on even a healthy dog’s kidneys.
Nope. Protein itself isn't stressful for the kidneys, it just requires more moisture to process than carbs. :)

I'm not going to comment on the "marketing gimmicks", since I don't know of a single company that doesn't employ any - which makes the argument entirely pointless.

I'll leave you with one closing thought tho - I have less of a problem with a company protecting some proprietary information of a food formula than with one who can't outright answer a question about where their food is manufactured.
 

vanillasugar

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#12
Mordy has done an excellent job on this as usual, but I have a question for pup-man...

Why are you interested in feeding EVO to your dog if you're so convinced that it's a bad food? I mean you're arguing pretty hard against it's quality here, and seem convinced that the company is covering something up, so why feed the food?
 
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#13
I can say one thing with surety . . . playing percentages against Mordy is a sure loser, lol! You've got better odds of winning against the house in Vegas than of having a better grasp of dog food composition and nutrition than she does :D
 

kitcatak

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#14
Mordy said:
Nope. Protein itself isn't stressful for the kidneys, it just requires more moisture to process than carbs.
Could you please help me with this? I am constantly hearing from "dog" people that you want a low protein percentage (21% is used) in a kibble. I have heard you (Mordy) say foods like Evo are great foods and that the high protein is actually a good thing. My instincts say to believe Mordy (I don't know why, these are very knowledgable people also), but I don't understand it enough to explain to them that the percentage alone doesn't determine the quality. Also, they state that high protein levels "burn" their dogs coats. Is this due to the protein? In this instance they were referring to Canidae which has a lower level of protein. They also claimed UTI's in their dogs. I want what is best for Leo, but I guess I just don't GET this! Sorry to be such a pain.
 

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#15
Unfortunately the whole protein thing is not easily explained in just a few sentences, so bear with me if I ramble on for a while. :D I'll try to keep it as simple and straightforward as possible without going too much into scientific terms.

First of all it is important that we understand that protein isn't only a nutrient - the amino acids it is made up of (think lego bricks forming a bigger structure) also serve as building blocks for body tissues, organs, enzymes, hormones, antibodies and so on - roughly half of the dry body mass of a dog consists of protein. Knowing this it is easy to understand that growing puppies need protein to build above mentioned body tissues, organs, enzymes, hormones, antibodies and both adults and growing puppies constantly need to replace and rebuild these as well. The body recycles amino acids to some extent, but part of them need to be replaced, just like you can't endlessly recycle paper or plastic.

Protein is processed in the liver and any waste materials are filtered and excreted by the kidneys. High quality protein does not generate large amounts of waste that needs to be removed from the body, but poor quality protein which is difficult to digest does and thus puts stress on the kidneys. The liver needs water to process protein and as a medium to carry waste products to the kidneys, where they are filtered out and most of the water is reabsorbed. The less concentrated the waste products in this primary filtrate are, the easier it is for the kidneys to do their filtering work, that is why it is so unhealthy to feed dry food only and so critical that dogs eating mostly or exclusively dry food and dogs with liver disease get lots of extra water. Dogs who eat mostly canned food or a home prepared diet automatically take in more moisture and do not need to compensate as much by drinking. Contrary to what many people think, dogs (and cats) do not know instinctively how much extra water they have to drink to make up for what is lacking in the dry food. This is why I so highly recommend that people always add water to the kibble at feeding time.

Now that we have the basics laid out, we can return to the protein in the food. Many people cite old, outdated research that claims high protein percentages in the food are harmful to dogs and do all kinds of damage, especially to the liver. Fact is that these studies were conducted by feeding dogs foods that were made from poor quality, hard to digest protein sources, such as soy, corn, byproducts, blood meal and so on. From my explanation above, you now already know that it is a question of protein quality that affects the kidneys. Consider a wolf in the wild, who will eat relatively little else but meat if they can help it - these animals don't get kidney diseases. Their protein comes in the form of quality muscle and organ meat though, not processed leftovers from human food processing. It also contains around 70% moisture, whereas most commercial dry foods contain a maximum of 10%. Dogs and other "dog like" animals (canids) evolved eating a diet that consists primarily of meat, fat and bones, which they have been eating for hundreds of thousands of years. Commercial foods, especially dry food, has only been widely available for the past 60 years and we are still learning how much damage certain aspects of it can do. Things have improved quite a bit from hitting rock bottom in the 70s and 80s, but the majority of pet food manufacturers still produce bad foods from poor quality ingredients.

Just to digress for a moment, when I went to the grocery store to pick up bottled water today, I saw that Purina Dog Chow was on sale, $8 for a 22 pound bag. That's a little over 36 cents per pound, including the profit the supermarket makes on it, cost for the pretty, colorful packaging and all. On top of that, of course the manufacturer (Nestle/Purina) wants to make a profit too. How much do you think the food actually costs them just to make, without any profits? The answer is pennies per pound, which also reflects the ingredient quality. If I calculate a 40% profit margin for each the supermarket and the manufacturer, it comes to about 13 cents per pound. That's $260 per ton.

Anyway, back to the protein. Protein in dog food can come from either plant or meat sources. Logically, plant sources are cheaper, especially considering that corn gluten meal, the most popular, cheap protein booster, is a byproduct of the human food processing industry, left over from making corn starch and corn syrup. It has a crude protein content of 60%, so theoretically even if your food recipe contained no other protein sources at all, you could make a food with a 20% crude protein content by mixing it 1:2 with some cheap carb source.

It is critical to stress that the term "crude protein" is used in the guaranteed analysis, which means there is no statement whatsoever as to its digestibility. Protein comes in many forms, even shoe leather, chicken feathers or cow hooves have a fairly high crude protein content, but the body is only able to extract and process very little of it, at the price of a lot of work and stress to do so.

Due to this labeling issue (only one of many, many others), the percentage of protein in a food by itself doesn't say anything at all. Ingredient lists are not 100% straightforward and truthful either, but at least you can somewhat gauge if there's even any quality protein in there at all.

Just to illustrate once again by example, let's say we have two foods who have the same percentages of protein, fat, carbohydrates, fiber and moisture. Food A contains 25% protein that is 60% digestible and food B contains 25% protein that is 85% digestible. That means of food A the body is able to utilize 15% of the protein, but of food B 21.25%. Logically, to meet the body's requirement of protein, you'd have to feed more of food A than of food B, and the body of the dog eating food B will have to work less to utilize it.

I guess in really simple terms you can compare it to the engine of a car and the type of fuel you use. Just because you use high octane gas in a car that doesn't need it, it's not going to do any damage, but if you use poor quality fuel, regardless whether it is high or low octane, there will be buildup in the engine that hampers performance and will eventually lead to damage.

I hope this helps, If I was unclear on any parts, please do let me know.
 

CLee

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#16
i didnt ask the question but i had the same worries so thanks mordy and thanks kitcatak for asking the question.

mordy, how much water do you suggest adding to the kibble? should it end up being like a soupy mixture, a mushy kibble, or just a semi-moist kibble or like a light spray of water over top? how much is sufficient?

and how do you know if something is high-quality meat protein sources? is it as long as its muscle and organ meat? or does it also have to be "human-grade", "organic", "table-quality" and other words I've heard pet food industries use?

thanks.
 

Mordy

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#20
I would add at least half a cup of water per cup of kibble. Don't soak it for extended periods of time, just put the kibble in the dish, add the water (room temperature or slightly warm, not hot) and serve.

Foods with quality meat sources don't contain a lot of corn gluten or any sort of byproduct. You want to see meats and meat meals that are specifically named (e.g. chicken meal or turkey meal, not poultry byproduct meal, salmon meal instead of fish meal and so on). More information here:
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=betterproducts

The problem with many terms like "human grade" and "table quality" is that they are not legally defined, so you can't rely on them to always be accurate. Organic is a different story, you can learn about that here:
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=organic
 

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