double merel sheltie, bred to another blue merel?

[dogsarebetter]

In the hopefully very very distant future when I lose one of my shelties I would like to rescue an almost completely white sheltie. I see them on petfinder often because puppy mills breed them to sell them. they call them "rare!" and of course those puppy mills eventually get raided and all the dogs taken away.

What can I expect to all be wrong with a white sheltie?
I'd assume it would be deaf, and/or blind. Also have allergies and maybe an immune system disorder?

 

[Beanie]

A double merle is the "lethal white." Blue merle bred to blue merle has a 25% chance of producing the double merle.

Deafness and blindness are your most likely issues with a double merle. Skin problems are pretty likely too. And if it's a puppy mill sheltie you can expect a host of other issues. Extreme shyness, reactivity issues, extreme barkiness for a sheltie (and deafness can compound that), hip problems, potential elbow problems though you'll see poor hips more often.
I wouldn't be surprised to see immune diseases and heart problems as well, not just because of the double merle, but because of the puppy mill background. Eye problems are in the same field - even if you didn't have the double merle to contend with, shelties can have CEA and PRA. Eliminate the health testing and any concern for general health (like puppy mills have) and your odds for those increase a lot.

 

[dogsarebetter]

Thanks Beanie. Sounds like a possible handful!
I want a white sheltie.... but of course I would never support that. So I will have to rescue from probably a puppy mill situation.
Maybe I can find a reputable breeder that had an oops litter between two blues.

 

[YodelDogs]

Although it is not an approved color in the AKC breed standard, Shelties can come in a color pattern called color-headed whites. These dogs are predominantly white but they do not have any of the health problems associated with double merles.

Here's a picture of a group of these Shelties.

White Sheltand Sheepdog Association

And scroll down this page to see more pics.

Shetland Sheepdog Coat Colors and Information

 

[Boemy]

Are those color-headed whites genetically double-merles or something else?

When I was looking at sheltie breeder websites I came across a breeder who had been showing/breeding for many decades and had tracked instances of double-merle breeding and come to the conclusion that a double-merle puppy with colored ears/face were just as likely to be deaf/blind as ones without color on their ears/face, and vice versa. Basically a 1/4 chance of problems for any given pup.

 

[Beanie]

A colour-headed white doesn't have the merling gene (or rather, likely doesn't - of course they can have one copy of the recessive merle gene.) They are white because of the predominance of white factoring - their white "markings," in other words, are very heavy, so the dog is white. So nope, they wouldn't have the health issues associated with the double merle!

The way merling affects coat colour is pretty random, so the look of the coat is secondary to the actual genetic affects of double merle genes. Some people claim that coloured patches over eyes or ears will "prevent" a dog from being blind or deaf, but I personally don't believe that. So yeah, I would agree with that breeder's findings that a dog with double merling is a dog with double merling - regardless of the actual physical look of the dog and where the "white" appears on the dog, it's the genetics that are the issue, not the appearance of the fur itself.

 

[Boemy]

Are they like . . . sables who just have a ton of white? Or something genetically distinct from any other color patterns? Very pretty dogs!

 

[dogsarebetter]

I still like the solid white ones better. But I am not sure if I could handle the problems that may come. As far as behavior issues, we could work around that, im sure. But financially, I cannot have a very unhealthy dog that will cost loads in vet bills. I am sure pet insurance would not cover them.

Like I said before, hopefully it's 11 years from now before I have to worry about getting another dog. but you just never know!

 

[Beanie]

It's any colour sheltie with a predominance of white markings. You can technically even have a blue headed white rather than a double merle who just happens to have a coloured head.

Markings are genetic to an extent - Auggie has a distinct marking that his dad has, and another pup in a litter sired by his dad (but different mom obviously) has the same marking, for example, so it's pretty clear that particular markings CAN be passed on. But to what extent they are genetic, to what extent a white factored dog can produce a colour-headed white, isn't exactly clear.

Ahhh the fun of genetics!

 

[Romy]

I still like the solid white ones better. But I am not sure if I could handle the problems that may come. As far as behavior issues, we could work around that, im sure. But financially, I cannot have a very unhealthy dog that will cost loads in vet bills. I am sure pet insurance would not cover them.

Like I said before, hopefully it's 11 years from now before I have to worry about getting another dog. but you just never know!

If you are getting an adult through rescue, there is a good chance you can find the right dog without millions of health problems.

Not every single double merle is going to be deaf and/or blind. It is entirely reasonable to expect you could find a byb or puppymill double merle that isn't deaf or blind, or may be only deaf/blind in one eye or ear. And while the chances of getting a 100% healthy sheltie through rescue isn't the best, I would think that if you spent time waiting for the right dog you could end up with one that has a reasonably stable temperament and okay health.

 

[dogsarebetter]

I was even thinking about getting a sheltiepoo (half sheltie half poodle)
but of course I would never get one from a breeder. Rescue only!

I admit I love designer dogs, and white dogs that are not supposed to be white. but at least i do know not to support those breeding practices. If only I could convince some of my clients to check shelters for their shihpoos, malteipoos, white boxers, white German shepherds, etc!

 

[Beanie]

If you are getting an adult through rescue, there is a good chance you can find the right dog without millions of health problems.

Not every single double merle is going to be deaf and/or blind. It is entirely reasonable to expect you could find a byb or puppymill double merle that isn't deaf or blind, or may be only deaf/blind in one eye or ear. And while the chances of getting a 100% healthy sheltie through rescue isn't the best, I would think that if you spent time waiting for the right dog you could end up with one that has a reasonably stable temperament and okay health.

Agreed. There are certainly healthy dogs with good temperaments in rescue. It's just a matter of finding the right one... definitely can be a waiting game.


Also, I can tell you right now that if you contacted any sheltie rescue that I am aware of, they will not only be disgusted that you want a white sheltie just because you like white dogs, but they won't adopt ANY dog out to you - white or not. Asking about a particular dog can be frowned on - asking about a particular dog because of the COLOUR of the dog is likely to get you hung up on or your e-mails deleted.

 

[Zoom]

Wow, that's a bit harsh? I know at least with Aussie rescue, they ask you if you have a color/gender preference and how important that is. They tend to look favorably upon those looking for the lethal whites, because of all the health issues that tend to accumulate with that coloration. I mean, I can see sheltie rescue's point, but at the same time...

DAB: Petfinder.com Lots of white dogs on there.

 

[MafiaPrincess]

Don't think I'd care to play with sheltie rescue. I'm not stuck on dog colour as it's less important then health and temperament.. but I still have preferences for almost any breed that comes in an array of colours.

I'd think anyone with a preference towards dogs who might be special needs would be wanted by rescues, not scorned.

 

[Beanie]

There's been a number of threads on here about if rescues are too picky and I know a lot of people think they are. Like not adopting to people with fenced in yards, or to people who live in apartments, or the fact that somebody rents is considered a bad thing by a rescue... harsh, maybe; too picky, maybe - but regardless, that's how a lot of them are.

ETA: Yes, somebody who is willing to take a dog with special needs is celebrated. Somebody who wants a white dog but specifically not one with health problems, on the other hand, is going to be viewed by a rescue a lot differently.

 

[SCALLOPED91]

My white sheltie

I had the privilege to spend twelve years of my life with a solid white sheltie. He was the most wonderful and most beautiful Dog in the world. They are not for everyone, and if you are not prepared to spend alot of time with them, dont do it.I got him from a breeder not a rescue, and I had to interview with her three times before I could even see him.
Mine was deaf, and had very poor vision. We taught him sign language, to potty train. He didnt bark for a long time,I wasn't sure he could, and when he did. It sounded like a bicycle horn. but I didnt have a problem with him barking all the time. He barked just like every other puppy, when you played with him. He did have problems with his eyes,They were a clear blue and beings that they have no pigment, so we saw a doggy ophthalmologist. He was very loving,not shy at all. But other dogs seem to know something was different.
Its not at all like just getting a new puppy, so if you wouldn't adopt a special needs child I would pass.If you can the rewards you get will outweigh any obstacles. For me and my family, We wouldnt have it any other way. Edgar has been the biggest blessing you could have.

 

[D'tailsDogGrooming]

Double merle shelties can be invaluable to a breeding program and "back in the day" were a common breeding only dog in many reputable breeder's kennels. If you look into it more there are several kennels who have had perfectly healthy doubles in their breeding program and you may even find out that is ready to retire. Good luck with your eventual search! I'd love to have a double too, though I know I could not handle any sight issues (deafness is easier to overcome to me). If I find any breeders with oops litters or retired breeders I'll let you know. It also may be more common than people think to get a double merle since some dogs can be "cryptic merles", and you have no idea you're breeding merle to merle until its too late.

 

[Spiritwind]

The sheltie that was BOB at Westminster (and the sheltie that was BOS at Westminster) is bred and owned by this kennel -- Shadow Hill Kennel

They are in NC, about an hour from me. I have been to their kennel before. They have had or do have some double dilutes. Was last at the kennel summer 2008.

While I personally wouldn't want to deal with a double dilute, their dogs do EVERYTHING.. show and performance, they have a full agility course set up in one of their fields.

Check out Shadow Hill's Polaris, on the males page, he is a double dilute.

 

[Laurelin]

Personally I don't care how nice your dogs are it's still irresponsible. The ONLY reason double merles are considered 'valuable' to a breeding program is because they throw flashy colored pups. There is no way the risks are worth the benefits. Color is not that important, sorry.

 

[Spiritwind]

I'm not going to debate whether it's right or wrong... I've been to the kennel once, a couple summers ago. I went with a friend of mine.

I don't have shelties, nor do I ever plan to own any.... I personally wouldn't breed merle to merle in my Collies... but what another breeder does, as long as they take care of the dogs, and are responsible for them, I'm not going to judge...

On a side note.. you certainly don't need a double merle to get flashy markings....