double merel sheltie, bred to another blue merel?

[Dekka]

I'm not going to debate whether it's right or wrong... I've been to the kennel once, a couple summers ago. I went with a friend of mine.

I don't have shelties, nor do I ever plan to own any.... I personally wouldn't breed merle to merle in my Collies... but what another breeder does, as long as they take care of the dogs, and are responsible for them, I'm not going to judge...

On a side note.. you certainly don't need a double merle to get flashy markings....

But if it hurts dogs why won't you judge? I mean its nice to be fair and all. But just cause I don't own a particular breed doesn't absolve others for doing things wrong. Taken to its extreme.. should I not care about about what happened to those english mastiffs as I don't own one, and never will.

If someone's breeding practices is going to produce dogs that will suffer health issues (Not MIGHT but WILL) that that to me makes them a 'bad breeder' Merle x merle breedings will result in ~25% white pups, which themselves have a high risk of being blind or deaf or both. How on earth is that made up for by having an agility field (um I have an agility field, LC equip, race equip, gtg equip, all the stuff for an obed trial.. does that mean I can start breeding badly and it will be ok.. how many bad things will be cancelled out by the fact my dogs to pretty much everything possible.. except flyball)

 

[Laurelin]

Personally it's something I feel strongly about even though I have been out of shelties a while (my last sheltie passed away this past summer) and I will likely only rescue when/if I ever plan on having them again. To me it is a deal breaker, a clear indication that my ideas of proper breeding do not line up with a breeder's.

 

[Laurelin]

I guess I should clarify, I HATE what modern breeding is doing to this breed that I love and merle x merle really epitomizes that for me. The only reason to do it is for markings which you're right you can get flashy merles without the merle x merle risk. But markings and looks shouldn't make the sheltie but nowadays they pretty much do in the eyes of many sheltie people. Hence a large reason I probably won't ever purchase a sheltie again. It is saddening to me that it was a lot easier for me to find a companion breed dog from a performance background than a breed that was and should be primarily a working dog.

I have yet to see a legitimate reason for crossing merle x merle in this breed. Producing a stud that only throws merles is not a legitimate reason.

 

[Spiritwind]

But if it hurts dogs why won't you judge? I mean its nice to be fair and all. But just cause I don't own a particular breed doesn't absolve others for doing things wrong. Taken to its extreme.. should I not care about about what happened to those english mastiffs as I don't own one, and never will.

If someone's breeding practices is going to produce dogs that will suffer health issues (Not MIGHT but WILL) that that to me makes them a 'bad breeder' Merle x merle breedings will result in ~25% white pups, which themselves have a high risk of being blind or deaf or both. How on earth is that made up for by having an agility field (um I have an agility field, LC equip, race equip, gtg equip, all the stuff for an obed trial.. does that mean I can start breeding badly and it will be ok.. how many bad things will be cancelled out by the fact my dogs to pretty much everything possible.. except flyball)

Ok.. first of all, me not owning a particular breed has nothing to do with what I think about a person... This is not the reason I said I wasn't going to judge the person... and it's not that they WILL have health issues, it is that they MIGHT. Not that I am saying that means you should risk it, like I said I wouldn't do it with my collies..but Not all double merles have issues...

I do know OF other double merles (collies and shelties) from other breeders around the country. Some of the breeders I have personally talked to, most I have not.. All of them from what I have hear from different breeders, are healthy, active, normal dogs. What I mean, is if you choose to do a merle to merle breeding and are responsible for the dog, and don't pass it off to some unsuspecting pet home, if you are willing to be responsible for that dog, for it's entire life, then I'm not going to slam the breeder for doing it..

second I never said having agility field made up for having a double dilute. Try not to twist my words thank you... I just meant that her dogs aren't just running around a conformation ring.... you can take it as you like.

 

[Laurelin]

I do know OF other double merles (collies and shelties) from other breeders around the country. Some of the breeders I have personally talked to, most I have not.. All of them from what I have hear from different breeders, are healthy, active, normal dogs. What I mean, is if you choose to do a merle to merle breeding and are responsible for the dog, and don't pass it off to some unsuspecting pet home, if you are willing to be responsible for that dog, for it's entire life, then I'm not going to slam the breeder for doing it..

Why not though? Why risk having the pup come out deaf or blind or both? To me once you start placing color over health you stop being a responsible breeder. There is no need to have deaf or blind puppies from a merle to merle breeding. It is something that is 100% preventable unlike many other issues.

 

[FoxyWench]

for those that agree with merle to merle breeding...all i can say is you have obviously never been "blessed" by the sight of a puppy born with no eyes at all...

to me i guess i see it as...
sure it MIGHT end up ok breeding a merle to a merel, infact you may even end up with some nice dogs who do well at a number of things...BUT is it realy worth the REAL risks when you can get just as great a dog by NOT breeding amerle to a merle...
ive ye tto meet a double merle who doesnt have at least some kind of health issue.
most have at the very least PARTIAL hearing or sight loss...(which most dont test for PARTIAL loss...)

now for someone who thinks they look stunning and is interested in ADOPTING one from a rescue or something, who is also willing to deal if there are any health issues ontop then sure, im all for those dogs finding great homes...

but to breed purposly simply because "well i did it once and the pups wernt deformed" is just horrible! is it REALY worth the risk...

ive delivered patrially formed puppies and pups with no eyes form a merle to merle...NEVER EVER EVER would i EVER say the practice is EVER ok! they were not my dogs, a freind decided to do so then needed help last minute, out of 6 puppies live 5 were born with issues and of those 5 only one survived apst a few weeks.
and for me...no RESPONSIBLE breeder who TRULY cared about their dogs would find the high risk worth it when theres just as nice dogs out there without doubling the gene...

back on topic...

if your realy want a white one, and your ok with the potential health concerns (blind dogs are harder to train than deaf ones...) then i say go for it.

eye and ear issues are the big ones, skin and allergies tend to be very common too...
ive raised a couple of deaf dogs in my life from bad choices (harle to harl dane breedng commonly has the same issues as merle to merle) and they made WONDERFULL pets, i just couldnt support anyone breeding doubles on purpose ...

 

[Dekka]

No its a WILL not a might. If you flip two coins often enough you WILL get double tails. (as a breeding practise.. you do it once you might get lucky) How can you condone a breeding practise where you stack the odds in favour of producing deaf and blind puppies?

Does this breeder cull at birth? How is the suffering of ONE puppy from something so preventable mean nothing, esp when we are only talking about producing a flashy colour (which can be produced in other ways)

Laur is right, this isn't even about improving the breed, its about producing a pretty colour. This doesnt' help the health, temperament, or working ability of the breed. Even for modern standards. I merle dog is not going to be a faster agility dog, a more accurate obedience dog or a better pet.

To me, the ends to not justify the means.

 

[Spiritwind]

Why not though? Why risk having the pup come out deaf or blind or both? To me once you start placing color over health you stop being a responsible breeder. There is no need to have deaf or blind puppies from a merle to merle breeding. It is something that is 100% preventable unlike many other issues.

I'm not really sure what you want me to say here. How many times do I have to say I personally wouldn't do merle x merle. Unfortunately not everyone thinks that way. I can't control what other breeders do.

Me saying "I hate that breeder because she did merle x merle"... wow.. that did a lot of good!.. I'm sure that will make them stop..

I'm not buying dogs from this person, I'm not suggesting anyone else buy dogs from this person. Aside from being at the kennel once, and seeing her around at shows on occasion, I do not know her... I just happened to see the thread and it was right after Westminster so I thought I'd post.. apparently I shouldn't have.

for those that agree with merle to merle breeding...all i can say is you have obviously never been "blessed" by the sight of a puppy born with no eyes at all...

Again, I don't believe I said I agreed with it. How many times now have I said I wouldn't doing this type of breeding??

No its a WILL not a might. If you flip two coins often enough you WILL get double tails. (as a breeding practise.. you do it once you might get lucky) How can you condone a breeding practise where you stack the odds in favour of producing deaf and blind puppies?

Your right.. if you do it over and over again, you will probably get some health issues.. however, to my knowledge this type of breeding isn't something breeders do ALL the time... I could be wrong, maybe some breeders do merle to merle all the time. I have no idea.

Actually I do know of one smooth collie double dilute that is deaf and blind, but he is not the result of a irresponsible breeder, rather a handler screw up.. the mother was a smooth blue merle, at a handlers being shown... the same time a rough sable merle male was being shown by the same handler... male escaped his kennel, and got into the bitchs pen... the result -- a "rainbow" litter that included one double merle.

Does this breeder cull at birth? How is the suffering of ONE puppy from something so preventable mean nothing, esp when we are only talking about producing a flashy colour (which can be produced in other ways)

I have no idea.. as I have said before, other than being at the kennel ONCE 2 summers ago, I don't know this person. I don't know what her breeding practices are, I don't know what she does with puppies at birth..

And yes, I believe I also already stated that you could get flashy markings without double merles. My Collies typically have very flashy markings (large, full collars, white legs..etc..etc..) not that I care about markings, as I have had others with almost no white... but most of mine are flashy... you dont' need double merles for that.

Laur is right, this isn't even about improving the breed, its about producing a pretty colour. This doesnt' help the health, temperament, or working ability of the breed. Even for modern standards. I merle dog is not going to be a faster agility dog, a more accurate obedience dog or a better pet.

Again, I don't know this breeder.. I know of them. I don't know why they bred merle to merle, I never asked them. I don't know what their goals or plans are. I saw a thread about double merles... and knew the BOB at Westminster came from a kennel that had a double merle... so I posted. I'm regretting that now, since you all seem to think I'm some horrible person because I'm not going to come right out and start posting how horrible a breeder is... like everyone else on here.

 

[Laurelin]

Personally I hope that if more people stand up and say that it IS wrong, it will eventually lose favor enough and possibly even be written against in the breed club's bylaws. We're not going to get anywhere if people keep on saying such breedings are okay. I simply hope to educate people that may or may not be aware the risks such breedings have or who may think the breedings are okay. There are very large risks that don't need to be taken at all. There is no reason to do so. I don't really expect you to say anything, I just hope that with time people will see why this is wrong and irresponsible breeding.

It's not done often in many kennels. Usually just done in hopes of getting a really nice double merle stud out of the breeding because if you do then when he is bred he will produce litters that are 100% merle and there is no risk breeding a double merle himself to a non merle. There is no other way to get 100% merle litters. The kennels that I see it done in only have one double merle stud that they breed for merle litters. My friend's show sheltie is out of a double merle sire and he's fine. The sire can hear and see normally. It's not those dogs that are the problem, it's the unseen ones that are often culled.

Of course the ones they use are fine and healthy. Not all double merles are suffering from defects. But it really doesn't take that long before you start seeing issues in these breeds. In Coolies and houlas I've heard merle x merle is less of an issue. I'm not sure how true that is as they're not breeds I'm interested in but in Aussies, Shelties, border collies, etc merle x merle dogs are very frequently deaf or blind or both or have no eyes, etc. 25% or so of the dogs from merle x merle are doubles. Not all have issues and I don't know the amount that do, but by performing such a cross, you greatly increase the likelihood of issues arising from it without a real reason for doing so.

And it's not just reserved for show breeders. I saw a litter a while back (can't find it now) from a working border collie breeder who had double merle pups. Regardless of reasoning, it's still imo irresponsible and unnecessary.

 

[Beanie]

Me saying "I hate that breeder because she did merle x merle"... wow.. that did a lot of good!.. I'm sure that will make them stop..

Educating people to NOT buy from this sort of breeder, and explaining why exactly it is harmful, WILL do good.
Sitting on your hands and, worse, condoning it and making excuses for it will do harm.


Laur is 100% right. Placing colour over health does not just signal a problem with a breeder, but it is IMO outright disgusting. I love blue merles and I would like one someday, but I would honestly run away from somebody who was intentionally breeding for them no matter their process. And honestly it would be the same if they were ONLY breeding sables or ONLY breeding tri-colours or pinks or greens or yellows or whatever. Breed a quality dog... not a colourful one.

 

[Zoom]

There is a lot of generalized "you" usage going on as well, Spiritwind.

 

[Spiritwind]

Ok.. just posting my opinion one more time, then I am done with this for now. I didn't post this to start some huge debate or argument, had I known it would be like this, I probably wouldn't posted because I have better things to do than argue with other people on a forum..

First, I never said I condoned breeding merle x merle. What I said was I wasn't going to slam a breeder (especially on a public forum) for doing a breeding like this. I don't know their thoughts or reasons for doing it, and I'm not going to guess..

No, I would never do merle x merle, and IF I had to pick a favorite color, it probably would be blue, but I would personally never risk doing such a breeding. The breeders I personally know, the breeders I have worked with, the breeder my foundation bitch came from... and the breeders I go to shows with, have not ever, nor would they ever do merle x merle. Yes I know OF breeders who have done them, but I do not know them personally.

Second, if it's such a huge issue with so many people, why don't the people of the ASSA, or CCA, or ASCA or whatever breed club, get a group together and go petition the clubs to add to the code of ethics or bylaws that breeding merle x merle is forbidden?? If the Collie clubs wanted to make it against the code of ethics to breed merle x merle, I would vote yes!..

Just some thoughts...

Now it's a nice day out, 55 degrees, sunny and the dogs are waiting for me to take them out to run for a bit... so I'm done with this for now..

 

[elegy]

sometimes i regret having purchased a merle dog because he just feeds into the merle mania. he's a beautiful dog and he's a sweet dog and he makes people want one. his color had nothing to do with my picking him (i wanted a black and white dog, but it didn't work out that way), but it's flashy and slightly unusual and people see pretty color before anything else far too often.

 

[StillandSilent]

Honestly, before I saw Steve I didn't even know border collies could come in merle.
Here, in NC, merle is a funny thing, We see a lot of merle dogs/puppies, and they either get snapped up right off the bat, with several people wanting each, or no one will look at them because they're "funny looking". Sometimes even the black puppies get adopted before the merles, and shelter people know how strange that is.

 

[Zoom]

Overly white dogs can also be produced because of excessive white trim. The alleles responsible for the Irish spotting pattern (white collar, blazes, front legs) can, at times, go a bit over board and the resulting mismark looks to be the result of an MxM in some cases. Excessive white mismarks are prone to the same disabilities as an MxM pup, though much harder to predict. There was a litter of Aussies just recently born that has an EWM pup, even though both parents are red tris. All the pups are normally marked except for one, who is nearly half white, with a splotch of color over one eye and on the underside of one ear on the same side. It remains to be seen if the pup will be deaf/blind either unilaterally or bilaterally or even normal.

 

[OutlineACDs]

Overly white dogs can also be produced because of excessive white trim. The alleles responsible for the Irish spotting pattern (white collar, blazes, front legs) can, at times, go a bit over board and the resulting mismark looks to be the result of an MxM in some cases. Excessive white mismarks are prone to the same disabilities as an MxM pup, though much harder to predict. There was a litter of Aussies just recently born that has an EWM pup, even though both parents are red tris. All the pups are normally marked except for one, who is nearly half white, with a splotch of color over one eye and on the underside of one ear on the same side. It remains to be seen if the pup will be deaf/blind either unilaterally or bilaterally or even normal.

This isn't true in collies and shelties. It's called color-headed white and its a perfectly safe way to get while puppies. They usually have markings on the head with some having body spots.

In those breeds its from breeding two white factored dogs. A white factored dog has white above the hock, or elbow. If you breed two white facoted dogs you can get color-headed whites. In shelties it isn't allowed in the show ring, but it is completely legal in collies. It isn't considered dangerous or unethical to breed these dogs. In shelties it is somewhat discouraged because a dog with over 50% white cannot be shown, but it isn't damaging to the health.

 

[Spiritwind]

In those breeds its from breeding two white factored dogs. A white factored dog has white above the hock, or elbow. If you breed two white facoted dogs you can get color-headed whites. In shelties it isn't allowed in the show ring, but it is completely legal in collies. It isn't considered dangerous or unethical to breed these dogs. In shelties it is somewhat discouraged because a dog with over 50% white cannot be shown, but it isn't damaging to the health.

Not all white factored dogs are that easy and obvious to tell. I've seen some puppies that HAD to be white factored because the sire was a color headed white -- but the pups had narrow white collars, and no white up the stifle. Genetically they have to be white factored because the sire is a color headed white. A friend of mine even did DNA testing just for the fun of it to test one of the puppies color, and she came back as white factored even though physically she does not look it.

On the other hand I have a tri bitch here, who LOOKS white factored, but genetically she is not.

White up the stifle, white up on her side a bit, full white front legs, huge white collar that goes down to her shoulders. But she is not white factored.

On a collie forum I go to, which is based in Europe, a few weeks back they were talking about the kennel club in I think it was Sweden?? was considering banning the breeding of any dogs carrying the white factor gene. Why?? I have no idea, I know in Europe color headed whites are not allowed to be bred or shown.. but if they do it's just going to limit a already very small gene pool of Collies in that part of Europe.

 

[OutlineACDs]

Spirit, I wonder if it's any different in shelties since they have bred away from the colo-headed whites?

I'm more familiar with shelties as I usually travel with a good friend who is a sheltie breeder.

 

[Spiritwind]

Spirit, I wonder if it's any different in shelties since they have bred away from the colo-headed whites?

I'm more familiar with shelties as I usually travel with a good friend who is a sheltie breeder.

It's possible, but I still think SOME shelties that are white factored are still not obvious white factors. I know it's a big thing to some sheltie breeders to not breed white factored to white factored, but I've seen some color headed whites pop up on occasion in sheltie litters.

My second "job", I work with sheltie breeders (that are also professional handlers of Collies and Shelties), they live next door (well they own both properties).

Also a friend of mine (who I bought my foundation bitch from years ago - a Collie) switched to shelties maybe 8-9 yrs ago. I've whelped litters for both these people, and my friend has had Color headed whites in litters on occasion. I know the mother of one of the color headed whites was a bi-black bitch with ALMOST no white on her at all... yet she had a color headed white daughter.

 

[Laurelin]

Yeah it's possible to have dogs that LOOK white factored and aren't and dogs that are white factored and don't look it in shelties.

I'd post more but I gotta go!