Does the dog meet standard?

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by krissy, Feb 10, 2014.

  1. Sekah

    Sekah The Monster.

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    I think entering your dog in a beauty competition opens it up for critiques on its beauty. When that beauty competition is supposed to reflect is essence as a breed and is a modern reflection of its working roots, it opens up the door for commenting on that as well. It's a fine line and most people are more interested in tearing someone down than building it up.
     
  2. Finkie_Mom

    Finkie_Mom It's A Red Dog Revolution

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    I am not going to post specific pictures because the Finkie world is VERY small and everyone would be able to easily figure out who I am on here because of my dogs LOL.

    I will say that there are trends popping up in my breed that I am not a fan of (I alluded to them in the "Is your dog typey?" thread):
    -Lots of white on the chest ("White markings on the tips of the toes and a quarter-sized spot or narrow white strip, ideally no wider than ½ inch, on the forechest are permitted.")
    -Short and curly tails ("Set on just below level of topline, forming a single curl falling over the loin with tip pointing towards the thigh. Plumed, curving vigorously from its base in an arch forward, downward, and backward, pressing flat against either thigh with tip extending to middle part of thigh. When straightened, the tip of the tailbone reaches the hock joint.")
    -Round eyes ("Almond-shaped with black rims. Obliquely set with moderate spacing between, neither too far apart nor too close. Outer corners tilted upward. Dark in color with a keen and alert expression.").
    -Dogs being groomed to look almost Shiba-like/obviously trimmed ("No trimming of the coat except for feet is allowed. Whiskers shall not be trimmed. Any trimming of coat shall be severely faulted.")

    There are more, but they are not as widespread and are on a "top-winning dog-by-dog" basis.
     
  3. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    I'd say a US ESS... I've noticed the us ones look like proper show poofy and groomed. The UK standard asks for moderate feathering, and you will see the dogs in the ring look far more natural.

    For example...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Vs

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    I think in most countries springers tend to look more like the bottom photos.
     
  5. Elrohwen

    Elrohwen New Member

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    I much prefer the international style English springers, even over field line dogs I've seen here (which are sometimes tall and weedy, with almost no coat). I love that they have varied patterns too. The US ESS have such a consistent blanket pattern that they all look the same to me (even in person, watching them show, they are very hard to tell apart).

    That's also one of the reasons I don't like that Welshie being trimmed like an ESS, because I'm not crazy about style in general. My Welsh is groomed pretty much like those British dogs, except with shorter ear feathers.
     
  6. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Do welshies grow long ear feathers if you don't cut them?
     
  7. Elrohwen

    Elrohwen New Member

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    Yep. The standard says "light feathering" and says you should be able to see the ear shape, so people trim up the fur to edge of the ear leather and take some feathering off (more or less depending on the person). The top 1/3 of the ear is shaved short. Some pet people let it go and it can look like this:
    [​IMG]

    or this:

    [​IMG]

    I definitely prefer them short because I don't like ears getting into stuff while they're eating or sniffing. When Watson was a baby and his ears were too big for his face, they fell into his food and water bowls and it was gross. I like to leave some hair though, and I don't like the totally shaved down look that some people do because it makes him look too grown up and serious.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2014
  8. meepitsmeagan

    meepitsmeagan Meagan & The Cattle Dog Crew

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    I'm just getting started in the ACD confo world. There's a few things I don't like.

    #1: There is beginning to be a split in the breed much like Bench Labs. Dogs are being bred to be much bulkier, which is not strengthening their ability to work cows.
    #2: LACK OF ANGULATION. I say it a million times because it's an issue that needs help.
    #3: Working ability? Yeahno. Some of these dogs are just sooo dull.

    This is the BOB from Westminster this year (from their website):
    [​IMG]

    He's longer than I like to see, he's very straight through the rear. Just meh. I'm not impressed by him.

    This is Brick. He's been to Westminster several times. I like him a lot more.
    [​IMG]

    He's not my favorite dog by any means. I'm not a huge fan of his face, but he's put together a lot better IMO.

    These are dogs I like a lot more that I feel represent what the breed should be moving towards. (AGAIN, NOT A CONFO EXPERT)

    [​IMG]

    This guy is a little longer than my liking and is built a little too uphill, but he's got nice angles.
    [​IMG]

    I can't find a good photo of the other girl I like. Anywho, take it for what it's worth.

    With the ESS, I much prefer to see the international dogs. Less coat is much more practical in the field. Like many others, I'm for moderation and practicality as well as temperament.

    I also do believe in breeding to the breed standard, NOT necessarily what's "in". Just because a certain type or structural feature (such as straightness in Mal's) is winning doesn't mean it is to standard or is the best fit for what the dog is supposed to do.

    /novel.
     
  9. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    I've probably said this before but standards are ranges and that's what should be bred for. Even within that range, their should be some exceptions in size or color I think if there are quality working characteristics behind that particular dog. Otherwise, if they're in the range, they're good to go. Everything else should be based on performance.

    I didn't watch Westminster, but honestly were these the labs they put up as Best in breed????

    http://slimdoggy.com/no-wonder-a-lab-has-never-won-at-westminster/

    anyway, I don't much care what people say about my dogs. I don't know how to standard they are. I know they look like German Shepherds, that's good enough for me as far as looks go.
     
  10. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    That's actually disgusting to me, those dogs are OBESE. And tiny. Well, obviously not tiny. Short!!!!

    How owners look at them and feel proud is beyond my comprehension!
     
  11. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Oh wow, I had no idea that welshies had long ear feathering. I have no idea why I didn't think that since most spaniels do. Learn something every day.
     
  12. Elrohwen

    Elrohwen New Member

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    Haha. I think it's probably proportional to how much regular feathering they have. After 6-8 weeks between grooms, his ear feathering is only about 1cm below the line of his ear leather, so it would take a while to grow it out like the ESS do. The ESS also have longer ear leather in general, so they don't need to grow as much hair to get the long look. I love the paps because they get the glamorous ear feathers without the issue of getting it in their food.
     
  13. JazzyTheSibe

    JazzyTheSibe Love is 4 legged word

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    [​IMG]
    These Labradors, seem overweight(obese) to me. I don't know if it's the "type" for that particular line. But, they just shouldn't be bred if they are that type.

    These Labradors, are what I prefer,compared to the dog above.
    [​IMG]
    This
     
  14. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    To be fair, show bred Goldens are bred for...well showing. And companionship. They are a wildly popular breed in our modern times, so there are many modern "jobs" for them. The most common is being a good companion. How many people are actually seeking out Goldens to hunt with? Don't those people go to breeder who actively hunt with their dogs? The same as people who show go to breeders who actively show?

    Some breeds/dogs are known for being versatile and having show dogs who retain good working ability. Some are not. In some breeds, there's splits between working and show (and performance and pet and...and...) but in those breeds, the separate populations don't tend to have much impact on each other. They might also be a positive in terms of genetic diversity and the potential to outcross within the same breed but totally different gene pools. And in some the working dogs are what's in the ring. And in some, there's really no working lines only show or show and pet. The show ring doesn't "ruin breeds" though. If a breed no longer has a working population, it's likely because modern times don't support a job for them. If the show breeders have opted to breed for an easier and/or prettier version of what a working breed...well, they're breeding them for pets and show dogs. Does anyone in modern times buy a PWD because they make a living as a fisherman and need a dog to move nets between boats and carry messages back and forth to the shore? No, people buy them for show, companions and performance dogs. Their job is outdated and without a doubt the PWDs of today are not the same dogs the fishermen of the past used. But that doesn't mean the people who have and breed PWDs love the breed any less or that the breed should become extinct because they can't be bred for work. All breeds are constantly evolving as times and needs change. There's still a strong working population of GSDs but I'm not sure they are "just like the captain's dogs" of the past. I think the working GSDs are still in general terms the dogs that the breed founder wanted them to be but they have undoubtedly changed in appearance and likely to some degree, character. Things change, people change and dog breeds change.

    And besides that people are never happy when it comes to breeds in the show ring. When you have a breed like the PyrSheps who are still very close to and true to their roots, people have a hard time accepting them as they are. Everyone will go on and on about how they don't have good temperaments because they still act like dogs who lived with nomadic people in the mountains. And that their breed standard is too loose and allows too much variance because the dogs in the ring "don't even look like the same breed!!!".

    Not sure how long you've had Eskies but those temperament issues aren't new and certainly aren't limited to show lines. Considering how many Eskies I have met and how many who are fearful and/or aggressive, I'd say that is a problem that is pretty widespread in the breed. No one who breeds show dogs wants to produce dogs who can't be shown though and dogs who won't stand for a judge to examine them or who bite the judge aren't going to do very well in the ring. I'd say IME the Eskies at shows are generally more tolerant of handling than the pet bred Eskies I have come across for sure.
     
  15. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    Are Golden's good at being companions? I dont ever come across field type Golden's so I dont know much about them, but it seems every show golden I know is dead of a brain tumor by age 7 or 8.
     
  16. SizzleDog

    SizzleDog Lord Cynical

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    I know plenty who are quite old, and doing just fine. Granted, I do see a TON of them since I belong to an AKC obedience club. ;)
     
  17. GingerKid

    GingerKid New Member

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    Tolerance to handling is something that can be easily trained in adult dogs, and it is even easier of the touch desensitization starts at a young age. I have seen adult dogs that had issues with anyone touching them at all turn into dogs that had no issues being fully handled by complete strangers (including dental checks) after a few weeks of constant and consistent touch desensitization work. Desensitizing a dog to touch early can make a huge difference, regardless of the dog's temperament, so some of the difference between show and pet Eskies is likely the owners and the mount of effort they put in to training and building a sound dog. Based on the dogs that come into the shelter with intolerance to handling (as either strays or as surrenders), touch sensitivity is something too many pet owners just accept.

    I can't say for sure, but probably all of the Eskies I have met have been pet-bred. Some of them have been in a shelter setting, where two of the four Eskies I worked with were owner surrenders for biting (the other two were brought in as strays). Most of my dog experience is in rescue, and conformation shows are not well (i.e. never) advertised in that community so I've been having problems getting information on shows so I can meet different breeds. I feel like a lot of points that you brought up are good ones, but at the same time, make me really hesistant about getting into showing, and in the future, breeding. (Well, that and money :p).

    I also have a hard time reconsiling BIS - how does a judge compare dogs who are all nearly perfect specimens of their breed to one another, when they all represent something different?

    Hubby's aunt had a golden who lived to be almost 11 with epilepsy and kidney failure. He eventually died of liver cancer. His sister died at age 7 also from liver cancer.
     
  18. SizzleDog

    SizzleDog Lord Cynical

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    Let's say breeders start making ears a priority. What happens to the dogs that end up with bad ears in the meantime? Can't be shown, can't really be bred, and finding pet homes could/would be difficult. Entire breeding programs could be wiped out. And much, much bigger issues (health, temperament, and structure) could be neglected and be allowed to run rampant. As far as ears go, IMO they're really low on the list of things that need to be drastically changed and specifically bred for, until such time as it is illegal to crop them. Dogs don't run or jump with their ears.

    I get your point, but I would like to clarify - people pay money for a judge to critique their dogs. While we can all agree that the judges get it wrong sometimes, the fact still remains that the only opinion people are paying for is that of the judge. Anything else is just ringside speculation - which could be spot on, or could be totally off base. Especially when you're dealing with people who don't know or understand the standard of the dog they're criticizing.
     
  19. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    I wasn't meaning they ALL die young, it just seems to me there is a high percentage compared to the others. I had a GSD we think died from hemangio at 11, I've known plenty of others that have died young for all sorts of reasons cancer included, but the number of dogs and handlers with GSD's I know or have contact with dwarf most other breeds besides the Mal and most of them live 10 or beyond with little troubles.

    But of all the Golden owners i've known, it seems more rare that one lives past 8 than dies before it from cancer. Different owners, different breeders, different areas. Just seems weird to me
     
  20. SizzleDog

    SizzleDog Lord Cynical

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    Don't worry, I wasn't saying that you meant they all die young. :)

    All I meant was that in my peer group, those with conformation-bred Goldens don't seem to be losing dogs any younger than those with field and/or obedience bred Goldens.
     

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