Does the dog meet standard?

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by krissy, Feb 10, 2014.

  1. krissy

    krissy New Member

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    A bit of a spin off the "is your dog typey?" thread... this is something I've been thinking about for awhile and it seems appropriate given Westminster is on now.

    For your particular breed is there something in the show ring that you dislike? I don't want this to get really heated, it's just meant to be some light hearted sharing. I realize it might be difficult to do without pictures, but I think in the name of keeping this from getting heated or offensive that perhaps it is best to avoid... unless perhaps you can use pictures of dogs that are deceased or lines that are no longer active or are your own dogs?

    I will preface this by saying that I know virtually nothing about conformation. I showed Kili a few times for fun last year but my opinion is based purely on my own feeling of aesthetics.

    I've noticed some show greyhounds (I have basically never seen it among the racing NGA hounds) have these really exaggerated deep chests. This is a deep chested breed, obviously, however I've seen pictures of some dogs where the chest is so deep that it makes the dog look squat (the legs don't look long enough even though they are). Generally these dogs also have a very square/boxy chest and therefore a less exaggerated tuck up (standard says "chest is deep, and as wide as consistent with speed"). I also don't like when the back slopes from the shoulders to the haunches (like a GSD). I like a nice flat back or a bit of an arch (the standard says "well arched" which I don't think we see a lot of).

    Anyway, I'm not posting pictures because I know nothing but what pleases my own eye. I'm just curious what others think... especially others that are as uneducated as I am. While watching dog shows what makes you just go :confused: "how does that fit in the interpretation of the standard" within your own breed(s).
     
  2. *blackrose

    *blackrose "I'm kupo for kupo nuts!"

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    Well, I am by NO means an expert. As in, I have no show background, nor have I actually owned a well bred Labrador, but...

    I hate the huge swings in the breed. Hate hate hate hate hate. And I'm going to preface to say that the dogs I have in these photos are just random google images and I have NOTHING against any of the dogs. I just...don't see why?

    Like, these two dogs are both purebred black Labradors from reputable breeders:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    WHY are there such extremes?

    This really bothers me, and is one of the reasons I did not end up with a Labrador. I could NOT find a breeder that was producing what I think of as a well put together Labrador (type, titles, and health clearances) that was not clear across the country and I find that incredibly sad. A lot of great dogs, mind you, but...either short and stout show dogs or tall and wispy field dogs. WHY are moderate type dogs not bred for?

    One of the clients at work has a pup from one of the Lab breeders I was looking at when I was considering a pup. He's a gorgeous Lab, don't get me wrong...but he is going to be HUGE. Like, Abrams huge, only wider. There is another Lab that I absolutely *drooled* over as a puppy, but he's matured into a dog BIGGER than Abrams, both in height and girth. He's probably over 100 pounds by now and is bigger than some Rotties I've seen. A well put together dog (as in, if he was about 75 pounds he'd be perfect)...but I don't think Labradors need to be in the 90 pound range, either caused by bulk or in height. Labradors are not a *giant* breed. They should not be flying past the 80 pound mark before they're 7 months old.


    Like....I think these are good looking dogs:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I suppose I don't understand why that type has gone by the wayside and isn't more popular.

    I could also be a fuddy duddy who just doesn't understand what a proper Lab is. But I'm happy being a fuddy duddy. :eek:
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2014
  3. AlbertaLab

    AlbertaLab New Member

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    My two labs are not to standard, but that's ok with me. Dio is 110 lbs of muscle but is much taller than the breed allowance. His personality is 100% lab though. I love the narrower muzzles personally, which is why I go for the Field type Labs over Bench.
     
  4. Paige

    Paige Let it be

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    There is nothing I find appealing about a show bred BC.
     
  5. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    I don't like collies with very little white. A collie without white feet just looks...wrong.

    [​IMG]

    I also don't like the weird, weird head shapes of Russian smooth collies. WEIRD.

    I'm torn on the houndy coats of smooth collies in areas where smooths can't be bred to roughs. I like that they're tight and probably shed very little, but...the standard calls for an abundance of undercoat, and it makes their shape look strange to not have a ruff at all.

    I don't like the roman nose and tiny eyes that are common on so many BYB collies.

    [​IMG]

    For eye see the second picture on the top row. SO MANY collies around here look like that.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Ozfozz

    Ozfozz Highbread Dingbat

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    From what I have read, (I am by no means an expert), yes my boy does meet the written standard. He's within the right height, he's structurally sound, intelligent, alert, etc.

    [​IMG]

    "The Border Collie is, and should remain, a natural and unspoiled true working sheep dog whose conformation is described herein. Honorable scars and broken teeth incurred in the line of duty are acceptable."


    But there seems to be massive discrepancies between the written standard and the "show" Border Collies.
    Somehow the standard gets read as "Wide face and huge thick coat"
    [​IMG]
     
  7. MicksMom

    MicksMom Active Member

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    Breeders will say the Labs in the show ring aren't fat, so I'll leave it at over done. Sorry- they shouldn't look like whiskey barrels on legs or small, solid colored Rottweilers. I just can't picture them being able to swim and retrieve all day. I'd love to see Labs looking like the ones in the link again.

    http://www.sandylands.net/Photo Gallery.html

    ETA- oh, and does Caleb meet the standard? Technically yes, but not enough to show in the breed ring here. At 23 1/2 inches, he's right in the middle of the height range and within the weight range of 65-80 pounds for a male (he's 75 pounds). But it took him 5 years to hit the weight, and for his coat to be right. Even if he wasn't neutered, he'd never make the cut here in the states. However, I think he'd have stood a fighting chance in the UK.
     
  8. Elrohwen

    Elrohwen Active Member

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    Watson is mostly to standard. His eyes are too round (generally an issue in his lines). His tail is set on a bit low, and he carries it too high when he's moving. His ears might be a bit high. His structure is good, and his side gait is lovely. His movement coming and going is ok - sometimes he is wide in front (I think this was a lameness issue, since it popped up randomly) and he gets a little close in the rear. The standard says the feet will tend to converge on a center line with increasing speed, but his converge just a bit much sometimes. He still has some filling out to do and is pretty skinny with no chest, but it's common in his mom's lines to not have a chest until 2 years. Overall he's a really nice dog, with some minor cosmetic issues of eyes, tail and ear set that are very slightly off. When he was 8 weeks, his breeder said he was one of the nicest males she had bred. He hasn't turned out exactly like she predicted, but he's a really nice dog.


    I haven't been in my breed long enough to see a lot of trends. There is quite a bit of variety in Welshies though, and I know what types I like and which ones I don't. I'm not a fan of the shorter stockier dogs. Spaniels should be round, and they shouldn't be tall and skinny, but they should be athletic and a small stocky dog doesn't seem like one who can work in the fields all day. They should be longer than tall, but not long and low like a sussex spaniel or something. I also see dogs who aren't great movers and take short choppy strides. Again, for a dog who should be tireless in the field, an efficient trot is so important.

    Big coats are definitely a trend. Most breeders will tell you that a Welsh shouldn't have a ton of coat and should be practical, but then judges reward coat. The number one dog right now is beautiful, but omg the coat (you can see him compete in the group at Westminster tonight). It's so long that they trim it along the bottom like an English springer, which is even against the standard (any obvious barbering is a no-no), but it gets rewarded. I showed under a breeder-judge once and he put Watson up over another dog partially because the other dog had too much coat and Watson doesn't. Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of breeder-judges out there.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2014
  9. GatorDog

    GatorDog Member

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    Aiden technically does, bot does not follow the American standard as closely as the German SV. He really doesn't look like an American line GSD at all...
    [​IMG]

    He does look like an exact mix of German Showline and German Working line dog to me.

    West German Showline
    [​IMG]

    West German Working line (Aiden's sire)
    [​IMG]

    And Aiden :)
    [​IMG]
     
  10. Beanie

    Beanie Clicker Cult Coordinator

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    Collie heads on a sheltie. I like a collie head just fine on a collie. I do not like a collie head on a sheltie. Luckily those don't tend to do very well in the ring on the whole. They are so obviously out of the standard, most judges won't put them up.

    BUT the number one way to get a collie head to do well in the ring is to slap it on a heavily coated sheltie. Payton has what we say is "a lot of coat." He's nothing compared to a lot of the dogs you see in the ring. It makes it tough to be successful with a working-bred dog since the priority there is going to be working ability, structure, and temperament rather than... uh... coat. So. Yeah. You can still do it, but it's tougher these days than it was a decade ago. You have to really know your judges and know which ones respect structure over pretty fur.
     
  11. krissy

    krissy New Member

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    Since folks are posting pictures I found a relatively random photo online.

    [​IMG]

    The dog on the left is what I tend to like. The dog on the right is what I meant by so deep chested the legs look short and the tuck up is compromised.
     
  12. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    That dog on the right does look very strange...
     
  13. Elrohwen

    Elrohwen Active Member

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    Here's an example of too much coat. Gorgeous dog, I do really love him overall, but there's no way that coat is practical in the field. Sure, a lot of that can be attributed to grooming and protecting the coat, but I don't want my breed to go down a road where this kind of coat is expected or desired.

    [​IMG]

    Here is a very famous dog from earlier in the 20th century with a very moderate coat. Most females today look more or less like this dog, but the males have much more coat now.
    [​IMG]
     
  14. SizzleDog

    SizzleDog Lord Cynical

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    Oh yikes, that coat is really excessive! Holy wow.
     
  15. Elrohwen

    Elrohwen Active Member

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    Yeah. I'm really not a fan. I think it would look better if it wasn't cut so straight across and was more natural.

    He's picked up a few BIS this year, which is impressive for a Welsh, so obviously judges like it.
     
  16. krissy

    krissy New Member

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    Wow, that's odd. I'm not sure if it's just that the coat is excessive... the cut is also strange. It's like there's a thin curtain hanging from the midline as opposed to being generally shaggy in the chest/abdomen (think typical Golden feathering). Is that the way the dog is or was it specifically cut that way?
     
  17. Elrohwen

    Elrohwen Active Member

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    It's cut/shaped that way. You do need to take off some coat from the shoulders and neck, and strip a little bit of the body (depending on the dog) and different people do it differently.

    Here is a picture of Watson's dad. He still has quite a bit of coat, but it's much more natural looking even though it's sculpted a bit. His coat hasn't been straightened as much as the first dog either. This is still more coat than I would want, personally, though some of that does have to do with how well you take care of it and avoid breakage. I'm curious to see if Watson looks like this when he's older, but then I don't do anything to avoid breakage.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2014
  18. AmandaNola

    AmandaNola Wanna Pet My Wiener?

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    I hate how short legged and deep chest show dachshunds are. Even when they're at a good weight the chest drags on the ground. Yes, they are a deep chested and short legged breed, but they're a hunting dogs and a showline dachshund just isn't functional. The dogs can't do what they're bred to do, and IMO that makes them a bit useless.

    A more personal issue is I hate the exaggerated roman nose and tiny eyes. It's especially bad in standards.
     
  19. SpringerLover

    SpringerLover Active Member

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    That Welshie is trimmed like an ESS.
     
  20. Elrohwen

    Elrohwen Active Member

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    Exactly. It's probably made him a bit more competitive in the group ring, but I would prefer a more standard Welshie trim.
     

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