Documentary - BBC - Pedigree Dogs Exposed

[drmom777]

Thanks for posting this--on you tube I was only able to see the first ten minutes of this, and I wanted to see the rest.

I am generally opposed to the show world because the breed clubs and the AKC have, in my opinion, totally destroyed many, many breeds. it just seems like the natural inclination of show breeders is to go overboard on any characteristic they like....apparently moderation is just not easy to accomplish.

 

[smkie]

COMbine that with the bad breeding of puppy mills, i wouldn't want to be a vet right now. THat would be heart breaking. BAd at the top, and bad at the very bottom.

 

[dr2little]

COMbine that with the bad breeding of puppy mills, i wouldn't want to be a vet right now. THat would be heart breaking. BAd at the top, and bad at the very bottom.

Sometimes a little rotten in the middle too I'm afraid smkie. I know that there are way too many Vets here who simply don't discourge, or educate on breedings that should never take place. You'd think that they'd at least see that there's money to be made for health testing to...

I know many Vets who absolutely put the best interest of the dog/breed/potential pups first, but I see so many that just don't seem to care or they're just to overwhelmed or whatever....

When I see some of the genetic messes coming into classes, and I'm referring to pure bred, registered dogs....it's really heartbreaking.

Tinker is a good example. Her breeder was very well respected in the show community yet look at her....and she would likely have been bred. This was 10 years ago mind you but there's just no excuse.

Same thing with the Brussels breeders, Amos and Rosie's puppy pimp owners. All they really cared about was pumping out puppies, prancing them around the ring and little else.

I see it from both sides too though. There are pups and dogs that I see who's breeders could not have been more ethical, caring, responsible...but they are in the minority. It's just sad..

 

[smkie]

i think you should repost in the breeding forum and apply a sticky to it. Too much good information to let slide past.

 

[dr2little]

I had it in the breeding section but thought that no one (or less people) would see it. Would anyone mind if it was in 2 places?

 

[Laurelin]

I totally agree with Gemp. If you're around the show scene you can obviously see that there are things that need changing, but this is not the entire show world. People need to remember that.

There are some interesting things being done in Sweden from what I hear from someone who shows dogs there. 7 breeds are supposed to undergo drastic changes as far as judging goes- English bulldog, Neapolitan mastiff, Shar pei, Chow chow, Basset hound, French bulldog, and Pekingese. There are also groups of breeds that are being 'observed' as the trends aren't quite as exaggerated/ridden with health problems but could get there. Should be interesting to see what comes of these changes.

 

[dr2little]

I totally agree with Gemp. If you're around the show scene you can obviously see that there are things that need changing, but this is not the entire show world. People need to remember that.

There are some interesting things being done in Sweden from what I hear from someone who shows dogs there. 7 breeds are supposed to undergo drastic changes as far as judging goes- English bulldog, Neapolitan mastiff, Shar pei, Chow chow, Basset hound, French bulldog, and Pekingese. There are also groups of breeds that are being 'observed' as the trends aren't quite as exaggerated/ridden with health problems but could get there. Should be interesting to see what comes of these changes.

I agree but I don't think that anyone is suggesting that this represents the entire show community by any stretch. There are however, some extremely serious practices and hidden truths that are going on to this day that people should be aware of.

I've heard about the breed changes but would love more info. if you have anything that you can share. All of the breeds mentioned are in serious need of help in order for them to continue. I've seen some horribly overdone Eng. bulldogs and Bassest in particular, it makes you just want to cry.

 

[Laurelin]

I know this is totally unrelated to showing but 'my dog' at the shelter lately has been this terrible looking basset. He has nice long legs for a basset but his legs twist so badly underneath him it's sick to watch him walk. Of course he's obviously not a show dog or from show lines (he's about twice the size of a show basset) but it does show that these breeds have severe problems in the average byb too.

I can see what I can find out from her or if she'll let me quote her. What's interesting about this is Sweden is known for their dogs not being nearly as extreme as ours are over here in most breeds.

 

[dr2little]

Sweden has a completely different opinion on cosmetic structure and they certainly pay more attention to physical struction as it relates to health and the ability to do the job the dog was bred to do.

I'm reading some very interesting research on how things like Canine Eugenics differ between contries such as Sweden and U.S and Canada. Things are changing in many European countries.

 

[KenyiGirl]

wow. that was so eye-opening. Thank you so much for posting. what a sad, sad situation this has become...

 

[Kayla]

Okay so Ive already cried twice- seeing those boxers siezure killed me.

Those GSD's at the crufts show were disgusting, I can't believe how bad the gait is, correct me if Im wrong but as much as everyone talks about american line GSD's having poor hips- those GSD's have to be 10 times work, those dogs could hardly even walk!

I know this doesnt represent the whole community and I have lots of respect for those who work to refine their breed to bring out the best ( Im thinking of you Red) but I think its good at least someone is looking into the precentage of people who are represented in this video as they do need to be held accountable for what they are doing IMO.

On to watching the rest of the video had to grab tissues.

 

[Maxy24]

It is a shame what has come of them, I'm only about half way through, if they would just alter the standard to try and make the dogs look like they did back in the day, when they DID things, a lot of dogs would be better off. But how do you find a good breeder then, if showing is actually "bad"? Not all dogs can be worked in a way that proves they are functional, how would you work the toy breeds? How about the dogs bred to bait animals, that is after all illegal to do so you can't test them that way. But of course you'd like a breeder who can prove they are actively trying to make the breed better/correct, as far as I know working and showing are how you prove your dog is what the breed should be, and if some breeds can't be worked...

They also have not mentioned genetic testing that good breeders do which may avoid quite a bit of these problems (not all of course, but some) not all breeders go about simply breeding the show winners.

I don't know what they would do about in-breeding, unless we get rid of pure bred animals (which is sorta what they sound like they want... I don't know anything about this organization, is it related to the HSUS and PETA?) there is really no way to never in-breed with some breeds, should they be eliminated?

I didn't know the Spina biffida thing about the ridge backs, why were ridges bred for in the first place? These were hunting dogs, I don't really see why anyone would have discovered and tried to breed for dogs with ridges, it does not make any sense. Unless the ridge is caused by the Spina biffida and someone thought they looked cool and started unknowingly breeding diseased dogs since the ridge looked special.

I don't know what to think, I do think standards need to be changed, but I don't think they should stop having purebred dogs...I mean then people would breed mixes, so there would be no more picking the right dog for your family, every dog would be a gamble, maybe he'll have the right temperament, maybe he'll stay the right size, maybe he'll be good with cats, maybe he'll have low energy etc. Some people cannot have that gamble. If you have a houseful of dogs your going to want to a pick a puppy who will be good with them, with no purebreds who knows!

So it really is a pickle.

 

[Boemy]

I don't know what they would do about in-breeding, unless we get rid of pure bred animals (which is sorta what they sound like they want... I don't know anything about this organization, is it related to the HSUS and PETA?) there is really no way to never in-breed with some breeds, should they be eliminated?

I don't know the best solution to rampant inbreeding, but I do know that genetically speaking it's a huge problem. Just in general; inbreeding is bad. Lack of genetic variability is bad.

Look up the wolves of Isle Royale or the lions of Ngorongoro Crater . . . They are suffering because of their lack of genetic diversity (both groups being isolated due to geographical features and thus having a lot of inbreeding). The animals have some nasty mutations cropping up (defective sperm and weak immune systems with the lions, physical mutations with the wolves--and the wolves have only been isolated 50 years!) and scientists argue back and forth about whether humans should introduce new genetic material (new, unrelated animals) to keep the populations going (this is partly because they are such perfect subjects for predator-prey studies) or if they should let nature take its course, ie let the genetics screw over the animals.

I don't know what the solution is, I just wanted to point out that loss of genetic variability can lead to very real problems, it's not just some imaginary bogeyman.

 

[dr2little]

While I do understand the concern for agenda, this is fact and we have all seen the results of Eugenics in dog breeding.

There are very few breeds that are not as effected and the worst part is all of the secrecy surrounding the KNOWN potential consequences of many current breeding practices. There's far too much dice rolling going on.

If we're talking really honestly, shouldn't breeders be completely aware of all of the facts so that they can do their very best to protect the future of their breed? "Breeding true" in some cases has included horrible genetic faults, it's gotten out of hand.

There's a big pink elephant in the room, I think that it's time it gets some attention.

I certainly don't know the answers either, but research and sharing of information/education has got to be a start.

 

[TheGoldenRetriever]

I posted this video about a week ago (the YouTube version) after DanL was talking about the documentary. It's in this thread from the "News and Articles" section:

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85915&page=2

Likely true that more will see it on the "General" forum though, and I think the version you posted is a slightly longer video.

As Gem said, Corgilove pointed out that not all breeders are doing this ... but to my mind the fact that any reputable breeders are doing it is too many ... because they are supposed to know better than the puppy millers or BYBs!! Trouble happens when some breeders start caring more about confirmation titles and what those do for their own egos, rather than caring for the health and soundness of their breed.

As Kayla said, the GSDs in that UK show ring broke my heart as well.
GSDs are supposed to be a working breed ... those poor dogs weren't suitable for any sort of work, they couldn't even walk properly!

Unfortunately this is not just a problem with dogs ... cat breeders are going overboard as well, many more than dog breeders. What has been done to the Persian is criminal. Flatter and flatter faces to the point that it went from a limited snout stop to no stop at all ... many have absolutely concave profiles now! They call it a "pig face" and unfortunately it's winning confirmation titles. They have breathing problems from deformed nares, eye problems including recurrent infections, and many can't even eat properly! But many breeders deny the obvious problems ... and are now breeding for noses that are located directly in the middle of eyes instead of a more natural position.

 

[Boemy]

I've also heard of litters of siamese kittens that died because their faces were so narrow and angular that their eyes were on opposite sides of their heads . . . like a parrot or a fish, you know? Instead of both eyes facing forward? Well, cats were not meant to have that kind of vision and they died. It's disgusting. It's also stupid because the original siamese didn't even HAVE narrow faces or creepily long limbs.

Even though I HATE people who don't neuter/spay their cats and irresponsibly let them have kittens, I'm thankful that MOST cats have a "natural" body shape and that "show cats" are a rarity.

 

[joce]

I haven't gotten through it all yet, seems to be things we know already. There are horrible breeders out there who don't health test and don't care about what they breed. Just showing does not make a person a good breeder.

I don't think it seems like the best video to show everyone though unless there is some disclaimer about not buying from any bad breeder and definately not buying designer mutts. I can already see this as proof for the people I get into the designer mutt debates about.

Why can't breeders be responcible and why can't people learn? Most people would watch this and take from it that they should get a poo mix.

I want to smack the RSPCA guy. There is a place for showing-just because some people are idiots does not mean it should be condemned. A lot of the questions scream peta to me.

And getting into the eugenics it really does sound like every debate I have ever been in with a mutt breeder-my side is referred to as hitler supporters

I really wish it would have been called something more like " BAD DOG BREEDERS AND WHY TO RESEARCH"

 

[dr2little]

I haven't gotten through it all yet, seems to be things we know already. There are horrible breeders out there who don't health test and don't care about what they breed. Just showing does not make a person a good breeder.

I agree that some people on here are aware of some of the problems but I know that most people are totally unaware, unless you're in the pet industry in some way, just how horrible and prevalent these problems really are. I'm not sure how "just showing" would not be the best first step.

I don't think it seems like the best video to show everyone though unless there is some disclaimer about not buying from any bad breeder and definately not buying designer mutts. I can already see this as proof for the people I get into the designer mutt debates about.

I think that's an entirely different (while worthy) show on it's own. I have to disagree with you about this being ammo for designer breeders. Health testing is health testing and lets not forget that most designer breeders breed 1 purebred to another and many do no health testing..

Why can't breeders be responcible and why can't people learn? Most people would watch this and take from it that they should get a poo mix.

I want to smack the RSPCA guy. There is a place for showing-just because some people are idiots does not mean it should be condemned. A lot of the questions scream peta to me.

And getting into the eugenics it really does sound like every debate I have ever been in with a mutt breeder-my side is referred to as hitler supporters

I really wish it would have been called something more like " BAD DOG BREEDERS AND WHY TO RESEARCH"

I guess that I should have taken care in each post to clearly state Canine Eugenics...not Eugenics (which is your Hitler reference).
I do agree with your point on the title and actually with some of the slants, but the facts are the facts and what was presented was certainly not anything like PETA's garbage.

I'm not sure why anyone, responsible breeder, pet owner (purebred or mutt), would not want to know what's really going on.

 

[adojrts]

I am going to state what I have believed for many many years (LauraLeigh can back me up with some of the chats we've had as breeders).
This is far more common that anyone wants to believe and I do believe it does represent the majority of breeders and with breeds across the board.
It is terrible that top breeders who are often mentors in there breed play this game and justify their actions as bettering their breed yada yada yada.
I hate the showing/breeding game and this is just one of the reasons why. And its justified for the sake of a bloody ribbon and Titles...........

Give me a working dog any day and a working dog breeder that does genetic testing etc.
I have known breeders that are mentors to so many people, people beat down their doors for pups and stud services......and those same breeders have said to me............'It's not their job to educate people'. Good grief and who's job is it?????

Or another favorite of mine.........breed BEFORE something shows up.

Or the breeder that flipped out because someone else told me about the PPL that she should told me about BEFORE I bred my bitch to her stud, especially since I asked repeatedly.
Of course that breeder wasn't concerned about anything except who told me, which I told her it didn't matter WHO to told me when she should have.
Of course, I had a devil of a time placing that litter (I petted them all with iron clad s/n contracts) because I told everyone about the risk of PPL.

Not surprised in the least and I hope it makes people open their eyes..........

 

[ufimych]

This is one reason to prefer a dog of an aboriginal breed. Aboriginal breeds have a history since stone age, unique in every country, had been bred without shows, not pedigreed, but they are dogs of the purpose. Unfortunately, they are rapidly disappearing worldwide, because of expansion o dog show culture and fashion for pedigreed breeds. They are the same everywhere, in every city, like Coca Cola is. Join us in PADS (Primitive Aboriginal Breed Society).