Docking

[Equinox]

I saw the thread, and thought it was all rather absurd, too.

Like already stated, it doesn't make sense from an evolutionary standpoint. A dog with less nerves in its tail or ears does NOT have a better chance of surviving to adulthood and being more capable or worthy of reproducing. Changes to a species/breed/type and evolution occurs when a certain trait/mutation allows the animal (or organism) to survive long enough and well enough to produce a larger number of off spring with similar traits.

If I have two Rottweiler puppies, one "without a nervous system in the tail" and one with, and dock them both, the one originally without the nervous system in the tail (as the poster put it), is not going to have an much larger chance to survive to be bred, or bred more often than it's counterpart with the nerves in the tail because of this trait.

 

[Laurelin]

There was a study done in one of the veterinary journals we get at work. It said dogs with docked tails get fewer tail injuries than undocked dogs. I'm not even kidding. I wonder how much of a grant they got to do that study

Gavroche definitely has a nervous system in his tail. If anything, he's more sensitive than other dogs I've been around. That's probably due at least in part to not having much hair on it to cushion it. He also has some mild stud tail. He certainly knows how to wag his tail!

Lmao, that's hilarious! Who would've thunk it?

And I brought up Lamarck first! I should get a cookie.

 

[JennSLK]

Laur - How about one of the Choc Fudge with Cream Cheese icing cupcakes I just made?

 

[Laurelin]

Ummm yeah that sounds about right.

 

[JennSLK]

***Hands one to Laur***

 

[Whisper]

From an evolutionary standpoint that makes absolutely no sense. Physically and aesthetically modifying the body is not going to change the genetics involved. Ridiculous.

Um, yeah, exactly.

We've had a lot of debates here about cropping and docking here on Chaz, and that's probably the silliest argument I've ever heard.

Originally Posted by Saeleofu

There was a study done in one of the veterinary journals we get at work. It said dogs with docked tails get fewer tail injuries than undocked dogs. I'm not even kidding. I wonder how much of a grant they got to do that study

Captain Obvious to the rescue again!

ETA: Me wants a cupcake.

 

[JennSLK]

LOL Whisper. I will fedex yu one tomorrow. Send me your addy.

 

[corgipower]

There was a study done in one of the veterinary journals we get at work. It said dogs with docked tails get fewer tail injuries than undocked dogs. I'm not even kidding. I wonder how much of a grant they got to do that study

:rofl1::rofl1::rofl1::rofl1::rofl1:

My faith in the veterinary community has dropped significantly.

I also now have coffee spewed all over the computer.

 

[Saeleofu]

I seriously need to find that journal (or at least the name of it so I can find it online) and scan in the article...I mean, REALLY? You're getting PAID for this? :rofl1:

It was very recent too...like within the past 2-3 weeks, tops.

 

[Hillside]

*pokes head into thread*

Ooh! There are cupcakes! Can I have one?

 

[Doberluv]

If I cut my finger off, my future children will not have limited feeling in their fingers because I physically removed mine...that's the funniest bunch of BS I've ever read.

Actually, there are studies (don't know where they are, but I'm sure they're somewhere ) that show dogs have a highly developed and extraordinarily sophisticated sense of empathy. So, when they see other dogs with their tails gone, they can really relate to what they must be feeling or not feeling. Since the part of the tail that is not there....doesn't feel, these observant and empathetic dogs looking on, don't feel a thing on their own tails. THAT, my friends is the true explanation.

 

[corgipower]

Actually, there are studies (don't know where they are, but I'm sure they're somewhere ) that show dogs have a highly developed and extraordinarily sophisticated sense of empathy. So, when they see other dogs with their tails gone, they can really relate to what they must be feeling or not feeling. Since the part of the tail that is not there....doesn't feel, these observant and empathetic dogs looking on, don't feel a thing on their own tails. THAT, my friends is the true explanation.

Nice!!

 

[ACooper]

:rofl1:

I needed a giggle this morning, and this thread supplied it nicely! hahahaha

Side note, maybe that's why we don't have any feeling in our hair? Too many generations cutting it before we came along? *ponders*

Now where are the cupcakes? Hmmmmm?

 

[joce]

Didn't read the whole thread.....


In no way do they have no feelings in tails after generations of being docked.

What the person may have been told and misunderstood is more to the line of if you do not breed for a tail for years you may end up with a dog with an extremely brittle tail vs one thats going to take a moderate amount of abuse that dogs usually receive(doors,walls,happy tail etc). I have seen many a dobe mix with happy tail-but then again just as many labs with it as well

I have nothing against docking. I prefer my dogs without tails. My poor husky had a terrible time with hers when she was younger and I have gone tailess after that. Chazs heeler pup has had a couple run ins with the horses but other than that its not to bad as he is to quick to get caught in a door

(although maybe happy tail is only in dogs with screwed up nervous systems in their tails-I have seen so many dogs with blood flying,hair gone just wagging and happy. When my husky hurt her tail she would cry when it moved and at twelve does not like it touched still)

 

[Inga]

Though I do not believe for a second that just because generations of Rottweiler's have been docked that the pups grow up without feeling in their tails. That said, I did have an adult Rottweiler with a tail that had to be docked because of chronic tail injuries. He had a bad case of happy tail, he also got his tail smashed once and had it burned in a camp fire. He simply did not have feeling in his tail like normal dogs. It was not my will to have his tail cut off, especially as an adult but the vet insisted, it was the only option after so many injuries.

Everything I read was that once docked, he would have great pain as it is an amputation of a limb much like losing a leg. He didn't seem to have any pain. I know dogs are stoic but in his case, he really didn't have sensation in that area. He went on to live a nice long life and never had another injury. For that reason, it was worth it for him.

I do not advocate docking adult dogs but I am not against it for pups 3 days old. You can call me an animal abuser if you want. I am pro breeders choice on this topic.

 

[Pops2]

i don't know about physical traits but for intangible qualities like nose & drive to do specific jobs lamarck may be right. it has certainly born out in various hunting dogs. by training dogs to run a specific game (& ONLY that game) and breeding from the best at that game, over time you develop a predisposition in MOST of the line to run that game & ignore others so that it become unnecessary to train them to that animal.

 

[Saeleofu]

i don't know about physical traits but for intangible qualities like nose & drive to do specific jobs lamarck may be right. it has certainly born out in various hunting dogs. by training dogs to run a specific game (& ONLY that game) and breeding from the best at that game, over time you develop a predisposition in MOST of the line to run that game & ignore others so that it become unnecessary to train them to that animal.

That's not Lamarck. That's natural selection...except not natural You're intentionally selecting for the ability to hunt for the given species.

 

[Pops2]

a dog that runs a coon well has all the traits to run bear or hogs and so you're imprinting a LEARNED trait to run a specific game.
same for a bobcat dog, it has all the tools to run grey fox, coyote & mt lion, but the very best bobcat dogs aren't taught bob is what they want. OTH their great grand parents great grandparents were. you are genetically passing a LEARNED trait which is "theoretically" not possible.

 

[Saeleofu]

you are genetically passing a LEARNED trait which is "theoretically" not possible.

It's not just "theoretically" not possible, it's really NOT possible to pass on learned traits.

Let me try to make an example to try to clarify...say, you want a dog to hunt a coyote. You train your dogs to hunt coyote, and breed the best. Then in the next generation you again train and breed the best, and so on. Even tually you have some awesome coyote dogs. Why? The dogs that have the best coyote hunting abilities were selected for, and the others are weeded out. Can they hunt other stuff? Sure - hunting is hunting. But coyote is their "specialty."

Alternately, say you breed dogs specifically for obedience. You breed and train and breed and train, and eventually you have some awesome obedience dogs. Can they do rally? Sure. Rally is kind of like obedience. If a dog can get a CD, they can get an RN. They have the obedience ability there. Can they do agility? Maybe, maybe not. They may be able to do it, but not necessarily well. Agility requires different skills than obedience.

Another example...say you're breeding horses. You breed horses to jump. You breed and train and breed and train and so one, and you get some excellent jumpers. Can they run? Sure.

My point is, you don't know what a dog or horse or any other animal is capable of until you specifically train for it. You choose the animals that are best at what you trained, and they'll pass on that ability. If you're not selecting for another trait, it will be lost, to an extent. Some traits are harder to lose than others. The more closely related the trait is to the trait you are selecting for, the less likely it is to be lost.

I don't know if that made much sense or if it was just rambling...it's late

ETA: Alternately, learned traits can be passed on by raising the dogs with dogs that have learned said trait. Dogs learn from each other, so if they're raised together their learned traits will inevitable rub off on each other. Plus their parents have the ability to teach said skills. It's not a matter of genetics, but instead a social learning type thing.

 

[Pops2]

you're missing my point. if i take a dog from a long line of bobcat dogs it has ALL the traits to be a good coyote dog & vice versa. but despite being raised & trained they may well refuse to run what you're trying to run & only run the game their great grandparents' grandparents were TRAINED to run. some dogs will run anything you train them on others will only run what their heart tells them to and no amount of correction will change them. not every line will do this & not every dog in lines known for it will do it. but you can get dogs w/ 20+ generations of bobcat dogs behind them & all you have to do is take them to the woods in good cat country & they will train themselves as well or better than you could. in such cases over time a learned or trained trait becomes genetic.