Do you like dogs with docked tails?

[Doberluv]

We can walk our dogs offleash and own any breed we want (since a couple of months), and no we can't hunt with our dogs. Only retrieving. But then I guess US and Canada have a lot more wildlife and bigger area's that are suitable for hunting then the Netherlands.

And you feel priveleged and lucky, right? See....everyone is getting brainwashed into thinking that if their government allows them to do something, they are so lucky. My question is: WHY SHOULDN'T YOU BE ALLOWED to have any breed of dog you want whether it has a docked tail or not? Why should some other human beings dictate things like that to you? As long as it's not interferring in the rights of others. I can sort of understand about the hunting if your wild life is almost gone. But then that is what local governement is for or rather, organizations such as fish and game. That is closer to the directing from the people. I understand about the need for laws, some regulations and so forth. But it's going way too far.

 

[Dekka]

Very good post Carrie!!

And this bears repeating!

See....everyone is getting brainwashed into thinking that if their government allows them to do something, they are so lucky.

 

[Doberluv]

Docking bans bother me on one very selfish level (among others)...as I stated before, Aussies are a docked breed in regards to those pups who weren't born with a NBT. There are those out there who see no problem requiring owners of NBT dogs to carry papers stating such a fact. I find that ridiculous beyond measure. There are those who would like to see the same thing occur here in the US. See above for my opinion on that.

Unbelievably ridiculous beyond measure! See? Other people sticking their nose in where it doesn't belong and dictating to everyone else how they want little, insignificant things to be.

 

[corgipower]

ACK!!! Cuteness! I didn't know dobe puppies engaged in food fights!

**throws mashed potatoes
opcorn:

 

[GlassOnion]

Didn't read the whole thread (will probably go back though) but have to say no I don't like docked tails.

And I don't agree with docked tails being a breed 'standard'. How can it be standard when it's completely unnatural? But I guess it's better then the breeders breeding for extremely short tails and screwing the breed up.

 

[Doberluv]

Didn't read the whole thread (will probably go back though) but have to say no I don't like docked tails.

And I don't agree with docked tails being a breed 'standard'. How can it be standard when it's completely unnatural? But I guess it's better then the breeders breeding for extremely short tails and screwing the breed up.

What's natural about anything to do with domestic dogs since humans started messing with them...artificially selective breeding for all kinds of things? What's good about purposely breeding for mutations like bracheocephalic and achondroplastic drawfism? (for example) These dogs have reproductive problems giving birth. They couldn't even reproduce on their own in many cases. It is very common for bracheocephalic breeds to have a whole host of serious eye conditions, breathing difficulties among other issues.

As we all know, most breeds which were designed and manipulated by humans are in big, big trouble health wise. Our purebred dogs could conceivably implode and become extinct, the gene pool is so limited. Humans caused it.

What's the big difference in something that takes a few generations to change and something that is changed in the time it takes to snip a pair of clippers? I see a big difference. If docking tails caused pain, which it apparently doesn't or at least not much, how long does the pain or discomfort last? A few seconds? A few minutes? How long do dogs have to edure purposely being bred to be all screwed up? Which do you think they'd rather live with?

Liking the looks of docked tails or non-docked tails is certainly personal preference just like preferring a pull over to a cardigan sweater is personal preference. But to bring in the argument of natural vs. unnatural... or moral vs. immoral where docking is concerned is beyond my ability to understand.

 

[GlassOnion]

What's natural about anything to do with domestic dogs since humans started messing with them...artificially selective breeding for all kinds of things? What's good about purposely breeding for mutations like bracheocephalic and achondroplastic drawfism? (for example) These dogs have reproductive problems giving birth. They couldn't even reproduce on their own in many cases. It is very common for bracheocephalic breeds to have a whole host of serious eye conditions, breathing difficulties among other issues.

Uh, where did I say I support breeding animals with genetic defects?

Obviously dogs have been 'unnaturally' selected into different breeds but that was done for their work. If the tail endangers their work and it's thus in the dogs best interest to have it taken off, then have at it.

If it's just for aesthetic looks (IE your dog doesn't work in the conditions that warrant the tail being removed) then I don't see any valid reason to do it. Tail problems aren't common enough to warrant it.


And whoever compared tail docking to spaying/neutering, surely you jest?
You can't see how the two differ?

 

[Cheetah]

Shippo has a docked tail soooooo... >^^;<

 

[happyhound]

If it's just for aesthetic looks (IE your dog doesn't work in the conditions that warrant the tail being removed) then I don't see any valid reason to do it. Tail problems aren't common enough to warrant it.

At 3 days, you can't tell which puppy is going to a non working home. They all have to be done at that time.

 

[CaliTerp07]

At 3 days, you can't tell which puppy is going to a non working home. They all have to be done at that time.

Forgive me, I've never purchased or bred puppies, so maybe I'm way off.

Don't 'good' breeders have homes lined up for the puppies ahead of time? Wouldn't you know if you were sending dogs to pet homes or working homes? (I understand if you have 50% of either, you may dock 'em all for ease, but is that always the case?)

 

[happyhound]

Forgive me, I've never purchased or bred puppies, so maybe I'm way off.

Don't 'good' breeders have homes lined up for the puppies ahead of time? Wouldn't you know if you were sending dogs to pet homes or working homes? (I understand if you have 50% of either, you may dock 'em all for ease, but is that always the case?)

Yes, a litter may be going to both pet and working homes. But are potential owners supposed to pick their pup merely based on color or sex and not temperament/personality/suitability etc for their new home/people?

 

[GlassOnion]

Then I suppose it's unavoidable unless you know it's all going to show or pet people.

But even then the show people are going to want it docked just because that's the way it's always been done.

Shame.

 

[CaliTerp07]

Yes, a litter may be going to both pet and working homes. But are potential owners supposed to pick their pup merely based on color or sex and not temperament/personality/suitability etc for their new home/people?

No, that makes total sense.

I guess I just find it hard to believe that in the thousands of litters of dogs born each year, there is at least 1 prospective working home in each bunch. Maybe it's because I grew up in southern california, as far away from farms or forests as you can get (so all dogs were house pets)?

If you are a responsible breeder, and have a working home lined up for your dog where docking is done for the safety of the puppy, okay, I'm sold. BUT, I still maintain that the majority of litters are docked because people expect to see rotties and dobes with nubbly tails...and that still strikes me as sad

 

[Zoom]

You can have homes lined up without knowing which pup is going to which home. Most breeders try to match up personalities to the best home after figuring out which dogs are going to be more suited to performance and which to pet.

 

[Doberluv]

You didn't say you supported breeding defects. You just said how unnatural docking was. So, I gathered that you were against anything unnatural being done to their bodies. That's why I brought up the incongruousness of being pro-natural when humans have done astronomically worse things to dogs which are not natural. So, which is worse, breeding defects that harm dogs or docking tails?

Spaying and neutering hurts worse than tail docking. S/N is done for a purpose. Docking is done for a purpose. Whether or not everyone has the same opinion about the purpose, puts the same weight or value on each or even has their facts straight about the purpose is...well......a matter of opinion I guess. There's some documentation about health hazzards in S/N as well as benefits. It's not all cut and dry. There is some controversy. So, comparing the two doesn't have to be in jest. It just possibly might be something the poster was serious about.

The fact is that it's my right, my dog and no one else's business. It is not abuse. And for the time being, legal where I live. And yes, I like the docked tails on breeds that were designed not to have appendages hanging off of them.

 

[GlassOnion]

No, spaying and neutering is done to prevent unwanted animals from becoming more common than they are. Yes, it hurts more. Probably more than docking. But it has more purpose (and a greater purpose) than docking.


Docking, if it's done for work, is fine. I'd rather dock the dog when it's a few days old than remove a necrotic tail - and dealing with associated infections - that was damaged from being drug through the brush (or rubble or whatever you're using your dog for).

But how many people with docked animals do you know that work their dogs in such situations? I'd be willing to bet that in 90% of the cases (and I'll bet it's higher) in the US (probably elsewhere as well) it's done for purely cosmetic appeal because 'that's how it's always been'.

That, I don't agree with.

You just said how unnatural docking was. So, I gathered that you were against anything unnatural being done to their bodies. That's why I brought up the incongruousness of being pro-natural when humans have done astronomically worse things to dogs which are not natural. So, which is worse, breeding defects that harm dogs or docking tails?

I just don't see how a docked tail can be considered 'standard' when it's, well, not.

And if a genetic disorder, especially a detrimental one, was considered standard in a dog breed I wouldn't support that either.

But then again, a ton of people love those short little bulldog noses because 'that's how it's always been'.

 

[Dekka]

No, spaying and neutering is done to prevent unwanted animals from becoming more common than they are. Yes, it hurts more. Probably more than docking. But it has more purpose (and a greater purpose) than docking.

No spaying and neutering is for the convenience of the owners. You are using surgery to manage what can be done with dilligent dog ownership. There are very few reasons to s/n other than for the convenience.

It was not in jest. Its more convient to have a short tail on a working dog, saves effort treating wounds etc... it is more convenient to not have to worry about a dog coming into heat...

I have a house of mostly intact dogs (7 dogs 5 intact) its not necessary to s/n to stop unwanted litters. It is just more convenient to do so...

 

[GlassOnion]

Sorry but not everyone keeps their dogs inside. I do, but know others who don't. They don't keep them tethered up either, they're free to roam the yard.

But you know as well as I do that a male intact dog will do much of anything to get to a female in heat. So it's just 'convenient' for them to fix their dog? Because they don't want it in the house, can't have it in the house (allergies), or some other reason? Should they just stake it out in the yard? Give it up if a family member is allergic?

And feral s/n groups. I suppose it's more convenient for them to spay feral cats because....what? The whole over population thing. I guess that is convenient.

 

[Doberluv]

It doesn't matter if the dog is actually doing the work he was bred to do. The fact is that most dogs that were bred to do various jobs have personalities, termperaments, antics and behaviors which make them good at those jobs. Very commonly, those personalities, high energy, high atheleticisim makes them just as prone to injuring their tails as they would be actually doing "the job." In other words, just because they're not doing the exact job doesn't mean they lose their personalities, high drive and energy etc which is normally redirected into some other similar activity.

My Doberman was always doing his job....being there, being ready to protect his person and family. They're always doing their job just by standing by. You never know. Also he was super energetic, sometimes careless when tearing around in the woods for instance, slipping through gates, jumping through brush and branches on our hikes. They're extremely fast runners and can make mistakes sometimes running around the corners of buildings, slamming around objects or whatever.

The wag of my dog's tail could have gotten him into big trouble, I can tell you that. They're thin, long, which causes a big swing which gathers momentum and they don't have much hair. I'd much rather prevent the possibility of serious injury later by having the tail docked painlessly at 2-3 days of age than putting a dog who's prone at risk for a serious injury, infection and/or amputation later in life. It's a no brainer. IMO it's unkind and not very good husbandry for a dog like a Doberman (for example) not to be docked.

 

[Dekka]

Yep some people are irresponsible and it is more CONVENIENT for them to spay and neuter than to acutally be responsible pet owners. I never said I was anti s/n. Just saying it an unnecessary part of dog ownership. Many people are idiots yes.. but the fact of the matter is that pets are undergoing surgery because its easier on people.

I had Snip neutered as it was more convenient for me to do so than to manage him.

Edited to add
GO you need read my WHOLE post

There are very few reasons to s/n other than for the convenience.

... this is one of them..

... feral populations are not 'owned' and a whole other issue.