Daddy the pitbull passes the torch

[Amstaffer]

Amstaffer,
Seriously, knock it off.

You misquoted me and started it.

I have made my views on pit bulls, their history, the importance of properly educating people about them, and their DA, WELL known here.

Find someone else to quote and/or misquote.

Leave me out of this.
I do not wish to argue with you so please leave me alone.
And honestly, I do not give a rat's a$$ what your views on DA are.
I'm just d@mn glad you aren't handling MY dog.

Knock what off? pointing out the hypocrisy of you arguments and faulty logic

I never misquoted you, I simply asked you to explain a flowery ambiguous statement.

I will "leave you alone" but I will respond to post directed to me that twist what I say or complete misinterpret me.

and your last two comments dang near broke my heart

You do have the ability to "ignore" any and all posts I make. It is an option on this board.

 

[Amstaffer]

hehehehehe

Very funny episode

 

[Chewbecca]

Knock what off? pointing out the hypocrisy of you arguments and faulty logic

I never misquoted you, I simply asked you to explain a flowery ambiguous statement.

I will "leave you alone" but I will respond to post directed to me that twist what I say or complete misinterpret me.

and your last two comments dang near broke my heart

You do have the ability to "ignore" any and all posts I make. It is an option on this board.

It's also an option to respect others on this board and NOT start crap with them. THAT'S that option you should have started with.
Do NOT try to act like you weren't starting crap with me when you quoted me in an instigatory way which is INDICATIVE of the desire to START CRAP with someone.
And you know it, Amstaffer.

I didn't twist anything, Mister.
You did.
Your words speak for themselves and for you.

One minute you do not think that DA is acceptable, and the next it's quite ok and acceptable.
I do not understand you, and believe ME, that's ok.
Just leave me alone.

 

[Zoom]

I don't think that breeding out DA will leave you with the same ABPT breed, just like breeding the herding instinct out of Aussies will leave you with a true Aussie. The inherent drives within each breed are part of what MAKES that breed so special to the enthusiasts.

Do I sometimes wish I could take my dog to a crowded and active dog event and not have him deafen everyone within a certain radius? Yeah, that would be nice. But control barking is part of this breed and it's just something I as an Aussie person learn to deal with and control. I've seen the dogs from solid showlines that HAVE had most of their herding instinct bred out of them and you know what? They're hardly the same breed anymore. That special *something* is missing.

And a good ABPT should suck at Schutz and PSA, as those drives are rather antithetical to what has been bred into them (i.e. the lack of willingness to EVER lay teeth on a human).

 

[Amstaffer]

It's also an option to respect others on this board and NOT start crap with them. THAT'S that option you should have started with.
Do NOT try to act like you weren't starting crap with me when you quoted me in an instigatory way which is INDICATIVE of the desire to START CRAP with someone.
And you know it, Amstaffer.

I didn't twist anything, Mister.
You did.
Your words speak for themselves and for you.

One minute you do not think that DA is acceptable, and the next it's quite ok and acceptable.
I do not understand you, and believe ME, that's ok.
Just leave me alone.

I will the others readers of your post and mine decide who is twisting who...but you just did it again to me.


One minute you do not think that DA is acceptable, and the next it's quite ok and acceptable.

where did you get that? I don't like DA but I acknowledge it. If I could wave a magic wand I would remove DA from all dogs as I think it has no valid purpose. You can acknowledge something without liking it.

"You say leave me alone" I am not after you. I am simply responding to comments towards me.

I have no desire to "Start Crap" but I will defend my statements and ideas.

 

[Renee750il]

I don't think that breeding out DA will leave you with the same ABPT breed, just like breeding the herding instinct out of Aussies will leave you with a true Aussie. The inherent drives within each breed are part of what MAKES that breed so special to the enthusiasts.

Do I sometimes wish I could take my dog to a crowded and active dog event and not have him deafen everyone within a certain radius? Yeah, that would be nice. But control barking is part of this breed and it's just something I as an Aussie person learn to deal with and control. I've seen the dogs from solid showlines that HAVE had most of their herding instinct bred out of them and you know what? They're hardly the same breed anymore. That special *something* is missing.

And a good ABPT should suck at Schutz and PSA, as those drives are rather antithetical to what has been bred into them (i.e. the lack of willingness to EVER lay teeth on a human).

Superb point. I'm mortified that I missed it!

 

[Amstaffer]

And a good ABPT should suck at Schutz and PSA, as those drives are rather antithetical to what has been bred into them (i.e. the lack of willingness to EVER lay teeth on a human).

Actually the APBTs I have seen do Sch and PSA really seem to view it as a sport. They can be best friends with decoys 2 minutes afterward. The main reason I brought that up was because it show that there are APBTs who can do Schutzhund (which requires dogs to be undistracted by other dogs passing by) and yet they have all the drive and tenacity to be a great working dog.

 

[corgipower]

And a good ABPT should suck at Schutz and PSA, as those drives are rather antithetical to what has been bred into them (i.e. the lack of willingness to EVER lay teeth on a human).

Schutzhund and PSA and other protection sport have nothing to do with laying teeth on a human. The helper is a 200 pound tug toy. But when the sleeve or suit comes off, there's not biting. Unless a dog is specifically trained to bite without the gear -- hidden sleeves/muzzle agitiation -- many dogs have a difficult time if they're in a situation with a real threat.

The main reason I brought that up was because it show that there are APBTs who can do Schutzhund (which requires dogs to be undistracted by other dogs passing by) and yet they have all the drive and tenacity to be a great working dog.

A lot of dogs doing Sch, PSA, etc. are DA. When they're on the field and focused on the work at hand, that's what they're focused on, not on the other dogs.

 

[Amstaffer]

Schutzhund and PSA and other protection sport have nothing to do with laying teeth on a human. The helper is a 200 pound tug toy. But when the sleeve or suit comes off, there's not biting. Unless a dog is specifically trained to bite without the gear -- hidden sleeves/muzzle agitiation -- many dogs have a difficult time if they're in a situation with a real threat.



A lot of dogs doing Sch, PSA, etc. are DA. When they're on the field and focused on the work at hand, that's what they're focused on, not on the other dogs.

True a lot are...GSD, Mals etc... but a lot of dogs doing a lot of things are DA.

My point was there are APBTs with excellent drive and "Spark" who can be trusted off leash around other dogs and often those other dogs are dominant acting intact males. Also some of those drivey APBT are not always DA, so Drive and spark can exist without DA.

 

[Laurelin]

When you're looking at any bred the inherent drives and temperament are what makes the breed. I don't think you can breed out DA and end up with the same dog. There are many traits found in many breeds that make them dangerous or difficult in the wrong hands but it doesn't mean those traits should go because the average owner can't deal with them. Herders in an improper home can be a real menace. Many people that get bcs and other herding breeds don't know how to handle their drives. They end up with dogs that are reactive, biting and just out of control. It doesn't mean those drives should go, it means people need to better understand their dogs and their dogs drives.

If you want a dog park going dog, why would you get a breed that is known for being DA?

 

[elegy]

The main reason I brought that up was because it show that there are APBTs who can do Schutzhund (which requires dogs to be undistracted by other dogs passing by) and yet they have all the drive and tenacity to be a great working dog.

just because a dog is DA doesn't mean their brains fall out at the sight of another dog. DA does not equal out of control.

 

[corgipower]

My point was there are APBTs with excellent drive and "Spark" who can be trusted off leash around other dogs and often those other dogs are dominant acting intact males. Also some of those drivey APBT are not always DA, so Drive and spark can exist without DA.

Trusted off leash around other dogs while focused on their work and not in each others face.

 

[Amstaffer]

When you're looking at any bred the inherent drives and temperament are what makes the breed. I don't think you can breed out DA and end up with the same dog. There are many traits found in many breeds that make them dangerous or difficult in the wrong hands but it doesn't mean those traits should go because the average owner can't deal with them. Herders in an improper home can be a real menace.

But those traits have functional and legal purposes

 

[Amstaffer]

just because a dog is DA doesn't mean their brains fall out at the sight of another dog. DA does not equal out of control.

True that is where the training part comes in

 

[Danegirl2208]

Sorry to come out of the woodwork but I can never pass up a good bulldog debate lol

On the topic of breeding out DA- firstly someone above mentioned something about breeders breeding for DA...I honestly can't think of one good breeder of these dogs that is breeding FOR DA...it's just something that comes along with the package so to speak.

Most people who can casually say "why don't we just breed out DA" have little understanding of canine genetics. Sorry to say- but it is not that simple. You can try your damndest to cover it up...but you aren't ever really "getting rid of it." In the process all you will have done is sacrafice other traits that we have come to know and love...ultimately changing the breed as we know it.

If I could wave a magic wand I would remove DA from all dogs as I think it has no valid purpose.

Just for debates sake- let's say we DO have that magic wand. We wave it and DA is magically gone from the breed. Besides changing the breed, what have we done? Made them easier to own? (god knows we need THAT)...John Doe can now take his "pittie wittie poo" to the dog park?... You can now take them to petsmart and on playdates without having to worry about them acting like bulldogs?


No thanks. It's honestly not worth it to me as a fancier of the breed. These dogs don't need to be any easier to own. If I want an easy to handle breed, then i'll find one. The idea of wanting to change a breed to make them more "appealing" in the eyes of the public, or to make them "easier" to own truly boggles my mind...and makes me a bit sick to my stomach to be honest.

 

[Laurelin]

But those traits have functional and legal purposes

But that doesn't make them any easier to deal with in a pet home. To me it is the same thing. Most herding breed dogs will not see a sheep in their life but will be pets. Should there exist 'pet lines' with those traits diminished? Essentially you end up with a new and different breed (look at a border collie and then a show line border collie, definitely not the same animal). The same thing would happen to the pit bull if you intentionally bred it away from its drives.

Besides if you were focusing on removing the one aspect of DA, you'd likely lose a lot more than just the DA. Any time you breed for one trait, others get sidelined and lost as well.

 

[Sweet72947]

You can't breed out the DA without breeding out the fire that burns in our dogs, and we love that about them. Breeding the DA out of the APBT would be as tragic as breeding the ojeriza out of the Fila.

DA is not the be-all end-all of the APBT. If you do your research, you CAN find old pictures of dogs who were champions in the pit laying around with other dogs. It was like they knew when to work, and when to rest. What was valued was not a bloodlust for other dogs, but that willingness to keep going no matter what, to never give up, "never say die".

I have seen this drive exist separately from DA. One example is a dog named Peachy who used to live at FOHA. I swear she at least had bull terrier in her, but she was a mutt, and had as much p1ss and vinegar in her as you'd ever want in an APBT. She was definitely a "never say die" sort of dog. I remember playing with her with the flirt pole I made, and she wouldn't quit for anything (never had time to teach her an "out"), not even when she was obviously in need of a drink and a rest. The only way I got her to let go was to throw a ball so that she would let go to chase it, and throw the flirt pole over the side of the exercise area. She was not DA in the least. Here's her pic: http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k229/Sweet72947/Dogs/FOHA Dogs/peachie2.jpg

On the converse, I have seen DA APBTs who do not have the drive the breed should have. There is a dog at FOHA now who's name is Matt, and he has no drive, other than go after other dogs. He loves people, is completely trustworthy with all ages of people, just not other animals. Take him in the exercise area, he just walks around and sniffs, has no interest in toys, really.

So I do believe that DA and the drives are, in a way, separate entities. Do they often exist separately in APBTs (or terriers in general)? No. You can have one without the other, but more often than not, they come as a packaged deal.

 

[Danegirl2208]

DA is not the be-all end-all of the APBT.

and I don't know one true fancier of this breed that believes that.

If you do your research, you CAN find old pictures of dogs who were champions in the pit laying around with other dogs. It was like they knew when to work, and when to rest. What was valued was not a bloodlust for other dogs, but that willingness to keep going no matter what, to never give up, "never say die".

Yes there were quite a few match dogs that tolerated other animals (even small animals in some cases). I'd say they were more of an exception then a rule though.

Yes, what was valued was Gameness...and a good breeder/fancier of this breed should know DA and Gameness are two seperate things entirely. Any one denying that does not know this breed very well at all. A game dog is not always DA and a DA dog is, obviously, not always game. Some of the most DA dogs I have come across would tuck tail and run if put into the situation these dogs were bred for...so yes, it goes a lot deeper then DA.

I can't speak for others, but what I am trying to get at here is that you can't "breed out" DA without sacraficing other traits that we have come to know and love in this breed. Something like this is not nearly as simple as so many seem to think it is. Canine genetics as a whole are fairly complicated- it isn't that black and white sorry to say.

If you want an example take a look at the Amstaff. A breed who's fanciers wanted to distance themselves from the pit and ultimately everything that came along with it (gameness, DA, performance, ect. ect.)...in the end all we are left with is a different breed (and, whoops, Amstaffs still have a high potential for DA- so much for that eh? lol)

 

[Renee750il]

There are some like that. Tallulah can do that sometimes, and she's fine with Kharma and Bimmer, but she's obviously from old game lines around here and you can see the gleam in her eye when she sees certain types of dogs. She doesn't seem to have any desire to bother smaller dogs, even when they're growling at her, or dogs that aren't showing any signs of provocative or aggressive behavior toward her . . . but if there's one her size -- or larger -- that growls or lunges at her or shows too much interest, she's ready to rock and roll, dancing on her back legs, doing the Pittie War Squeal, the whole bit. It's part of her, part of that fire that burns in her that just isn't there in so many dogs. Like when Bimmer "goes wolf" or when Kharma's riled up.

 

[Miakoda]

no, it's not what makes a pit bull a pit bull, but it's a part of the spark, the drive, the tenacity, and the confidence that makes a pit bull a *good* pit bull. and i do not believe that you can separate out dog aggression and make it go away.

i'm sorry, i don't want to see a good working breed watered down into something nondescript.

dog aggression really doesn't have to be a big deal. honest.

I want to bold that last statement. DA is NOT a big deal. It can easily be managed. It holds no bearing on whether or not your dog is a wonderful member of the family capable of being a blessed friend to you and your children.

I could absolutely care less that my dogs are DA. I am responsible and I don't put them into positions where they can act on it. I don't feel that my dogs have to live in a "doggy pack" to be happy. I don't feel I need my dogs to babysit each other. And I know the triggers and limits to each and every one of my dogs and I act and manage them appropriately.

Why is it so hard? Why do people want these dogs to lose the DA no matter the cost to the breed itself? Why bother with these dogs if one doesn't love and ACCEPT every single part of them?