CM gets bitten... again (vid included)

[Red Chrome]

Here is the video of Hobie. You can't quiet hear him I growling when I am hovering or touching him. It's a quick bad video from my cell phone. He is one that CM would have no hope for as Hobie would do serious damage over a special treat, trash he steals or bones. He doesn't inhibit his bites. That said, it is easily managed. My nephews and friends kids have been trained to leave Hobie alone when he has something he is eating, he won't snatch food from them and doesn't beg. But he doesn't appreciate people being near his bones. He used to be that way around food too, but we slowly worked him out of it. He was rescued at 9 months old and before that he never knew when he would get food again, so the food he did get when he did get it, he guarded. He is an odd animal due to his "breed" but he is SAFE. He deserves to live. He is almost 13 years old. Worth everything and every quirk he has.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBFcGSHQwg8

 

[monkeys23]

Lily is the same way as Hobie. She was dumped and we have no idea how long it was before the ACO picked her up. She's fine with people she knows messing with her stuff and can trade off old dry bones with Scout fine, but I don't take chances at feeding time and the dogs eat in their crates or on their tie-outs.

Some moron my old roommate was messing around with for a while stuck his hand in Lily's crate while she was eating oxtail. Who does that?!?! She was fine, she just grumbled, but man how can an adult be that stupid?

Lily also resource guards me from Scout when we're snuggling in bed. Our compromise is that Scout only gets up on the opposite side of me and voila, no issues. Lot more peaceful resolution.

Spaz tried resource guarding me too. Who knows what his past was. Pretty sure someone dumped him. Anywho, couldn't have lost that little booger if I tried and I guess he saw me as real high value. He also RG-ed toys and we quickly got the point where he was no longer flipping out when the girls played team fetch with him. He was just insecure about having to share and like I said before who knows what he went through before being dumped.

I don't see whats so difficult about letting an animal eat in peace without harrassing them. I'd sure have a violent reaction if someone got between me and a juicy steak lol.

 

[Doberluv]

I just want to add my quick little 2 cents to this thread. I grew up with a resource guarder. He would RG bones, toys and food. I learned very quickly from both him and my parents that dogs are not to be bothered when they have things of value. If I could figure that out as a 5 year old, what the heck is wrong with CM?

Also, Ruby, that comment about cycling through dogs until you find one that is perfect.. once in every 15 years or so, I think was your wording. I have no words for that, I really wish we had the barfing emoticon right now.

Here ya go...at your service.

 

[Doberluv]

I wish there could be some sort of unspoken internet rule where you didn't hop forum to forum trying to **** people off over the same subject. They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. I say on the internet that it also sounds like the definition of trolling. Hit up a CM forum. Then you will find the unfortunately like minded.

Touche`!

:hail:

 

[Fran101]

This is what happens to bullies.

Poor dog.

I have written this post about 2932598 times and that basically sums everything up.

 

[Laurelin]

Seriously. I do not understand these arguments. At all.

It's a dog. It's an animal. Push an animal enough and they will defend themselves. A defensive bite is very different from an aggressive bite. Bites are not all equal. The idea that you must put down any dog that bites is asinine.

 

[Greenmagick]

Seriously. I do not understand these arguments. At all.

It's a dog. It's an animal. Push an animal enough and they will defend themselves. A defensive bite is very different from an aggressive bite. Bites are not all equal. The idea that you must put down any dog that bites is asinine.

lol - 31 pages and its all summed up perfectly right here.

 

[adojrts]

I'LL TYPE THIS IN BOLD SO THAT YOU CAN U N D E R S T A N D.... I WOULD PUT MY DOG DOWN IF SHE AGGRESSIVELY ATTACKED ANY MEMBER OF OUR FAMILY. IF SHE BIT HARD ENOUGH TO DRAW BLOOD. SHE WOULD BE TAKEN TO THE VET, AND BE INJECTED WITH SODIUM PENTATHOL AND SHE WOULD PEACEFULLY PASS AWAY.
The neck breaking thing was more tongue in cheek then anything. Although I'm sure he would shoot her if he had a gun available to him.

Oh we get it, we understand completely. We U N D E R S T A N D just how uneducated and dangerous you are. Those of us with children, that have managed to rehab these maneaters (the dogs not the kids btw), without putting our children or others at harm A N D manage to also teach our children to N O T climb on dogs and basically not be rude clueless kids around animals. And those that don't have kids that have posted in this thread, because of their education and experience about behaviour.............I am sure they will do just fine if they do
You are so busy making your claims, that you are blowing a perfect opportunity to actually learn something from a lot of well educated and experienced dog people.

Just because you don't see it or understand behaviour and training, doesn't mean what all these good people don't. Esp for what 28 pages???

If you think that most of the folks here are anthropomorphizing bleeding hearts that have never rehab dogs or dealt with the 'hard' cases, your wrong.

If I had so many people in one place trying to make a point and I didn't get it? I would be trying to figure out how fast I could get the information and be asking them to at least back it up with research articles and a lot of it.

Which I am sure everyone here can do, it would be a time when flooding was a good thing lmao.

 

[DobeLove]

Are we really allowed to talk about killing dogs by shooting them with a .22 or snapping their neck, exaggeration or not?

 

[Danefied]

Spoken like a childless person... you DON'T understand.

It's not bashing people who don't have kids. It's that one has to admit that they don't understand the bond between a mother and her children and how that is a very unique and powerful thing. There is no explanation. A person has to experience it...
Wow. You guys are very sensitive. You defend a dog to the death but not a child that could potentially get mauled....

I have two children. I teach children, have for 19 years. I’m pretty sure I do understand the mother child bond.
It is because I am a mother that I would not automatically go out and kill a dog for laying a tooth on a child of mine.
Because I am a mother, I know how much my children adore our dogs, and I know how distressing it would feel to them to think they might have contributed to said dog’s death.
Because I am a mother, I want my children to learn dog signals, and know how to protect themselves in homes with dogs who may not be as well behaved and trusting as ours.
Because I am a mother I want my children to be respectful of ALL creatures, including dogs. Harassing a dog until she bites is not respectful. Invading a dog’s space who is trying to eat or sleep or relax is not respectful. My children know - because they have been taught - that respect is a two way street that has NOTHING to do with fear of consequences, and everything to do with an earned esteem.
Because I am a mother, I would never want my children to witness me or my husband exacting capricious, vengeful punishment on a dog; lest they conclude that is an acceptable way to treat any less powerful, dependent that we have chosen to include in our lives. Or worse, lest they internalize that they might be next.
Because I am a mother, I would rather take an opportunity to teach my children about empathy, compassion, and forgiveness than revenge.

Make no mistake, killing a dog who defended his food is not about protecting your family. It is revenge. And no lesson I would ever deliberately teach my children.
Protecting your family means not allowing a baby to toddle up to a dog who has known guarding issues. Not killing the dog for what amounts to normal dog behavior.


Rubygirl, I do understand where you are coming from. It is the same mentality I am surrounded by day in and day out, and it is deeply entrenched in some cultures in this country.
However, I haven’t agreed with it in the 17 years I have lived here, and your arguments on this thread are nothing new to me. Nor have they even remotely swayed me. I see what kids who grow up with this mentality grow in to, and I want no part of that for my own kids.

 

[Laurelin]

My main problem is with the idea that if a dog bites you hard enough to make you bleed then the dog should automatically be killed.

I have NOT rehabbed any serious behavioral cases. And honestly, that proves my point. I've been bitten by three dogs, two of them hard enough to make me bleed, one hard enough to permanently scar my hand, and none have been behavior problems that can't be rehabbed or managed. Bites do not happen in a vacuum. There are events leading up to the bite that need to be taken into account. It is not fair to the dog to say a bite is a bite is a bite. Just because you are a human and a dog made you bleed doesn't mean you have an unstable, horrible danger to society.

Trey was not the most sound dog, however he lived to be 13 1/2 and happy and we were not expert dog owners.

The first bite was one of those that a lot of people would have labelled 'aggressive' but it wasn't. He was about 12 months old and a herding breed puppy. He got overexcited and jumped up and nipped. My three year old sister's face was there and his teeth hit her between the eyes, causing a scratch. How many people would have labelled that as 'aggression'? Said the dog bit their kid in the face?

2nd bite he was 12 years old and partially blind. He always resource guarded a bit from the other dogs. He had a chew. I reached behind him and he turned around and bit my hand. One single bite and release, leaving 4 scars on my hand. You can still count Trey's teeth on the back of my hand and he's been gone 3 years. I really do not think he knew who I was. I should not have come up behind him. I startled him badly. Did he overreact? I would say so. Was he a dangerous menace to society that needed to be shot? I would say definitely no.

It is also a very dangerous train of thought I have seen taken even further. On the other forum it was said that no stable, sound puppy would bite a person hard enough to draw blood. Um... what!? I have seen people label a 8 week old PUPPY as aggressive because he shouldn't draw blood on a human. You could take Beau, who is the most sound dog in the world, and he still bit my dad in the ear when he was a puppy. Overzealous and still learning bite inhibition. It bled badly.

I also have a hard time with the way it's being phrased. 'The dog would be planted.' 'His neck would be broken'. That is a big difference than saying 'I would have the dog put down'. It just is... calloused.

 

[Renee750il]

I have two children. I teach children, have for 19 years. I’m pretty sure I do understand the mother child bond.
It is because I am a mother that I would not automatically go out and kill a dog for laying a tooth on a child of mine.
Because I am a mother, I know how much my children adore our dogs, and I know how distressing it would feel to them to think they might have contributed to said dog’s death.
Because I am a mother, I want my children to learn dog signals, and know how to protect themselves in homes with dogs who may not be as well behaved and trusting as ours.
Because I am a mother I want my children to be respectful of ALL creatures, including dogs. Harassing a dog until she bites is not respectful. Invading a dog’s space who is trying to eat or sleep or relax is not respectful. My children know - because they have been taught - that respect is a two way street that has NOTHING to do with fear of consequences, and everything to do with an earned esteem.
Because I am a mother, I would never want my children to witness me or my husband exacting capricious, vengeful punishment on a dog; lest they conclude that is an acceptable way to treat any less powerful, dependent that we have chosen to include in our lives. Or worse, lest they internalize that they might be next.
Because I am a mother, I would rather take an opportunity to teach my children about empathy, compassion, and forgiveness than revenge.

Make no mistake, killing a dog who defended his food is not about protecting your family. It is revenge. And no lesson I would ever deliberately teach my children.
Protecting your family means not allowing a baby to toddle up to a dog who has known guarding issues. Not killing the dog for what amounts to normal dog behavior.


Rubygirl, I do understand where you are coming from. It is the same mentality I am surrounded by day in and day out, and it is deeply entrenched in some cultures in this country.
However, I haven’t agreed with it in the 17 years I have lived here, and your arguments on this thread are nothing new to me. Nor have they even remotely swayed me. I see what kids who grow up with this mentality grow in to, and I want no part of that for my own kids.

Bears repeating -- along with quite a few others!

 

[Doberluv]

Very good post Danefied.

Just one thing...I'm a mother too. But I wouldn't have to be a mother to be empathetic toward children and caring about them getting hurt or maimed. I wouldn't have to be a mother and have that mother-child bond to want any child, theoretical or real....who came into my home to disrespect my animals or be hurt by them. I don't have to have that bond to care about someone being bitten. Are there really people out there who only care if their own children, with whom they have that "bond" get bitten by a dog??? There are lots of people who don't have their own kids, who have children come into their home....relatives, friends, neighbor kids...So this argument that "You don't understand if you're not a mother," Is completely illogical and skewed. Something is really off here.

Yes, if you're a mother, you should want to teach them not to climb on dogs, pull their ears and all the rest of the stuff toddlers will do if not taught. And of course, most people with dogs, thankfully, have enough sense to teach their children things that won't get them bitten. Otherwise, there'd be a lot more dog bites. Unfortunately, there are some who are clueless.

 

[adojrts]

I have two children. I teach children, have for 19 years. I’m pretty sure I do understand the mother child bond.
It is because I am a mother that I would not automatically go out and kill a dog for laying a tooth on a child of mine.
Because I am a mother, I know how much my children adore our dogs, and I know how distressing it would feel to them to think they might have contributed to said dog’s death.
Because I am a mother, I want my children to learn dog signals, and know how to protect themselves in homes with dogs who may not be as well behaved and trusting as ours.
Because I am a mother I want my children to be respectful of ALL creatures, including dogs. Harassing a dog until she bites is not respectful. Invading a dog’s space who is trying to eat or sleep or relax is not respectful. My children know - because they have been taught - that respect is a two way street that has NOTHING to do with fear of consequences, and everything to do with an earned esteem.
Because I am a mother, I would never want my children to witness me or my husband exacting capricious, vengeful punishment on a dog; lest they conclude that is an acceptable way to treat any less powerful, dependent that we have chosen to include in our lives. Or worse, lest they internalize that they might be next.
Because I am a mother, I would rather take an opportunity to teach my children about empathy, compassion, and forgiveness than revenge.

Make no mistake, killing a dog who defended his food is not about protecting your family. It is revenge. And no lesson I would ever deliberately teach my children.
Protecting your family means not allowing a baby to toddle up to a dog who has known guarding issues. Not killing the dog for what amounts to normal dog behavior.


Rubygirl, I do understand where you are coming from. It is the same mentality I am surrounded by day in and day out, and it is deeply entrenched in some cultures in this country.
However, I haven’t agreed with it in the 17 years I have lived here, and your arguments on this thread are nothing new to me. Nor have they even remotely swayed me. I see what kids who grow up with this mentality grow in to, and I want no part of that for my own kids.

:hail::hail::hail:

 

[rubygirl]

I realize that there are numerous reasons for a dog to bite. I readily admitted that Cesar was pushing that dog. I still feel that the dog was very low threshold... she didn't just bite she attacked. I'm sure it could have been prevented but I'm glad it happened to Cesar and not that little 18 month old baby.
I keep hearing comments like- "well, if parents were allowing their kids around the dog while it was eating then maybe social services should be called". What if the situation was that the baby dropped a piece of his/her food and the dog "claimed" it and attacked the kid?
Or what of the RG is transferred onto toys (then you'll say don't leave dog toys down) well what if the dog claims one of the baby's toys as her own and attacks?
The point I'm trying to make (and have been trying to do so with much attack) is that walking on eggshells around a "family member" isn't fair. It is not in ANY WAY worth the risk. This dog proved that she has a low bite threshold...
If it were my dog, I still maintain that I would have her put down.
If people want to risk it with their aggressive (known manbiters), so be it. I would consider that more of a reason to contact officials for a child's safety...
Flame away... lol

 

[Lyzelle]

I realize that there are numerous reasons for a dog to bite. I readily admitted that Cesar was pushing that dog. I still feel that the dog was very low threshold... she didn't just bite she attacked. I'm sure it could have been prevented but I'm glad it happened to Cesar and not that little 18 month old baby.
I keep hearing comments like- "well, if parents were allowing their kids around the dog while it was eating then maybe social services should be called". What if the situation was that the baby dropped a piece of his/her food and the dog "claimed" it and attacked the kid?
Or what of the RG is transferred onto toys (then you'll say don't leave dog toys down) well what if the dog claims one of the baby's toys as her own and attacks?
The point I'm trying to make (and have been trying to do so with much attack) is that walking on eggshells around a "family member" isn't fair. It is not in ANY WAY worth the risk. This dog proved that she has a low bite threshold...
If it were my dog, I still maintain that I would have her put down.
If people want to risk it with their aggressive (known manbiters), so be it. I would consider that more of a reason to contact officials for a child's safety...
Flame away... lol

You're still missing the point. That is a lack of training, period. Most dogs *can* have a very good leave it command, even resource guarders. But if you give a dog something, it is theirs. Leave them alone.

If you sat down, waiter brought you your food, then came up to you and started pushing you, hitting you, attempting to take your food away. Then wait, and as soon as you touched the food again started the process all over, you'd be pretty and rightfully, pissed. So there's no reason to do it to a dog, either.

 

[rubygirl]

I have two children. I teach children, have for 19 years. I’m pretty sure I do understand the mother child bond.
It is because I am a mother that I would not automatically go out and kill a dog for laying a tooth on a child of mine.
Because I am a mother, I know how much my children adore our dogs, and I know how distressing it would feel to them to think they might have contributed to said dog’s death.
Because I am a mother, I want my children to learn dog signals, and know how to protect themselves in homes with dogs who may not be as well behaved and trusting as ours.
Because I am a mother I want my children to be respectful of ALL creatures, including dogs. Harassing a dog until she bites is not respectful. Invading a dog’s space who is trying to eat or sleep or relax is not respectful. My children know - because they have been taught - that respect is a two way street that has NOTHING to do with fear of consequences, and everything to do with an earned esteem.
Because I am a mother, I would never want my children to witness me or my husband exacting capricious, vengeful punishment on a dog; lest they conclude that is an acceptable way to treat any less powerful, dependent that we have chosen to include in our lives. Or worse, lest they internalize that they might be next.
Because I am a mother, I would rather take an opportunity to teach my children about empathy, compassion, and forgiveness than revenge.

Make no mistake, killing a dog who defended his food is not about protecting your family. It is revenge. And no lesson I would ever deliberately teach my children.
Protecting your family means not allowing a baby to toddle up to a dog who has known guarding issues. Not killing the dog for what amounts to normal dog behavior.


Rubygirl, I do understand where you are coming from. It is the same mentality I am surrounded by day in and day out, and it is deeply entrenched in some cultures in this country.
However, I haven’t agreed with it in the 17 years I have lived here, and your arguments on this thread are nothing new to me. Nor have they even remotely swayed me. I see what kids who grow up with this mentality grow in to, and I want no part of that for my own kids.

And if a dog of yours fatally mauls one of your children or children in your care then you will eat those words.
I would never put a dog over the safety of my children. They can go to sleep knowing that. I think it's far more powerful then anything that you stated above...

 

[Lyzelle]

And if a dog of yours fatally mauls one of your children or children in your care then you will eat those words.
I would never put a dog over the safety of my children. They can go to sleep knowing that. I think it's far more powerful then anything that you stated above...

Again, missed the point. The difference is, these people don't let their kids be idiots around dogs. Their kids are educated on dog behavior. It's respect to the kid and respect to the dog, and everyone's safe.

 

[rubygirl]

You're still missing the point. That is a lack of training, period. Most dogs *can* have a very good leave it command, even resource guarders. But if you give a dog something, it is theirs. Leave them alone.

If you sat down, waiter brought you your food, then came up to you and started pushing you, hitting you, attempting to take your food away. Then wait, and as soon as you touched the food again started the process all over, you'd be pretty and rightfully, pissed. So there's no reason to do it to a dog, either.

Then what is the idea behind NILIF training? Stands for Nothing In Life Is Free... Just because a dog has something between its teeth, doesn't mean a person shouldn't be able to take it away.
I wonder how you guys would do training police k9. How would the release command work? "You got the guy, oh good, just release him when you feel like it"....
Yes I realize the previous owners most likely failed to train this dog. It certainly isn't that child's fault. She would be the one who might pay with her life or at least a limb or two.

 

[rubygirl]

Again, missed the point. The difference is, these people don't let their kids be idiots around dogs. Their kids are educated on dog behavior. It's respect to the kid and respect to the dog, and everyone's safe.

That may very well be but I would love to meet the perfect child. Can you find me one please?