Classified Adverts Vs. BYB's - which is better or worse?

[Lilavati]

Ok, I can see the issue now. I have to admit, if I'd seen the add for Docket as a stud dog, I might well not have responded. One, I wouldn't be sure it was not creepy breeder, but to there is the evaluation issue. Two very good Cardigan breeders (and one Pem breeder about whom I know little) had looked him over and pronounced him sound, healthy, and ready to go to a home. Moreover, someone who knows my needs pretty well thought he was perfect. That's a real advantage to getting a dog through a good rescue, and avoids some of the problems of getting people's rejects . . .

I also am not sure how I would have felt about writing a check to his former owners . . . whereas I don't mind at all with the rescue.

 

[AGonzalez]

Ok I'll give you all a good example of just this...and am waiting in position to be beaten for it already, but I'll share anyway.

Lacey. I responded to an ad on CL because I was looking for a GSD. Guy says he has 4 of them, but has too many dogs, he paid $500 for her (which he showed me the receipt) as a small puppy. He asked $300 for her from me.
I saw the dog, the wallet opened up. I thought $300 was steep...BUT...I couldn't resist her then, being thin, smelling awful...and knowing she was in a house with at least 10 other dogs and was the "underdog".

He wasn't the breeder, gave me her AKC papers with the breeders name on it. Her shots are UTD except the rabies. He didn't make any money on her, he was just overwhelmed. (besides, you figure he had her since she was about 8 weeks old, and the amt of dog food he went through was at least $100 on just her...nah he was on the losing end of that)

I'm still on the fence on whether or not I feel justified doing so and spending that much. I feel good that she's gaining weight, but she does have some issues to work out. Mainly fear of men...she still bristles at my husband when he comes home from work or lunch and growls at him. But he ignores her and she comes up to him after that. She's great with me and the kids though...not very friendly with anyone but family.

I know she was worth $300. She's sweet, smart, loving, and deserved a good home and to be fed and loved. Any dog deserves that.

Here's also something that's an issue for me. Since my husband is in the military, we've gotten this horrible rap for dumping dogs when deployments to Iraq etc come up or we have to move. True enough, a LOT of people dump their dogs when those things happen...we obviously don't (since we dragged Smokey all the way from Arizona to New York with us) but the local rescues just don't adopt to military families if they can absolutely help it because we are so "portable". So that's one venue that's out for me, then there's the local shelters...where most of these dumped dogs from deployments or moves end up...you can imagine what they think when they see a car with military stickers (to get on post) and out of state plates pulling up. But at least when I go there, it's to donate dog food for all the poor doggies I can't bring home. Still doesn't mean they like me down there, I usually get dirty looks like "you're part of the problem" and even had someone that works the local SPCA threaten me once.

Would I have sought out a BYB to find a GSD...no, nor would I have paid them $300 for a puppy. This guy was in over his head and she needed a good home, even with her issues, we still love her and hubby's getting attached...even if she hates him still, lol.

Ok **ducks for cover** I'm ready to be flamed.

 

[Doberluv]

Ok **ducks for cover** I'm ready to be flamed.

I don't see anything wrong with that. The $300 was kind of steep but like you said, he probably didn't make a profit, having cared for the dog all that time. You could tell he wasn't trying to make a business out of this. He just had too many dogs. Hope she gets to liking your hubby better in time. Let him do the feeding when he's around and be the good guy. LOL.

 

[Renee750il]

Ok I'll give you all a good example of just this...and am waiting in position to be beaten for it already, but I'll share anyway.

Lacey. I responded to an ad on CL because I was looking for a GSD. Guy says he has 4 of them, but has too many dogs, he paid $500 for her (which he showed me the receipt) as a small puppy. He asked $300 for her from me.
I saw the dog, the wallet opened up. I thought $300 was steep...BUT...I couldn't resist her then, being thin, smelling awful...and knowing she was in a house with at least 10 other dogs and was the "underdog".

He wasn't the breeder, gave me her AKC papers with the breeders name on it. Her shots are UTD except the rabies. He didn't make any money on her, he was just overwhelmed. (besides, you figure he had her since she was about 8 weeks old, and the amt of dog food he went through was at least $100 on just her...nah he was on the losing end of that)

I'm still on the fence on whether or not I feel justified doing so and spending that much. I feel good that she's gaining weight, but she does have some issues to work out. Mainly fear of men...she still bristles at my husband when he comes home from work or lunch and growls at him. But he ignores her and she comes up to him after that. She's great with me and the kids though...not very friendly with anyone but family.

I know she was worth $300. She's sweet, smart, loving, and deserved a good home and to be fed and loved. Any dog deserves that.

Here's also something that's an issue for me. Since my husband is in the military, we've gotten this horrible rap for dumping dogs when deployments to Iraq etc come up or we have to move. True enough, a LOT of people dump their dogs when those things happen...we obviously don't (since we dragged Smokey all the way from Arizona to New York with us) but the local rescues just don't adopt to military families if they can absolutely help it because we are so "portable". So that's one venue that's out for me, then there's the local shelters...where most of these dumped dogs from deployments or moves end up...you can imagine what they think when they see a car with military stickers (to get on post) and out of state plates pulling up. But at least when I go there, it's to donate dog food for all the poor doggies I can't bring home. Still doesn't mean they like me down there, I usually get dirty looks like "you're part of the problem" and even had someone that works the local SPCA threaten me once.

Would I have sought out a BYB to find a GSD...no, nor would I have paid them $300 for a puppy. This guy was in over his head and she needed a good home, even with her issues, we still love her and hubby's getting attached...even if she hates him still, lol.

Ok **ducks for cover** I'm ready to be flamed.

Sounds like you did a good job of it

And SHAME on those shelter workers for giving you the evil eye . . . You aren't coming in to dump! :madgo: Every person they intimidate or offend is one more who won't come in and rescue from them. They need to remember that and put their personal prejudices aside for the sake of the animals they're supposed to care about.

 

[Doberluv]

I definitely think it needs to be a case by case basis. I could call an ad in the paper and find out that the breeder has all the proof of all possible genetic and otherwise health testing, information on the dogs in the pedigree, proof of her dogs being involved in agility or other competitions where their working ability and soundess is apparent. She might have other past puppy buyers that could tell me how great her puppies turned out. She could ask me a million questions about my home and how the puppy will be raised and come out and do a home check. She could check up on me with my vet to see what he thinks. She might even have a waiting list but advertises because maybe one puppy's arrangement fell through. It just happens I think that the best breeders who often have been doing this for a long time don't rely on newspapers to advertise. They usually wind up finding homes by word of mouth and don't need to advertise. But there could be a breeder who has just gotten into it and isn't that known but still has great dogs.

I just notice that most of the ads in papers look like byb because you see terminology such as tea cup or mini (when there is no such thing) and "AKC" or "papered" or "full blooded" is the biggest selling point.

And no, I don't think going to a shelter is the same thing as getting a dog from a byb if the byb isn't profitting by it...not directly anyhow. Yes, a byb could have sold that puppy to someone who sent it to the shelter...making a space out there somewhere for someone else to buy a puppy from the byb. But that is so indirect and it wouldn't be practical if no dog was adopted from a shelter because most probably do come from byb or woops litters.

 

[Sweet72947]

I don't see anything wrong with that. The $300 was kind of steep but like you said, he probably didn't make a profit, having cared for the dog all that time. You could tell he wasn't trying to make a business out of this. He just had too many dogs. Hope she gets to liking your hubby better in time. Let him do the feeding when he's around and be the good guy. LOL.

Yeah, its similar to the way I got one of my guinea pigs. I responded to an ad on CL that said the poster was rehoming their guinea pigs for $20 a pop because they had too many. When I got there after the owner talked to me she waived the fee. She had left male and female guinea pigs together not realizing how prolific they actually are and ended up with like, 30 guinea pigs or something crazy. I was only too happy to bring a female home with me (she had them all separated when I went up there). She wasn't selling them, she was just in over her head! And she didn't want to just take them to a shelter.

I actually got bitched at on a guinea pig forum for "going to a breeder". Typically I get my 'pigs from shelters, but crazily there hadn't been any in the shelters around here for months. Makes me think I was meant to get this one! I even sent the woman pics and she was delighted that the guinea pig was doing well and was going to show the pics to her kids.

 

[Doberluv]

When I was a kid, my dad raised guinea pigs. We had 22 of them at one time I remember. In nice weather he had a big, huge chicken wire thing on the lawn for them to enjoy some space and sunshine. I don't know what he did with them....if he gave some away to friends or what...he didn't sell them as he had plenty of money. It was just a hobby I guess. But I know it started with one black female named Maude that he was told was a male and came pregnent. I was very young so a lot of this isn't a clear memory.

That's incredible that you got bitched at on a guinea pig forum. Is there an over population of guinae pigs? 50 or so years ago when we had guinea pigs, there was no internet and no one bitched about things like that. Funny how times change.

 

[Dizzy]

Interesting views

I always had it in my head that it was something I wouldn't do..... Purely because I felt it was a quick get out and encouraged irresponsiility.....

I am not sure whether I would do it in the future, because it doesn't feel right, but I may do if I see a particularly lost cause.

I have been planning my impending move today, and couldn't resist looking at the dogs that need homes from the council dog warden kennels...............................

Dog List

 

[Jynx]

I see nothing wrong with paying 300$ for the gsd, I figure if you had gone thru a rescue, you probably would have paid around that amount anyhow..The dog needed to get out of there, you wanted a gsd, and gave her a good home to boot. )

 

[DaVinci]

wow I can't believe what I just read. You have no problem with a 300$ fee for this GSD or any of the other posters but when I posted about getting a APBT for christmas from my sister and said she was 50$ you jumped all over me. Maybe someday I wont be on your guys **** list. I wonder when that will be.

I figure if the pup or dog is in need of a home and you are willing and able to provide that home go for it. Every animal deserves a good forever home be it a shelter dog, dumped dog, parking lot dog or a classified dog. Really I guess all the dogs listed in Dog Fancy or Bark or Dog World are really just classified dogs too.

Since it was pointed out that people lie all the time how do you know that those dogs classified are really all that well cared for. Could be the breeder buys an add charges an outlandish price and is really no more than a glorified BYB. How does one ever know for certain?

 

[ihartgonzo]

when I posted about getting a APBT for christmas from my sister and said she was 50$ you jumped all over me.

$50... from where? From the breeder?

Generally, putting money in a bad breeder's pocket, let alone taking a puppy out of their hands, is a very bad idea.... period. It perpetuates their endless irresponsible cycle.

Since it was pointed out that people lie all the time how do you know that those dogs classified are really all that well cared for. Could be the breeder buys an add charges an outlandish price and is really no more than a glorified BYB. How does one ever know for certain?

I think I said that people lie.

Good breeders are not those who charge outlandish prices. A high price does not equal a good breeder, and anyone who believes that is completely mislead. You know for certain after you do your research... you SEE the health certifications... you SEE the show/working titles and you watch the parents working and meet them with your own eyes... you check out the reputation of the breeder among trusted breeders, and you get references. But that is a bit off topic, because this thread is about buying from a dog owner, rather than the breeder.

So they dump the dog in a shelter, where a rescue pulls them, hopefully before they go insane, and you adopt it, and the original owner goes and buys another dog.

Evaluating a dog is another issue, and if you don't want to deal with problems, you should get one from a rescue with experienced evaluators. But, if I pull a random Labrador from the country shelter, I really have no better idea about the dog than if I got one out of the paper.

Yes... like I said, I'm sure the VAST majority of dogs re-homed on CL do end up in the shelter system, anyway. To me, a person dumping a dog off at a shelter is wayyyy different than a person giving the dog away. Giving the dog away, which usually gives them a sizeable re-homing fee, isn't the same as abandoning the dog. At least not in the minds of most people. Having to drive to a shelter and drop the dog off, and possibly even pay a fee for it, might have more of an impact on that person in the end. Maybe not. Either way, I do not want to be responsible for freeing up that person's home to take in and disgard another dog. I know dozens of people who do it, more than once even, and the way that they recycle those poor dogs sickens me.

Don't get me wrong. I would adopt (an adult dog) from a reputable breeder. I would adopt from family/friends/acquaintences who I can trust, or through a friend's friend or whatever, assuming that the dog was being re-homed for an understandable reason. But a random stranger posting on CL? No, it's not likely. Particularly since the general attitude of all of them is "I need to get rid of my dog within 6 hours. Come get him." I would MUCH rather adopt an unevaluated dog from a shelter, even though I have only adopted from rescues and strongly prefer them. Although shelters usually don't thoroughly evaluate a dog, they do basic testing, they do health checks, and they don't have a good reason to lie - and if they do, you know where to find them. A random person can tell you whatever they want to and can easily lose contact with you.

 

[Sweet72947]

That's incredible that you got bitched at on a guinea pig forum. Is there an over population of guinae pigs? 50 or so years ago when we had guinea pigs, there was no internet and no one bitched about things like that. Funny how times change.

It depends on the area. In my area, there isn't really a guinea pig overpopulation problem, but in other places the shelters are flooded with them. Some of the people on that guinea pig forum are extremely anti-breeding, and that forum itself is very rescue oriented.

But, I have another forum I go to. Its slow, but there are some very knowledgeable people there.

 

[Bunny82]

wow I can't believe what I just read. You have no problem with a 300$ fee for this GSD or any of the other posters but when I posted about getting a APBT for christmas from my sister and said she was 50$ you jumped all over me. Maybe someday I wont be on your guys **** list. I wonder when that will be.

DaVinci, I had to do a search to figure out what you were talking about but,

The APBT you are referring to is your girl Vendetta correct?

From what I can tell in reading the thread the issue was that your purchase did line the pockets of a backyard breeder.

That is where the concern lay. And only there. It was also addressed with sensitivity.

And that is the difference between where you got your dog and where Lacey came from. Lacey did NOT come from the breeder. Any money Lacey's breeder did make in selling her was not from ACamp's hands whereas Vendetta's breeder did make money from you.

See the difference? It's nothing to do with the price. It has nothing to do with any real or imagined **** list. It has everything to do with not supporting byb's.

 

[YodelDogs]

Just a few random comments on this topic:

Whether a dog is obtained direct from the BYB, from a person who originally obtained it from a BYB, or is a rescue that was bred by a BYB the fact is, they all came from a BYB. BYB dogs almost always have a completely unknown health history and are at a higher risk for developing a health issue than a dog from a responsible breeder who has generations of health testing behind their dogs.

Personal opinion...if a person wants to give up their dog, they should give it back to their breeder no matter who it is. If BYBs were "forced" to take responsibility for the animals they produce perhaps they would think twice about bringing more animals into this world.

I feel that a person has the right to get the dog they want from wherever they want. I am opposed to puppy mills and BYBs and I will voice my opinion and concerns but in the end, it is the individual or family who has to live with the animal, not me, and they should make their own decisions.

I feel that no one has the right to tell someone how much they should pay to adopt/purchase a dog. If a person wants a particular animal and is fine with the adoption fee or asking price, why should anyone else be griping about it? *They* the one spending the money, not you, and it is none of *your* business how much they choose to spend. (Generic you, not specific.)

And why isn't my signature loading? Boy I am cranky tonight.

 

[Psyfalcon]

Part of the problem is... supply and demand does not exist in the pet "market." Well, it does, but puppies and adult dogs are different markets. There is a high demand for new dogs (puppies) and a low demand for used dogs. Which means the breeder/mill is separated from the problem. They can say they found good homes for all their dogs, but really, half could be in a shelter.

On the other hand, many of us are not "perfect" homes. We are students, military, have roommates, other pets, or children. Hell, the local Dachsund rescue bans smoking homes. So we are left with county type shelters or perhaps a byb, or someone on cl.

You have no background on a shelter dog, and many have adoption fees bordering on low end byb prices. An adult dog , you can evaluate yourself, but a puppy is a complete unknown. On the other hand, with a byb, you might get to meet the parents. No, they wont have health testing, but you can see if their plainly lame or vicious. The cl dog is either going to be a shelter dog in 2 weeks, or the puppy of a byb... same problems as any other source besides a reputable breeder.

Unless the breeder can not move the dog out of their house one way or the other, they don't see the problem.

 

[Miakoda]

One thing in favor of getting the rehomed dog directly from the owner instead of letting it go to the shelter is avoiding the dog catching something in the shelter. That happens all too often.

Not just that, but again, in my case, many shelters/rescues will not adopt to me and people like me because we own "too many dogs" or we "crate our dogs" or we "chain our dogs" or we own those awful nasty intact dogs....I could go on.

Before contacting this person whom I'm hopefully getting a "rescue" dog from, I had been turned down twice from 2 different local rescue for some of the reasons stated above. One rescue even implied I was a hoarder up to no good since I own more than one APBT and wanted another "pit bull".

 

[Miakoda]

DaVinci, I had to do a search to figure out what you were talking about but,

The APBT you are referring to is your girl Vendetta correct?

From what I can tell in reading the thread the issue was that your purchase did line the pockets of a backyard breeder.

That is where the concern lay. And only there. It was also addressed with sensitivity.

And that is the difference between where you got your dog and where Lacey came from. Lacey did NOT come from the breeder. Any money Lacey's breeder did make in selling her was not from ACamp's hands whereas Vendetta's breeder did make money from you.

See the difference? It's nothing to do with the price. It has nothing to do with any real or imagined **** list. It has everything to do with not supporting byb's.

Yes, it did. He not only rewarded the breeder financially, but he helped the breeder dump a dog it was having a hard time getting rid off in order to make space for the next byb litter of "pit bulls".

As sad as it is, I will always walk right by that person selling their dogs in a parking lot somewhere. I refuse to help that person continue down that path of destruction.

 

[Adambesme]

I'll be honest here, my dog is from a classified ad. The breeder advertised in the paper as there was a bigger litter than expected. I was already looking for a corgi breeder, and called out of curiosity. I spoke to the breeder before ever seeing the puppies, and was happy with what I heard. The dogs are what I'll call "barn bred" for friends, and the majority of the litter was spoken for except for the two pups that were advertised. The sire and dam were health tested, and Tom came with a health guarantee. I saw and met the sire and dam when I visited, and I was obviously happy enough with what I saw to bring him home.

Now, that being said, would I buy another dog under the same circumstances? Probably not. But I have no real problem with what they were doing because it's clear that these folks were and are looking after their dogs. They had owners lined up for a litter, they health tested, etc. Now, these dogs aren't titled or anything, they just run around on a farm. I have no problem with breeding good dog to good dog as long as they are healthy and sound and unrelated. I am no big fan of conformation showing, so was not set on buying from a conformation breeder.

I do however know that I was very lucky and the more I've read since getting Thomas the more I realize what could have gone wrong.

I won't say how much I paid for him, but I feel confident that there was no great amount of money being made from the situation, and that they are not breeding for profit. I realize people will disagree with me, but I am reluctant to paint all BYB's with the same brush.

 

[DaVinci]

From what I can tell in reading the thread the issue was that your purchase did line the pockets of a backyard breeder.

You guys are something else. How do you know that the GSD was not purchased by the first person for breeding purposes? I'm glad Lacey has a good home but you turn things around to fit how you want them too. 50$ for a pup HARDLY lined anyones pockets. A bag of even cheap food will cost you 20$ for 35#. I supose I could have left her and had her start running then picked up by AC and maybe taken to the shelter in the neighboring town and paid the shelter 150-200$ for her. But my sister gave the guy with six kids 50$ maybe it bought a tank a gas or some dog food. If he really wanted to make money off of those pups he could have taken them down to the twin cities and sold them for 150 200 like the ones I saw in the paper last week. BTW those breeders thought red nose was a blood line too.

I try to educate people all the time when they talk about breeding their dogs. Sometimes it works other times I might as well talk to the air. But a life is a life. No animal asks to be brought into the world, but they all need to be cared for. Until people someday choose to stop supporting pet stores, or just wanting a puppy all the time or stop paying hugh prices for a dog then we can stop all the breeding. But until that time I will take those that I feel will suffer the greatest injustice. Right now that breed is the "pitbull". I can give them a home where they will be loved and trained to be good dogs and represent their breed with honor. You if all have a problem with that so be it. In my heart I know that I did the right thing for this pup.

 

[Renee750il]

Adam, that sounds a lot like the kind of situation I'd be looking for in my breed. I want dogs who are proven in real life, not games. Nothing against the games, and they're great for a lot of breeds, but not with my breed.

Things like agility or weight pull that don't have anything to do with what they're bred to do instinctively are fine - great, even, but not herding trials or bite work or that sort of thing. My breed takes those things seriously, especially the guarding, and they do it instinctively, in their own unique way.

I'd far rather have a dog - of ANY working breed - that was farm bred by people who know what they're looking for than from a line with all sorts of titles.