Chow Chows
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Oh really Bridey. Not true. No such thing as an alpha male! I've owned a male dobe my last one and had dealings with a siberian husky both were alpha males. My dobe was one till the day he died at 12. However, its hard to tell when they are young pups but you can get a fair idea at an early age just by there attitude and by the way, females can be that way too especially when one has several females that live together.
When someone says "My dog thinks he is the alpha" or "my dog is trying to dominate me" I cringe. Dogs DO NOT see us as "pack" or as other dogs. They generalize their behaviour, but they do not generalize ours!
Some dogs are a hell of alot pushier than others, and we are all tempted to say "oh he thinks he's the alpha" and pull out all those silly dominance techniques, when really we just have to be firm and clear in what we want. No, I don't believe in "alpha dogs" in the terms that they are scheming for "pack leadership" and are trying to enforce this on us by walking through doors first, lol.
But some people use the word in different contexts, so I really can't be sure how you are using it Old dog. But, trust me, I've had my fair share of doggy testosterone in the house! Try three bull terriers, a boxer and a Rhodesian Ridge back rofl
Some dogs are a hell of alot pushier than others, and we are all tempted to say "oh he thinks he's the alpha" and pull out all those silly dominance techniques, when really we just have to be firm and clear in what we want. No, I don't believe in "alpha dogs" in the terms that they are scheming for "pack leadership" and are trying to enforce this on us by walking through doors first, lol.
But some people use the word in different contexts, so I really can't be sure how you are using it Old dog. But, trust me, I've had my fair share of doggy testosterone in the house! Try three bull terriers, a boxer and a Rhodesian Ridge back rofl
I have to politely disagree, bridey. Dogs do form pack relationships with other animals, including people. I live in the heart of Texas sheep country, and livestock guarding dogs are extremely popular here. To train, a young 8-week-old puppy is put into a pen with a gentle female sheep (ewe). Human contact is very limited. The pup bonds with the sheep, and recognizes sheep as its pack. That's all there is to it: no formal training of any kind. I don't think such a relationship would be possible if dogs didn't "pack" with other animals.
Also, dogs are social animals who have an instinctive need for packs. You don't see a dog willingly on its own, and if it is, it's usually miserable. If you have only one dog, who else does your dog have to pack with except its humans? Since there are many happy, well-adjusted only dogs out there, they must be getting their pack needs met quite well by their families.
I have also had a dominant dog. I wouldn't call it being "pushy", "demanding" or any other name. He thought he was the leader, plain and simple. It took a lot of training and constant reinforcement to overcome it.
Also, dogs are social animals who have an instinctive need for packs. You don't see a dog willingly on its own, and if it is, it's usually miserable. If you have only one dog, who else does your dog have to pack with except its humans? Since there are many happy, well-adjusted only dogs out there, they must be getting their pack needs met quite well by their families.
I have also had a dominant dog. I wouldn't call it being "pushy", "demanding" or any other name. He thought he was the leader, plain and simple. It took a lot of training and constant reinforcement to overcome it.
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I suggest you read adriennes sticky regarding pack behaviour, where the theory developed, why it is silly to apply to modern dogs and how faulted such studies were in the first place!
Yes, it's true, I don't believe dogs scheme to move up in the "pack order" of things, because I don't believe you can apply wolf behaviours to dogs. Working proffesionally as a trainer and behaviourist six to seven days a week tends to work well at dispelling old theories that are not really relevant. That's why you don't see alpha rolls or scruff shakes in good training schools anymore.
True, bitches can be as stubborn and willful as male dogs, I was just stating that I've had some very tough what some would call "wannabe" alpha dogs.
Definetly, dogs are social animals, but when we use the term "pack" I am assuming you are using it as a strict heirachy involving extensive social interactions that follow an almost ritualised patterns?
Yes, it's true, I don't believe dogs scheme to move up in the "pack order" of things, because I don't believe you can apply wolf behaviours to dogs. Working proffesionally as a trainer and behaviourist six to seven days a week tends to work well at dispelling old theories that are not really relevant. That's why you don't see alpha rolls or scruff shakes in good training schools anymore.
True, bitches can be as stubborn and willful as male dogs, I was just stating that I've had some very tough what some would call "wannabe" alpha dogs.
Definetly, dogs are social animals, but when we use the term "pack" I am assuming you are using it as a strict heirachy involving extensive social interactions that follow an almost ritualised patterns?
M
No Hierarchy
<<using it as a strict heirachy involving extensive social interactions that follow an almost ritualised patterns?>>
Nope........someday when you are living with somewhere in the neighborhood of 28 dogs, you will have a chance to see pack behavior. No need for hierarchy (Or however it is spelled)......just one leader, and the rest all fall in line behind the leader. No battle for beta position. No battles period.....because they all know that if they start one, "grandma" will finish it.
As far as alpha males, you have not yet met a truly homicidal alpha wannabe! One that will not back down under any circumstance, and that goes homicidal at the slightest challenge. Now I personally suspect these dogs have definite chemical inbalance in their brains. They are truly insane. And it is a fearsome thing to be around or to see.
Anyway tho...........until someone lives with a pack of dogs, they are not in a position to comment on pack behavior! And just what the heck is supposed to be the great difference between "modern" dogs, and dogs of 100 years ago????? The psychology has not changed! Same as for humans! Our psychological make up is the same now as 1000 years ago. Only the stimuli changes. The reactions remain the same! Anger is still anger, sorrow is still sorrow, etc. There are only so many emotions available to people and or other animals.
Except maybe for posters on newsgroups, rofl.
<<using it as a strict heirachy involving extensive social interactions that follow an almost ritualised patterns?>>
Nope........someday when you are living with somewhere in the neighborhood of 28 dogs, you will have a chance to see pack behavior. No need for hierarchy (Or however it is spelled)......just one leader, and the rest all fall in line behind the leader. No battle for beta position. No battles period.....because they all know that if they start one, "grandma" will finish it.
As far as alpha males, you have not yet met a truly homicidal alpha wannabe! One that will not back down under any circumstance, and that goes homicidal at the slightest challenge. Now I personally suspect these dogs have definite chemical inbalance in their brains. They are truly insane. And it is a fearsome thing to be around or to see.
Anyway tho...........until someone lives with a pack of dogs, they are not in a position to comment on pack behavior! And just what the heck is supposed to be the great difference between "modern" dogs, and dogs of 100 years ago????? The psychology has not changed! Same as for humans! Our psychological make up is the same now as 1000 years ago. Only the stimuli changes. The reactions remain the same! Anger is still anger, sorrow is still sorrow, etc. There are only so many emotions available to people and or other animals.
Except maybe for posters on newsgroups, rofl.
Granted I am not a licenced training as of yet (but apparently I get to work with one of the best in the country soon), but just from watching daycare interactions, I'd say pack behavior does still apply. There are the "alphas" and the bottom of the pack and I have watched a dog's status change in a matter of moments. We had to remove the dogs in question because none of the 'higher ups' would leave him alone; way too much dominant mounting behavior going on. We make it clear that we run the pack outside, but there is some skirmishing for second.
M
<<A small minority of "alpha" dogs assumed their position by bullying and force. Those that did were quickly deposed. No one likes a dictator.
The vast majority of alpha dogs rule benevolently. They are confident in their position. They do not stoop to squabbling to prove their point. To do so would lower their status because...>>
Well, the above is from Adrienne's "sticky". Looks like perhaps you missed part of it!!!!!! Seems to me it clearly supports the "alpha dog" FACT!
Once upon a time, Jim Mckay, who was the jackass moderator of the Westminster Kennel Club show--the guy was an total idiot---commented to James Clark (most highly respected dog judge, breeder, handler, and husband of Annie Rodgers Clark) commented on how you never see dog fights at the shows. Then he said to Jim Clark....."you have a bunch of dogs, do they all get along?" Jim Clark answered, "Yes......I EXPECT them to get along." We all knew exactly what he meant! He was pack leader and none of his dogs would even think of starting any itsha!!!
The problems you correct with pet dogs are very much the result of the owner surrendering the position of "alpha" to the dog. Mainly because they don't know how to assert themselves and gain the dog's respect. A dog can love you all day long, but if they don't respect you, it is only going to end in disaster. Just as with kids!!!!!!
The vast majority of alpha dogs rule benevolently. They are confident in their position. They do not stoop to squabbling to prove their point. To do so would lower their status because...>>
Well, the above is from Adrienne's "sticky". Looks like perhaps you missed part of it!!!!!! Seems to me it clearly supports the "alpha dog" FACT!
Once upon a time, Jim Mckay, who was the jackass moderator of the Westminster Kennel Club show--the guy was an total idiot---commented to James Clark (most highly respected dog judge, breeder, handler, and husband of Annie Rodgers Clark) commented on how you never see dog fights at the shows. Then he said to Jim Clark....."you have a bunch of dogs, do they all get along?" Jim Clark answered, "Yes......I EXPECT them to get along." We all knew exactly what he meant! He was pack leader and none of his dogs would even think of starting any itsha!!!
The problems you correct with pet dogs are very much the result of the owner surrendering the position of "alpha" to the dog. Mainly because they don't know how to assert themselves and gain the dog's respect. A dog can love you all day long, but if they don't respect you, it is only going to end in disaster. Just as with kids!!!!!!
M
Not to beat a dead horse (or dog, lol)...the people who did the initial studies on wolf behavior must have been idiots. That crapola about the alpha roll......were they blind? It was obvious the wolf involved was flopping itself onto the ground! Now, what IS a fact is the way a dam punishes her pups if they get out of line. That picture I had in my sig of Percy gives a perfect example
and you can tell by the look on the pup's face that it knows it has f**'d up BIG TIME, and that doom is about to strike. And you can tell by the look on Percy's face that she has reached the point of total exasperation, lol.
THAT is how a pack leader deals with discipline problems! It is a case of YOU __WILL__ BEHAVE!!!!!!
and you can tell by the look on the pup's face that it knows it has f**'d up BIG TIME, and that doom is about to strike. And you can tell by the look on Percy's face that she has reached the point of total exasperation, lol.
THAT is how a pack leader deals with discipline problems! It is a case of YOU __WILL__ BEHAVE!!!!!!
I don't believe in using the term "alpha" as it puts the misconception in people's minds that their dogs are vieing for position in some kind of imagined pack scenario, which I truly don't believe in. That is why I don't advocate hands on methods that are meant to have been derived from wolf observations.
Manchesters, I've been training proffesionally for close to ten years and privately for about fifteen, I wonder where are all these physchotic dogs that "never back down from a challenge"?
Maybe we don't have them in Australia, or maybe it's because I never "challenge" them when I'm training. I'm sure if I were to get physical with training I would see this alot more. Dogs are HUGELY different from wolves. You would know that if you had owned a wolf or wolf hybrid, they just cannot be compared.
Manchesters, I've been training proffesionally for close to ten years and privately for about fifteen, I wonder where are all these physchotic dogs that "never back down from a challenge"?
Maybe we don't have them in Australia, or maybe it's because I never "challenge" them when I'm training. I'm sure if I were to get physical with training I would see this alot more. Dogs are HUGELY different from wolves. You would know that if you had owned a wolf or wolf hybrid, they just cannot be compared.
Also, when you study behaviourism you get to look at and discuss all kind of theories that were once used, even if they are proved to be false now. The "pack theory" is one of them. When dogs go feral they will "band up" but they will in no terms form anything close to what could be termed a "pack". The social structure is ever changing and you don't see any of the ritualstice behaviour you would see in wolves.
M
Maybe it is because you just haven't run into them yet. You don't have the chance to encounter as many dogs as you would if you were a breeder. Old Dog told me of a couple she encountered, and I know of several from my own experience. I doubt tho that these dogs would be found in a pet senario. They would have been shot after they mauled their owners.
Perhaps after another 20 or 25 years you will have met dogs of every type. They ARE out there! But I still say that most of them MUST have a chemical imbalance of the brain!
Oh, and I knew a wolf hybrid up close and personal. I have a strong suspicion it much depends on what went into the mix. And of course there are many breeds that have retained much of the wild thinking pattern......the sled dogs, the Oriental breeds......those that have not been manipulated by people breeding for specific characteristics.
And of course, everyone has seen the programs on Animal Planet of the people who have wolf compounds, and who interact with those wolves on a daily, personal basis. Nothing at all like dealing with dogs. That is why we DOMESTICATED the wolf!
Perhaps after another 20 or 25 years you will have met dogs of every type. They ARE out there! But I still say that most of them MUST have a chemical imbalance of the brain!
Oh, and I knew a wolf hybrid up close and personal. I have a strong suspicion it much depends on what went into the mix. And of course there are many breeds that have retained much of the wild thinking pattern......the sled dogs, the Oriental breeds......those that have not been manipulated by people breeding for specific characteristics.
And of course, everyone has seen the programs on Animal Planet of the people who have wolf compounds, and who interact with those wolves on a daily, personal basis. Nothing at all like dealing with dogs. That is why we DOMESTICATED the wolf!
Could be true, though I do see a large amount of aggressive dogs in my line of work.
Exactly my point
The whole alpha theory was flawed from the beginning, and even if it hadn't been we still wouldn't be able to apply such a notion to domestic dogs.
Lol, I wouldn't trust everything I see on animal planet. I worked with the council a bit on rehabilitating previously feral dogs and as a consequence got to observe some real life "dog pack" behaviour. They may have a "leader" for one day, more often though he is just the best suited for that particular day/task. They switch around all the time, one day it might be a big black male, the next a little female foxy. I may come back three days later and four dogs are now considered "the leader".
I have as yet to see a dog "challenge" his owner for the "alpha position", and am curious to know what people actually think the signs are. I've dealt with so many alpha based misconceptions, such as walking through doors first or initiating play, that I would like to know what people actually percieve as "challengning" to their status as leader.
Exactly my point
The whole alpha theory was flawed from the beginning, and even if it hadn't been we still wouldn't be able to apply such a notion to domestic dogs.Lol, I wouldn't trust everything I see on animal planet. I worked with the council a bit on rehabilitating previously feral dogs and as a consequence got to observe some real life "dog pack" behaviour. They may have a "leader" for one day, more often though he is just the best suited for that particular day/task. They switch around all the time, one day it might be a big black male, the next a little female foxy. I may come back three days later and four dogs are now considered "the leader".
I have as yet to see a dog "challenge" his owner for the "alpha position", and am curious to know what people actually think the signs are. I've dealt with so many alpha based misconceptions, such as walking through doors first or initiating play, that I would like to know what people actually percieve as "challengning" to their status as leader.
Have you ever seen that show the Dog Whisperer, Manchesters? What you said reminded me of something he said. He has a whole pack of dogs, probably 20-30 of them.
So he's standing in a sea of dogs, talking to a dog owner.
Cesar: "All of these dogs are number 2."
Dense Lady: "Well who's number one?"
Cesar: "I am."
So he's standing in a sea of dogs, talking to a dog owner.
Cesar: "All of these dogs are number 2."
Dense Lady: "Well who's number one?"
Cesar: "I am."
M
The basic behavioral test for alpha is putting a puppy onto the ground, on its back and see how hard it fights to get back up.
Now as for adults, when you are trying to obedience train a dog, and it eats its way up your arm, or goes for your throat---just out of the blue. They resent authority and will fight it tooth and nail.
Or any dog that you are trying to put out the door that turns around and nails you. ALPHA IS NOT SO MUCH BEHAVIOR AS IT IS ATTITUDE!!
Now as for adults, when you are trying to obedience train a dog, and it eats its way up your arm, or goes for your throat---just out of the blue. They resent authority and will fight it tooth and nail.
Or any dog that you are trying to put out the door that turns around and nails you. ALPHA IS NOT SO MUCH BEHAVIOR AS IT IS ATTITUDE!!