Choosing a breed to raise and train as service dogs

lizzybeth727

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#41
there are no SD schools that have just ONE person doing everything.
How do you think most schools got started?? :) (I really try to avoid naming names, but....) Paws with a Cause in Michigan started with one trainer, a "pet dog" trainer, who decided to try to train one of his clients' dogs to alert to sounds for the client. In 20+ years that organization has grown to one of the largest and most well-respected in the industry.
 

Saeleofu

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#42
Yes, they start that way. But they don't start that way and by training tons of dogs at once. They start one or two dogs at a time. That's the point I was trying to make. Apparently it was lost. As for Paws with a Cause, I don't care for them, for personal reasons. It's not a place I'd ever want to work/intern volunteer at.

And training a service dog (or several!) is a HUGE undertaking that takes a massive daily commitment from you personally. I think it might be too much to take on your schooling, a career (you will probably work *at least* full time when you graduate) and social things, plus breeding, raising, and training, screening homes, and all of the things that come with service dog breeding small and large. Just one opinion to look at things realistically, from one big dreamer to another
On re-reading and thinking a bit, did you mean I shouldn't train any dog during the time I'm in school? Or did you tihnk I was going to try to start a program while I'm still in school? I don't plan to start until well after I graduate as I mentioned before, but as for training one dog...that's what I'm going to go to school for, and training a dog is required. Undergrads train the SDs for the Service Dog Institute (the school itself), but grad students train their own dog or someone else's dog. I will be a grad student. Therefore I need to train my own dog. I need a service dog. So why not use the dog I train in school as my own SD?


*points to her siggy*

"I'm through accepting limits 'cause someone says they're so." ;)
 

dadan

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#43
As part of your research before you do this, I'd suggest going to as many service dog organizations as you can, and spend time with their dogs. I'm not talking about watching the training - training is the easy part! - I mean, just visit with the dogs to get a solid feel for what kind of temperment you're looking for. My organization gets all of our dogs from shelters and rescues, and we have an extensive evaluation program for both in the shelter and for several months after we start training. I talk to people in the rescue community all the time who have read about the dogs that we are looking for, but even then they have a hard time understanding until they see some of our dogs.


.
 

Saeleofu

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#44
I have been told by a guide dog trainer that poodles generally excel at tasks other than guiding. Guiding/modified guide work is a big part of what I need in these dogs. She mentioned that boxers from a good working line may be a good choice. She also suggested GSDs, but I can't deal with all that hair.

Anyone happen to know any breeders with working boxers?
 

Romy

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#45
I don't know that GSDs would be the best choice anyway, because of their strong tendency to feed into the handler's emotions. It would depend on the needs of the individual handler, but anybody dealing with anxiety issues (which seem to be common, at least with my husband's autistic clients) I would not recommend a GSD service animal for.

We tried a GSD before we got Strider. She was a fabulous, wonderful girl. The main problem was I would get anxious (PTSD) and start having flashbacks. She was so in tune to what I was going through, that she would begin freaking out as well. i.e.

"What's WRONG!?! Something's making you upset!!! I've gotta find out what it is! *pace pace pace* I know, you're checking the doors over and over, the doors are BAD. Something about the doors is BAD. It's making you anxious. I'll stop the bad thing for you."

Then she proceeded to get extremely reactive to people coming through the door, to the point where she tried to bite both my husband and father in law when they walked in. It was horrible for everybody. I feel strongly that if you're training dogs to assist people who need help staying grounded in a psychiatric sense, you need to find a breed or individual dogs who have that emotional independence. That is what makes the right borzois so good at what they do as service animals. Collies would be very good as well, and probably a lot more consistent as they tend to be more consistently handler oriented than the majority of borzois out there.

I wonder if a spinone italiano would work. The ones I have met were really stable too, sort of like big, intelligent goldens. Plus they are wire haired, which makes coat upkeep a lot simpler.
 

Saeleofu

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#46
I've actually never heard of that breed before so I just did a quick google search. OMFG they're so freaking adorable xD
 

lizzybeth727

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#48
Anyone happen to know any breeders with working boxers?
My org has used a few boxers in the past, they're very common in shelters around here; I went to a shelter yesterday with about 150 dogs, and saw at least 5 boxers. Anyway, I haven't met the boxers in our program, but from what I understand, they're adequate service dogs but wouldn't win any awards. :)
 

Saeleofu

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#49
The quality of a service dog depends on the training and many other factors. Breed alone does not make or break a dog. Of course breeds have tendencies to do better or worse in certain tasks. Since I was told by a trainer form The Seeing Eye that boxers make good guide dogs, I'm going to believe her (this is the same trainer that want to start a program with me in a few years ^.^)

I would not get a dog from a shelter to train as my first service dog. Too much risk. I already have one wash-out. I need to make my chances of succeeding as high as possible, because not only will training the dog help me learn, but it will be my service dog, too, so it will help me function. I know there are programs that get dogs from shelters, but the success rate is so low that I just can't risk it. Plus shelters spay and neuter. If I'm going to breed them, first I want my foundation stock to come from reputable breeders, but I also need to have intact animals. Will I breed my first SD to start my lines? I suppose it's a possibility, but the chances aren't great. However if it's a male, I may consider leaving him intact. An intact female service dog is just impractical.
 

Romy

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#50
The quality of a service dog depends on the training and many other factors. Breed alone does not make or break a dog. Of course breeds have tendencies to do better or worse in certain tasks. Since I was told by a trainer form The Seeing Eye that boxers make good guide dogs, I'm going to believe her (this is the same trainer that want to start a program with me in a few years ^.^)

I would not get a dog from a shelter to train as my first service dog. Too much risk. I already have one wash-out. I need to make my chances of succeeding as high as possible, because not only will training the dog help me learn, but it will be my service dog, too, so it will help me function. I know there are programs that get dogs from shelters, but the success rate is so low that I just can't risk it. Plus shelters spay and neuter. If I'm going to breed them, first I want my foundation stock to come from reputable breeders, but I also need to have intact animals. Will I breed my first SD to start my lines? I suppose it's a possibility, but the chances aren't great. However if it's a male, I may consider leaving him intact. An intact female service dog is just impractical.
One thing I have noticed about boxers is the rift in temperament between BYB dogs and well bred dogs is astronomical, which would make all the difference if you were getting a well bred prospect VS. a shelter dog.

The BYB ones I have met were all..pretty much nutso, with no off switch or cap on energy, and not much brains to speak of. I did meet a pair of well bred boxers once and spent a little time with them, they were laid back, well adjusted, and very bright.
 

Fran101

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#52
I guess it would depend on kind of service,but ive always wondered why its so rare to see small breed service dogs.. is it really a size thing or is it more about their temp/trainability?
 

Romy

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#53
I guess it would depend on kind of service,but ive always wondered why its so rare to see small breed service dogs.. is it really a size thing or is it more about their temp/trainability?
Part of it is the stigma associated with service dogs, and then a toy breed on top of that. Most folks think of a dog that does some sort of mobility/guiding assistance when they think of a service dog, so handlers of small breeds can run into access problems when people assume they are lying so they can bring their toy dog into the store.

They are good as alert dogs if the handler doesn't have any mobility issues they need assistance with, since their size makes them very portable.
 

Saeleofu

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#54
The vast majority of hearing dogs are small dogs. I might add that hearing dogs are also usually rescues.
 

FoxyWench

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#55
not only that, it also depends on the service, many services like eyes and mobility need a dog large enough.

and acess is a HUGE issue...
its hard enough having a service dog for anything Other than eyes...its worse having a breed thats not typically associated with being a service dog.

its a shame because smaller breeds make perfect alert dogs and wonderfull hearing dogs.
they also make good psychiatric service dogs...

ive had ALOT of acess issues however...
as ive been told
"your not blind, we only allow guide dogs" "only golden retreivers, labs and shepards can be service dogs" and "your dogs too small to be a service dog"
unfortunatly these are all very common, more so because most folks are not aware of the service dog rules and regs and its even worse when the managment of places arnt aware of the laws.
its discouraging and many disabled with small service dogs tend to be agoraphobic unfortunatly and much of that is based on the amount of difficultly they have getting acess...many disabled folks are shy, dont like confrontation, ect...so having to fight for their rights makes doing regular daily chores even harder...

when all you wanted to do was pick up a couple cans of peas, and you spend an hour trying to explain your rights to managment only to feel like your hitting your head against a brick wall because your not visually disabled and your dogs not a "typical" service dog breed you MUST be lying, and you MUST be making up all the "facts" your telling them about your rights as a dissabled person.
 

Saeleofu

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#56
Some of the first guide dogs were small dogs (miniature poodles if I remember correctly). Of course the harnesses and everything were much different!

Foxy, you must know that when someone asks if you're blind or if your dog is a guide dog, the correct answer is always yes! Most people won't give it a second thought because they simply don't know.

A group I am involved with is working on making law/access cards explainng the laws with the DOJ number on them. When it's to a point where they're ready to distribute, I can let you know if you like. They'll be either free or low cost. I do think one of the options is that we'll have a PDF so you can print your own, to cut costs.
 

lizzybeth727

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#57
The quality of a service dog depends on the training and many other factors. Breed alone does not make or break a dog.
...
Since I was told by a trainer form The Seeing Eye that boxers make good guide dogs, I'm going to believe her (this is the same trainer that want to start a program with me in a few years ^.^)
I can't decide if you're trying to insult my training abilities, or my experience....

I would not get a dog from a shelter to train as my first service dog. Too much risk. .... I know there are programs that get dogs from shelters, but the success rate is so low that I just can't risk it.
My organization's success rate is 50%. My personal success rate over the past two years that I've been doing evaluations, is 75%. Most breeders are excited to get 30%.

There IS definately a lot of risk in getting a dog from a shelter, and I would not suggest that someone who's never trained an assistance dog start with one from a shelter; though I'd also not suggest someone who's never trained an assistance dog pick a dog without the help of a trained professional.

One thing I have noticed about boxers is the rift in temperament between BYB dogs and well bred dogs is astronomical, which would make all the difference if you were getting a well bred prospect VS. a shelter dog.
That makes sense, thanks for the insight!

I guess it would depend on kind of service,but ive always wondered why its so rare to see small breed service dogs.. is it really a size thing or is it more about their temp/trainability?
Small dogs are definately as "trainable" as large dogs. In my org, we use larger dogs as service dogs because the small dogs are simply not big enough to do the job. Many recipients use power chairs, which are usually extremely tall, so a retrieve is just not very practical. Not to mention the dog would only be able to retrieve small objects (a common retrieve item here is a water bottle, which my chi certainly wouldn't be able to do; and especially not if she had to jump up onto a power chair to deliver it). Plus tasks like tugging commercial doors open, turning off/on lightswitches, pushing automatic door buttons, etc. would all be challenging for small dogs. Of course I'm not saying it can't be done, but it is limiting and would usually require more equipment - stairs to get to the lightswitch, etc. - and our recipients usually can't afford these things.

Of course guide dogs would also have to be a certain size in order to do guide work effectively.

We do also use the small dogs as hearing dogs, but that's more for the recipient's convenience than anything else..... it's much easier to fit in a restaurant booth, airplane, small office/cubicle, etc. with a small dog than with a large dog. But even then we have size restrictions - they really need to be at least 20 pounds or 12 inches tall, if they're smaller than that they will not be noticed in public and could possibly be stepped on or otherwise injured.
 

Laurelin

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#58
Paps are actually used quite a lot for hearing dogs from what I've heard.

Anyways, just a thought on boxers and Flat coats, I'd be concerned with the high instances of health problems in both breeds. Not that other breeds don't have them but both those breeds have very high instances of cancer and flat coats have a very short life expectancy when compared to the other retrievers.
 

Romy

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#59
Paps are actually used quite a lot for hearing dogs from what I've heard.

Anyways, just a thought on boxers and Flat coats, I'd be concerned with the high instances of health problems in both breeds. Not that other breeds don't have them but both those breeds have very high instances of cancer and flat coats have a very short life expectancy when compared to the other retrievers.
That's one reason spinone came to mind. They are a pretty robust breed overall. Probably one of the healthiest sporting breeds is the wirehaired pointing griffon, but they have a hard time listening unless you've got your hands on them. :lol-sign: Spinones are bigger too, I think the standard says 27" at the shoulder is the upper cap.
 

Laurelin

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#60
I would think longevity would be a major concern with service animals. I love spinones and Griffons. My dad is pretty convinced his next dog is going to be a Griff. (He keeps going back between that and a GSP)
 

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