Choosing a breed to raise and train as service dogs

[lizzybeth727]

What is the reason for crossing labs with goldens?.

The goldens they were breeding were generally taller than the labs they were breeding. IME most bred service dog labs are quite short and stocky. Goldens tend to be more sensitive, so the lab/goldens actually have a better chance of having the right temperment.

How much does the dog's structure besides height make a difference? If someone is putting weight straight down on a dog, would a stockier dog - a wider frame - be better even if he's a little shorter? Or would that aspect not matter?.

I think the dog's overall body type is probably very important..... But again, there is no proof or evidence of any kind. There are too many unknowns, IMO, to ask a dog to have weight put on him day in and day out. After all, they weren't built to be weight bearing.

I wouldn't suggest Berners. I've never seen one that I would want to use as a SD. They can be great 95% of the time, but they have a tendency to spook and completely flip out on occasion, in some very unpredictable and odd ways.

Interesting.... I know of an organization that uses berners, they say they have the personality of a golden but the sturdier body that works better as wheelchair-pulling dogs.

I've never seen a bad Golden or Lab service dog . I met such a neat Golden today .

I should HOPE that you don't see ANY bad service dogs, no matter what breed!!

I know this may sound out there and perhaps to some, crazy but how about an APBT? or an Amstaff or American Bulldog? I know people with APBT's who are service dogs and I know people who have other Pit Bull breeds as service dogs and have seen some pretty great things done with them.

This is a question my org gets a lot because pits are BY FAR the most common breed to see in the shelters. (I went to a shelter yesterday, probably 1/3-1/2 of the dogs there were pits it was terribly sad.) While their temperment definately does make them a good service dog (very people oriented, determined to do the job right, etc.), we don't use pits because of the stigma associated with them. A lot of people in public are scared of dogs anyway, and we feel like using a breed that more people are scared of anyway will just exacerbate the problem.

We also officially don't use rotties for the same reason, though one trainer I worked with LOVED rotties and got several that didn't look exactly like rotties if you didn't really know about dogs. They actually all (three) got released for resource guarding.

Gordon setter is a great suggestion, we have one gordon working now but I have never met her.

 

[mrose_s]

Another option I am looking at are Australian labradoodles (which are really a breed in Australia, not mixes like the "doodles" and such are here). They are expensive though, and would have to be imported (unless I move to Australia, which is actually a possibility).

They are not really a breed here yet, yes there are some breeders doing it the right way. They have set up an Association but there is still nothing to standard and they are still a way off actually being recognised as a breed and most pure-bred enthusiasts are still very anti-doodle. lol

On the Australia Labradoodle Association website they have put up a standard.

The Australian Labradoodle Association

This doesn't sit particularily well with me. Coat

A distinctive feature of this breed is that the coat is non-shedding and easily maintained.

My understanding is even poodles shed, its just because the hair gets caught in the wool like texture of their coat so it isn't dropped from the dog so much. So saying this is a "non-shedding breed" makes no sense, ALL dogs shed, some more than others.

I think the Labradoodle has potential, but we must remember thats its original purpose was to be bred as a hypo-allergenic guide dog, but as far as I know, the project was abandoned around 1996 because there was such a low success rate.
This is an interesting page (not too long)
http://www.blythmoor.com/labradoodle.pdf

I have seen Standard Poodles as guide dogs though, they are incredibly intelligent and their size is handy.

 

[Laurelin]

The service dog organization here uses mainly labradoodles and I've been pretty impressed with them overall. I'm certainly no service dog expert but I definitely know there are labradoodles doing the job out there.

One plus I've noticed about the doodles versus the labs and poodles at least for you is they seem to be bigger than both parent breeds. I'm not sure HOW exactly., but it's not uncommon to see a doodle that is just massive. Anyone know why that happens?

 

[lizzybeth727]

Laur, can you PM me the organization you're talking about??

 

[Whisper]

I saw a labradoodle service dog a few weeks ago (her owner said she was imported from Australia) and she was beautifully behaved. I've never thought much of labradoodle breeding at all, TBH, and was impressed in spite of myself of the great temperament.

Unfortunately I also ran into a woman with a golden retriever as her service dog and it was one of the worst behaved dogs I've ever seen in public. It was barking and lunging, and when the owner grabbed it by the collar it snapped at her. As she was escorted out of the building (because of her dog's behavior- her service dog, for goodness' sake!) she asked me what I was doing with a border collie as a service dog, and told me one day she'll turn on me. WTF? My service dog was perfectly behaved even as she got pounced on by Cujo, and she's the crazy one? Whatever. It's just really depressing to see a service dog behave like that. It gives a bad name to people like us who need our service dogs and actually TRAIN them.

A Gordon is a great idea. Not the first breed I thought of because they're not as common as goldens or labs, but a great breed with great temperaments. Just remember, whatever you decide, don't forget about the actual individual dog.

 

[Laurelin]

Laur, can you PM me the organization you're talking about??

Sure thing!

 

[lizzybeth727]

Unfortunately I also ran into a woman with a golden retriever as her service dog and it was one of the worst behaved dogs I've ever seen in public. It was barking and lunging, and when the owner grabbed it by the collar it snapped at her.

How horrible!

FYI - to ANYONE reading this - if you see a service dog misbehaving in public, believe me, the dog's trainers WANT TO KNOW. Please, do what you can to figure out where the dog came from - compliment their breeding, say that you need a dog too, whatever - and contact that organization. You don't have to have the dog's or person's name, just a description will be good enough.

Also, if you see a dog behaving well, you can call us about that too.

We tell our recipients that we have spies everywhere, so they'd better make sure their dogs are on their best behavior in public! Every once in a while we get "strangers" calling to comment on our dogs' behaviors, and you'd better believe those recipients get the message too!

Of course often when dogs are misbehaving in public, they are owner-trained... which is part of why I think one day in the future there are going to be more strict certifications or something required for service dogs in public.

 

[Laurelin]

I ran into a really poorly behaved labradoodle service dog once. (It was not through the org here) It was awful, but I wasn't sure what to do about it. Thanks for the heads up though, now I have a better idea what to do if I come into that situation again.

 

[Saeleofu]

Yes, APBTs are too short. I love them, they're great dogs, but they're not what I'm looking for.

If you have lots of pit-type dogs in shelters, consider them lucky - here they will euthanize a pit that even comes close to failing one part of a temperament test, but will adopt out a chihuahua that complete fails the entire test >.< Granted in general our BSL isn't as bad as it is in some places, but is has become considerably worse in the past few months.

The only reason I wouldn't really want to have poodle/lab mixes (as opposed to Labradoodles) is that if I were to breed them myself, I'd have to have labs and poodles, and I don't want to do that. I'd rather just stick with one breed.

If you see a poorly behaved SD, if it's from a program definitely report it to the program. If I remember correctly you can also report it to the DOJ, but don't quote me on that, I'd have to look it up again. Usually, though, poorly behaved SD are one of the following:
1. "hugger" dogs (aka untrained ESAs that are being dragged around)
2. fakers - people who aren't really disabled but want to drag their pet everywhere
3. owner trained

Now, not all OT dogs are bad. Some of the best SDs I've hearb about have been owner trained, but their owners are professional dogs trainers in their own right. The ones that cause problems are those that are trained without the help of an actual trainer (and the owner has no idea what they're doing to begin with) and those that refuse to wash out their dog when it's clear it shouldn't be a SD. I encourage anyone who sees a poorly behaved SD or a faker to report it. Remember that for every poorly behaved dog, it makes it harder for legitimate teams to get access.

 

[Whisper]

I do want to step in and say that I totally agree that unfortunately, many owner-trained service dogs are not very well-behaved. I also wanted to say that my SD is owner-trained for a legitimate disability, that she alerts but also performs several other trained tasks, that I trained her to the public access guidelines, and that she's very well behaved. I'm quite young, am not a professional, but have worked with many, many dogs (mainly through volunteer work at the local humane society and with animal control/pound, trying to help the behavior issues of the dogs who might be PTS because of them), and have consulted with people who also successfully trained their own service dogs.

 

[Saeleofu]

and have consulted with people who also successfully trained their own service dogs.

That is they key - you have done something that the vast majority of owner-trainers don't do. They expect to do it all on their own, with no input, and little experience.

Also, you say you have experience with a lot of dogs. In my eyes, hands-on training trumps anything else. You can't learn training any better than through hands-on experience. That is why I'm teaching my dog so many things that aren't really necessary - I'm experimenting, getting a feel for training things that are new to me. He's not an SD so I don't run the risk of ruining him for service work (he has mild hip dysplasia, so he's not a candidate). I'd rather experiment with him and have a cool, well-trained pet than ruining a potential service dog.

 

[Whisper]

Thanks. I agree about hands on experience. Like I said, I'm very young, (only 17- please don't cringe, I wouldn't have gotten so far working with the shelter dogs or with Millie if I really had no clue) so have only had five or so years of experience working with the shelter dogs regularly), but that taught me a million times more than reading dog books from as soon as I was able to read. I also want to say, in case anyone else is wondering, Millie was my pet before she became my service dog, but I thought long and hard about her suitability as a service dog before doing anything drastic, even though I had no real concerns about her behavior or ability to handle it.

One day I do want to be a professional trainer/animal behaviorist.

 

[Saeleofu]

One day I do want to be a professional trainer/animal behaviorist.

Since you are young, and presumable going to college soon? I'm going to suggest you at least look into Bergin University. Had I known that there was a school like that (and had I known that is what I wanted to do back then ) I would have gone there in a heartbeat. They do have associate's, bachelor's and master's degrees as well as other shorter term classes. The only caveat is that they don't accommodate outside SDs and they can legally do that under the ADA as it is a fundamental alteration. They train and breed SDs so they cannot take any chances; if they were to test and check the health of every SD that came through, it would be unreasonably costly. But it may be something to consider I'm 22 and will be starting my master's next year, and I plan to go there for my master's.

I went from wanting to be a vet, to zookeeper, to clinical psychologist, to human factors psychologist, and now finally I have settled on dog trainer. It runs in the family anyway I wanted to be a vet for year and years, then lost interest in my bio classes and was killed by chem classes - changed to psych and got turned off of clinical psych pretty quick. Human factors is interesting, but not the thing for me. I've been training dogs all my life, but only recently has it clicked that hey! You can do this for a living

 

[Whisper]

That's pretty awesome. I'll have to look up the place and find out more. It's great that you have a family that works with animals. My mom's worst fear used to be dogs. No worries, though, I've successfully rehabilitated her.

 

[Saeleofu]

My mom's not so much into dogs, but my dad is. My mom likes dogs, yes, but she's clueless when it comes to behavior and training. My dad is a natural, he's been training dogs since he was 13.

Linky for you:

Bergin University of Canine Studies | Home of the Assistance Dog Institute | Located in Northern California

 

[Whisper]

Thanks so much for the link. It looks awesome! And only one state over, too.

My mom's a bit clueless too, but she accepts my ideas and research about animals and trusts I know what I'm talking about and know best for my animals, which is something unfortunately a lot of parents don't do when the child is more educated and enthusiastic about dogs. It's visible on this forum, time and time again, when there are great, smart, educated kids who can't change their parents' minds about treatment, training, nutrition, etc..

 

[lizzybeth727]

Since you are young, and presumable going to college soon? I'm going to suggest you at least look into Bergin University.

I'd suggest you actually go to a "traditional" college/university and get an academic degree before persuing dog training.

- Dog training is a difficult field to get into and it would be good to have something to fall back on if you can't get in.

- Dog training doesn't pay well, especially when you're starting out (many apprentiship programs are strictly volunteer) and a college degree will help you get a good part-time job to help suppliment your income.

- Dog training is physically demanding, I've met very few service dog trainers who have been training more than about 10 years (most move to more administrative positions, or teach classes where they don't have to physically handle dogs). Plus there's a decently high risk of getting hurt on the job.

- Burnout rates are suprisingly high for dog trainers. For most of us, dogs are our "life" (I come home from work and what do I do? Get on chaz!), which is not terribly healthy. But there is also the stress of producing great dogs in short periods of time. FUNDRAISING (the trainers are the "rock stars" of the organization, funders ONLY want to see trainers usually). And dealing with clients who, DEEP down, may or may not acutally want a dog.


Plus, though pretty much everyone in the industry knows who Bonnie Bergin is, Bergin U hasn't been around long enough to really establish itself.


I knew I wanted to train service dogs since I was 12 years old, but when I went to college I knew I needed a fall-back career. I double majored in Psychology (not only is it EXTREMELY valuable to learn about learning theory and other things related to animal training, psychology FASCINATES me) and social work (which is also a huge help in dealing with clients). It was actually my senior year of college when I got my first job in dog training, and I've been doing it ever since. But it's a relief to know that if I ever can't do this job anymore, I can go back and work in social work or get a graduate degree.

 

[Whisper]

Thanks, lizzybeth. It's always helpful to consider those things.

 

[Doberdogs]

If I do not get an SD from a program before I go of to Bergin U next fall, I do plan to get a standard poodle puppy and train it to be my service dog. By the time I am done with school (2 to 3 years for master's) I ought to have a working service dog.
They are expensive though, and would have to be imported (unless I move to Australia, which is actually a possibility).

I know you are just making conversation and I want to add my two cents. I also have a graduate degree. It took a lot of work to get to that point! Years need to be put into pedigree research, assessment of temperament, drives, etc. etc. etc.
Sounds like you also have a lot going on from just a quick look at this post. Dog breeding is a serious business IMO if you are going to do it right. And training a service dog (or several!) is a HUGE undertaking that takes a massive daily commitment from you personally. I think it might be too much to take on your schooling, a career (you will probably work *at least* full time when you graduate) and social things, plus breeding, raising, and training, screening homes, and all of the things that come with service dog breeding small and large. Just one opinion to look at things realistically, from one big dreamer to another

 

[Saeleofu]

I know you are just making conversation and I want to add my two cents. I also have a graduate degree. It took a lot of work to get to that point! Years need to be put into pedigree research, assessment of temperament, drives, etc. etc. etc.
Sounds like you also have a lot going on from just a quick look at this post. Dog breeding is a serious business IMO if you are going to do it right. And training a service dog (or several!) is a HUGE undertaking that takes a massive daily commitment from you personally. I think it might be too much to take on your schooling, a career (you will probably work *at least* full time when you graduate) and social things, plus breeding, raising, and training, screening homes, and all of the things that come with service dog breeding small and large. Just one opinion to look at things realistically, from one big dreamer to another

Training service dogs will BE my career. Of course I won't start my own program right off the bat. School can only teach you so much, so I'd have to work with another program for at least a few years before I ever try to start my own program. I also won't be doing it alone if it develops the way I'd like - there are no SD schools that have just ONE person doing everything. I reaize that training a service dog is a huge commitment each and every day - that is why it'll most likely be my full time job, not working at some place all day and then trying to train a couple minutes a day at night.

Like I said it will be many years before I ever put any of the stuff in this thread into practice