Chazzers I need help replying

[Danefied]

They are talking about food stealing and that is one of those behaviors that I have not seen a positive trainer be able to really cure. People want a dog who won't try to eat the food on the table, the shoes in the hallway, the napkins on the table, etc. I have a dog who steals stuff and know the average family is not going to be okay just keeping everything picked up for the next 12 years while they have the dog. If they can stop the stealing by using abusive methods they will, it's either that or have your things destroyed and let your dog continue this potentially deadly behavior. Teaching a leave it only works for things that are temporarily there. If I have my lunch on the table and need to step out of the room for something I could say leave it and have my food remain safe. But for something that's just THERE, pens that lay on the coffee table, shoes that stay in the hall, candy in a candy dish for the holidays, bread that stays on the counter, or holiday decorations out for the season, then a leave it is not an appropriate command to give, you can't expect a dog to actively follow a command 24/7. Leaving these things is a matter of manners, the dog just knows never to do it, it doesn't get turned on and off by a command.

I have seen many dogs learn lovely manners using rewards.
I’m not even a pro trainer, and my dogs (trained with food) do not steal food or any other resources. Its called a DEFAULT leave it. Doggy zen, its yer choice... Explained perfectly in the video greenmagick posted. The dog learns that food is to be earned through behavior, there is no self-serve buffet.
Not one leave-it said here either. Its a default behavior. Taught with reinforcement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzoRRPRpjoU


It is unfortunate that PR training STILL has the reputation of being permissive, all about management, and not as reliable.
I think we forget too that punishment doesn’t teach SELF control. I can punish a dog for taking a shoe, but that’s not teaching the dog to be able to see the shoe and decide on his own to leave it. It simply teaches the dog to avoid the shoe, shoe = danger. That’s not necessarily going to generalize very well to other objects I don’t want the dog to mess with. JMO and experience, but behaviors taught through reinforcement seem to generalize better.

Also JMO and experience, but punishment simply can’t compete with deep seated instinctual behaviors. Wolves don’t stop chasing moose when they get kicked, they simply learn to avoid the hooves. (Yes, I know dogs aren’t wolves - pointing out about instinctual behaviors.)
Get a dog with enough drive to do certain behaviors and you’re going to quickly find yourself escalating the punishment past a quick squirt of water. Get a dog smart enough and he’ll figure out exactly when the bottle is available and when it isn’t. We had a Malamute back in college who was the smartest, sneakiest bugger. He knew exactly where the punishment was coming from and would figure out how to get around it I think just to prove he could. Kind of like dogs who sit at the edge of the electric fence letting the collar beep until the battery is drained, then go for a stroll around the neighborhood.

I’m not saying punishment doesn’t have its place. Done right, P+ can be a valuable and valid tool. Unfortunately it is rarely done right. Dogs quickly habituate to the punishment so it has to be escalated, dogs quickly figure out where its coming from so the dog learns to avoid it, dogs know its coming so it loses its surprise value... And finally punishment doesn’t teach the dog what to do, just teaches the dog what not to do. If you say don’t jump, that leaves the dog 20 other behavioral options, 19 of which you may not like either. I find its just easier to tell the dog“do THIS†and reward him for doing so.

 

[Maxy24]

I have seen many dogs learn lovely manners using rewards.

I'm not talking about ALL manners, I'm talking about stealing. Just want to make sure that is clear.

I’m not even a pro trainer, and my dogs (trained with food) do not steal food or any other resources. Its called a DEFAULT leave it. Doggy zen, its yer choice... Explained perfectly in the video greenmagick posted. The dog learns that food is to be earned through behavior, there is no self-serve buffet.
Not one leave-it said here either. Its a default behavior. Taught with reinforcement.

I think that video shows the dog is learning self control and is learning to ignore things you drop/put down but I still don't think it could take a dog who steals things and teach them to leave it always. The video is a training session, not a real life scenario. If you are going to prove to me that doing that would give someone a dog who never touched the food that sits on the counter or table 24/7 (or at least while you're home, but not in the room) then I'd need to see the dog before and after. I'm not saying you're lying, but I'd like to see proof. I could do a training session of putting pens all around Tucker and teach him to leave them to get treats. but when the training session is over he'd still go for the pens that sit on the coffee table because there is no reason not to. I can't reward him for NOT stealing because I can't reward him constantly and I wouldn't even know if he's actively controlling himself or has no knowledge of the pen/isn't thinking about it and I'd be rewarding nothing. If he gets no rewards for leaving the pens on the coffee table, because I have no way to know if he's ACTUALLY trying to leave the pens on the coffee table, then how is he going to be motivated to leave them alone?

It is unfortunate that PR training STILL has the reputation of being permissive, all about management, and not as reliable.

I don't think it's permissive or less reliable, what I was saying is that positive trainers often advise using methods that may stop the bad behavior, but don't get the owner what they wanted (owner won't get growled at for getting the dog off of the couch because the dog now knows an off command, YAY, but owner still can't physically move the dog off of the couch without getting growled at). I'm pretty sure if someone has a dog who growls when they try to move him off of the couch the positive trainer would advise not allowing the dog on the couch, and/or teaching an off command. Very few if any would advise getting the dog comfortable with you shoving it off of the couch by gently pushing-treating, and moving onto pushing harder-treating, etc. Until the dog is fine being physically removed from the couch. perhaps the trainers think the owners will find it too hard or go too quickly and get bitten, I don't know. But it would get the owner what they want so they wouldn't say the HAVE to use punishment to be able to push the dog off the couch. See I totally think positive methods would teach the dog to be fine with this, but I have never seen a positive trainer go this route nor have I ever read an article telling you to do this (maybe I just have not looked hard enough).



Tucker also isn't trained to leave individual objects, he's trained not to take anything off of the coffee table and end table and gets squirted for trying to take anything or for putting his paws on them. This way there are not a whole bunch of objects he must individually learn to leave alone, he learns not to touch things in two places. For shoes we just use bitter apple and eventually he stops bothering to test them because they always have bitter apple on them.


The way I use the squirt bottle is that if he goes for something he gets squirted and then the object is removed. I do believe that if I left the object there and he went for it repeatedly that he may be able to will himself through he squirt. The squirt is very mildly punishing for him and I do think he would try again relatively soon. More than anything the squirt acts as a way to delay him to ensure he fails at getting the item while also being a mild punisher. If we leave the house we pick up. So far it has worked very well. Unfortunately the cats throw things on the ground for him to eat *sigh*.
I will never escalate past the squirt bottle.

Also JMO and experience, but punishment simply can’t compete with deep seated instinctual behaviors.

Maybe for some dogs, but none of my uncles dogs have ever stolen food more than once. I completely disagree and am sickened by what he does to his dogs, but I'm not going to deny that the beatings he gives his dog work to stop the behavior it was doing very quickly. Max was also hit for breaking rules and was very well behaved (after Tucker snapped at mom she yelled at me and informed me that Max would have never done that, I get blamed when Tucker behaves badly because I won't let them hit him). I would never chooses to hit my dog and do consider is abusive and wrong, but I won't say such punishments don't work when timed appropriately.


I would love to not have to use the squirt bottle, it's the only area of his training that I've had to use punishment like this for. But he needs to be able to leave items that just sit on the table all of the time.

 

[Greenmagick]

Ok, so what about those dogs that get beat and still steal food? Have seen that happen too...what about the dogs that naturally just seem to leave it...that happens too. No one is saying punishment cant work, but that its not the ONLY thing that works (and yes, with food stealing its a much tougher one to crack as its so hardwired).

Yes, some dogs will instantly stop if punished....bet ya these are the same dogs that wouldve stopped with PR too.

Dogs can learn not to take things off the floor....ivy knows her toys from the kids.

 

[HayleyMarie]

Ok, so what about those dogs that get beat and still steal food? Have seen that happen too...what about the dogs that naturally just seem to leave it...that happens too. No one is saying punishment cant work, but that its not the ONLY thing that works (and yes, with food stealing its a much tougher one to crack as its so hardwired).

Yes, some dogs will instantly stop if punished....bet ya these are the same dogs that wouldve stopped with PR too.

Dogs can learn not to take things off the floor....ivy knows her toys from the kids.

Not sure if this makes sense or not, or if it would even work as Teagan does not steal anything, but what about Teaching a dog whats appropriate to play with and whats not.

If a dog picks up a shoe thats on the ground and he starts playing with it, trade it for a dog toy and praise him and play with him with that toy. And Im sure soon enough the dog would hopfully learn whats appropriate and whats not.

 

[Greenmagick]

Thats what I did with Ivy. If she picked up a kids toy or a shoe or what have you she would get a "not yours" and a trade for a toy. A couple times when really excited I have seen her grab a kids toy but she spits it right back out...like "whoops!"

 

[Doberluv]

I have seen many dogs learn lovely manners using rewards.
I’m not even a pro trainer, and my dogs (trained with food) do not steal food or any other resources. Its called a DEFAULT leave it. Doggy zen, its yer choice... Explained perfectly in the video greenmagick posted. The dog learns that food is to be earned through behavior, there is no self-serve buffet.
Not one leave-it said here either. Its a default behavior. Taught with reinforcement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzoRRPRpjoU


It is unfortunate that PR training STILL has the reputation of being permissive, all about management, and not as reliable.
I think we forget too that punishment doesn’t teach SELF control. I can punish a dog for taking a shoe, but that’s not teaching the dog to be able to see the shoe and decide on his own to leave it. It simply teaches the dog to avoid the shoe, shoe = danger. That’s not necessarily going to generalize very well to other objects I don’t want the dog to mess with. JMO and experience, but behaviors taught through reinforcement seem to generalize better.

Also JMO and experience, but punishment simply can’t compete with deep seated instinctual behaviors. Wolves don’t stop chasing moose when they get kicked, they simply learn to avoid the hooves. (Yes, I know dogs aren’t wolves - pointing out about instinctual behaviors.)
Get a dog with enough drive to do certain behaviors and you’re going to quickly find yourself escalating the punishment past a quick squirt of water. Get a dog smart enough and he’ll figure out exactly when the bottle is available and when it isn’t. We had a Malamute back in college who was the smartest, sneakiest bugger. He knew exactly where the punishment was coming from and would figure out how to get around it I think just to prove he could. Kind of like dogs who sit at the edge of the electric fence letting the collar beep until the battery is drained, then go for a stroll around the neighborhood.

I’m not saying punishment doesn’t have its place. Done right, P+ can be a valuable and valid tool. Unfortunately it is rarely done right. Dogs quickly habituate to the punishment so it has to be escalated, dogs quickly figure out where its coming from so the dog learns to avoid it, dogs know its coming so it loses its surprise value... And finally punishment doesn’t teach the dog what to do, just teaches the dog what not to do. If you say don’t jump, that leaves the dog 20 other behavioral options, 19 of which you may not like either. I find its just easier to tell the dog “do THIS†and reward him for doing so.

I LOVE that dog in the video. What a good example of self control and fine training.

 

[Beanie]

Maxy, have you read The Power of Positive Training? I think a lot of your questions are answered in it.

 

[Danefied]

I'm not talking about ALL manners, I'm talking about stealing. Just want to make sure that is clear.

Got it

I think that video shows the dog is learning self control and is learning to ignore things you drop/put down but I still don't think it could take a dog who steals things and teach them to leave it always. The video is a training session, not a real life scenario. If you are going to prove to me that doing that would give someone a dog who never touched the food that sits on the counter or table 24/7 (or at least while you're home, but not in the room) then I'd need to see the dog before and after. I'm not saying you're lying, but I'd like to see proof.

Unfortunately in "real life" scenarios, I never have a camera set up and recording. I understand you need better "proof" and all I can tell you is that none of my dogs steal food or anything else, and they did not come to us that way. I could give you numerous examples of the dog in the video not touching food without someone in the room. Just a few weeks ago I left him loose in the car for about 20 minutes with a dozen fresh from the oven still warm and smelly donuts. He didn't touch the donuts or his bag of zukes that were sitting in the front seat unzipped (or un-whatever you call it for ziplock).

Lunar was feral with scavenging behaviors well ingrained when he came to us. We absolutely practiced prevention to make sure he didn't self-reinforce but he too has learned to not eat food uninvited. I came downstairs just this morning to a bowl of cheese-its untouched on one of the end tables that one of the kids must have left. Lunar and one of our other dogs were downstairs all night unattended. Lunar is a great dane, the cheese-its are face-level with him.
Again, its a default behavior, doesn't need my presence to be enforced. The dog chooses to ignore the food, he's not responding to any particular cues from you. I taught it much the way the kikopup video shows. You're not really rewarding any particular behavior, you're simply clarifying that food being available doesn't mean help yourself.
Again, totally understand that a few youtube videos aren't going to be enough proof for you (or anyone for that matter), *I* know it works and that's good enough for me, I'm not asking anyone else to believe me if they don't want to .

I don't think it's permissive or less reliable, what I was saying is that positive trainers often advise using methods that may stop the bad behavior, but don't get the owner what they wanted (owner won't get growled at for getting the dog off of the couch because the dog now knows an off command, YAY, but owner still can't physically move the dog off of the couch without getting growled at). I'm pretty sure if someone has a dog who growls when they try to move him off of the couch the positive trainer would advise not allowing the dog on the couch, and/or teaching an off command. Very few if any would advise getting the dog comfortable with you shoving it off of the couch by gently pushing-treating, and moving onto pushing harder-treating, etc. Until the dog is fine being physically removed from the couch.

I don't have a lot of experience with different positive trainers, but the two I have worked with would absolutely also work in a desensitization component to the physical handling. Granted, it kind of makes me laugh to think of physically moving any of my giant dogs, it really is far simpler for me and my life to have the dogs respond to a "off" cue, I have no need to try and move 140 pounds of dog anywhere (unless they're incapacitated and then they would be in a sling). But I get what you're saying, and it is disappointing to hear that the trainers you've encountered haven't included the desensitization to handling component.

Maybe for some dogs, but none of my uncles dogs have ever stolen food more than once. I completely disagree and am sickened by what he does to his dogs, but I'm not going to deny that the beatings he gives his dog work to stop the behavior it was doing very quickly.

Of course punishment "works" in many instances that's why its still so popular (that and that punishment is so reinforcing for the one doing the punishing). But believe me, there are also plenty of dogs out there who just don't give a flying flamingo about what you do to them. I personally witnessed Bates get the snot beat out of him for killing chickens - on many occasions. Never stopped him. He would get his wind back, get up, limp over to the nearest chicken, kill it, and then brace for the beating he knew was coming. It was insane and he still has issues related to that treatment, but his owners at the time had no clue what else to do with him. I'm not going to say that I could leave him alone in a room with chickens and not have him touch any of them, but I do know that if I am there and I tell him to do something, he will chose to do what I tell him in lieu of killing the chickens.

FWIW, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a spray bottle (other than the very real possibility of the dog habituating or getting wise to it and learning to duck - don't laugh I've seen that too!) I see valid uses for positive punishment in very specific situations and I don't know that even the best trainers can ever totally eliminate the need for negative punishment.
But I think in any discussion about punishment, its important to be "real" about the limitations of punishment.
From my own experience:
- Dogs do habituate and develop "punishment callous" and the handler who is sold on the punishment WILL escalate in order to continue to achieve results.
- Dogs do get wise to the punishment and learn to be sneaky.
- Dogs do start developing negative associations with the environment in which they are punished and the person in their presence while punished, even if that person isn't doing the punishing.
For the points above you could absolutely say this is a result of incorrectly applied punishment. And that's the thing, punishment is honestly really hard to do "right" each and every time.

And finally punishment is simply not a very effective way to teach behaviors. A tsst and neck poke doesn't teach the dog to sit, doesn't teach the dog to come, doesn't teach the dog anything other than when he hears "tsst", to freeze and maybe brace for a poking.
CM has a video up on one of his sites where he talks about SA. Mid-way through he wants his dog Junior to go lay on a dog bed (the dog he has raised from puppyhood). What follows is the most pathetic and humorous attempt to get a dog to go to a spot and lay down I have ever seen. He had to knee the dog, shove the dog and then simply left it as a half hearted sit barely on the bed, because he has NO shared language to convey to the dog "come to this spot, lay down, stay there". He even tried to excuse it that the bed was new so Junior didn't know to lay on it. It is such a clear example of how this guy has NO CLUE how to teach a dog anything other than avoidance. Yet I'm sure people see that and completely miss the fact that this guy is so not communicating with his dogs...

Anyway, sorry for the long post. Not trying to argue, just sharing some thoughts...

 

[Danefied]

I LOVE that dog in the video. What a good example of self control and fine training.

Thanks dober

 

[*blackrose]

I don't think it's permissive or less reliable, what I was saying is that positive trainers often advise using methods that may stop the bad behavior, but don't get the owner what they wanted (owner won't get growled at for getting the dog off of the couch because the dog now knows an off command, YAY, but owner still can't physically move the dog off of the couch without getting growled at).

Just wanted to say that with Chloe (who has tolerance issues), I do use a lot of management with her. Say, for example, she growls when someone in my family tries to move her off the couch. (This has been a problem in the past, and just now has started reoccurring.) To keep the family safe, the new management rule is a.) Chloe is not allowed on the couch when people are on the couch and b.) if Chloe is on the couch and you want her to get off, you don't physically move her, you tell her "off" and she'll get off. You're right, that doesn't stop the root problem of her growling when people touch her while she's on the couch...but it does keep everybody safe and secure while we work with her on the issue.

The problem with Chloe is that she doesn't have any qualms with people touching her and moving her when she respects them. I can move her off the couch without being growled at. My younger sister's friend bumped her the other night while she was on the couch and Chloe growled and snarked at her. I can take a cow hoof out of her mouth without any problems. She grabbed one outside and when mom approached her Chloe growled.

Chloe doesn't generalize. When she respects you, she doesn't act out towards you. I can do things to her that she wouldn't tolerate a stranger doing. My boyfriend can handle her in ways that if another random male tried to do, she would severely injure. My older sister - who takes care of Chloe when I'm gone - can get her to do things that my mom cannot. For us, management is what makes Chloe safe to live with for everyone involved - not just people who have worked with her. The management isn't getting rid of the underlying issue, no, but it is effective and prevents any problems while the underlying issue is being worked on. And in Chloe's case, I can work on her tolerance and reactivity and it helps overall, but she is only ever 100% comfortable with a person if that person is the one working with her on the issue. I can make her more comfortable, but not 100%.

If that makes any sense at all.

And finally punishment is simply not a very effective way to teach behaviors. A tsst and neck poke doesn't teach the dog to sit, doesn't teach the dog to come, doesn't teach the dog anything other than when he hears "tsst", to freeze and maybe brace for a poking.

But it does stop a behavior, which then lets you direct the dog to do what you want it to do. Which is how I use it. Well, an "Ah!" anyways. Not so much a neck poke, although I will tap her on the butt on occasion. lol

 

[Doberluv]

Thanks dober

Is that YOU????

 

[Greenmagick]

Is that YOU????

She is not online right now, but yes, her and Bates

 

[Danefied]

Is that YOU????

Yeppers. Me 'n Bates. I was just thinking today, remember where his heel was a year ago? This is where its at now:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-....337634152933093.91489.287899437906565&type=3

Trained with reinforcement of course

Edit - thanks Nicole!! Now back to my hole

 

[Doberluv]

Oh! I wasn't sure...thought it might be an example from a random thing on the Internet...didn't recognize Bates. Your heeling pictures are fantastic! Your body language reminds me of me in those heeling pictures. I'm impressed with how far you guys have come.

 

[Maxy24]

Unfortunately in "real life" scenarios, I never have a camera set up and recording. I understand you need better "proof" and all I can tell you is that none of my dogs steal food or anything else, and they did not come to us that way.

Lunar was feral with scavenging behaviors well ingrained when he came to us. We absolutely practiced prevention to make sure he didn't self-reinforce but he too has learned to not eat food uninvited. I came downstairs just this morning to a bowl of cheese-its untouched on one of the end tables that one of the kids must have left. Lunar and one of our other dogs were downstairs all night unattended. Lunar is a great dane, the cheese-its are face-level with him.
Again, its a default behavior, doesn't need my presence to be enforced. The dog chooses to ignore the food, he's not responding to any particular cues from you. I taught it much the way the kikopup video shows. You're not really rewarding any particular behavior, you're simply clarifying that food being available doesn't mean help yourself.
Again, totally understand that a few youtube videos aren't going to be enough proof for you (or anyone for that matter), *I* know it works and that's good enough for me, I'm not asking anyone else to believe me if they don't want to

Well then perhaps I should give it a try. I just have a hard time logically figuring out how the dog would make the decision to ignore the food if he's not being actively rewarded for doing it outside of the training sessions. But perhaps the only way to find out is to try it myself. I had also thought about tempting him onto the coffee table and rewarding him for not going. Things like dragging a toy or bouncing a ball across the table. Just to cement in his head that you don't grab off of the table. But again it would be training sessions where I knew he was actively controlling himself. But even if they don't completely eliminate the need for the squirt bottle at least he'll have a stronger foundation for resisting the urge to grab from the table and it might make things more clear for him.

And of course you don't have to prove anything to me! I just know many people choose punishment for things like this because they never see the positive method working in real life or they're told they can't get what they want with positive methods. Sure some people enjoy punishing their dogs (like my uncle), but I'm sure there are some who use those methods simply because they think they must in order to get the behavior they want from their dogs. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people who struggle with stealing dogs be told "well pick up, keep those items out of reach" and that's that. The owner is left feeling like they either have to go to the "dark side" or have to keep these things out of their dog's reach for the rest of his life. And when you have a dog like Tucker you're talking about keeping everything out of reach except paper. So I feel like people could be brought over to the positive side of things if there is proof, like videos which show the dog as his stealing self (or even just descriptions of this part), and then him later chilling on the couch or just walking around the room while there is chinese food on the coffee table and people with plates in their lap sitting around him. Or in Tucker's case lying next to a used napkin or tissue and not eating it! Or a dog who growls when moved and then showing him being perfectly fine with it later. Then maybe CM would have fewer followers, who knows.


And I completely understand using prevention/management WHILE working on training the dog. Having to clean up until the dog is trained to not steal is absolutely fine, I think most people would be fine with that. It's the idea that it's something you must do for years and years is what drives people to use punishment. I also think prevention/management is fine long term if that's what you want. In many cases it's much easier. I mean why spend the time training the dog to stay out of the trash if you can just slap a lid on it and be done? Why work through the long desensitization process to be able to push your dog off of the couch when you could just teach an off command? I think that's a fine way to go if you want and it's likely why many trainers go that route, it's easier and they know owners are more likely to do what's easy. But when you are trying to get someone to switch from punishment to positive methods they often see these things and believe that you CAN'T train the dog to leave the trash and be tolerant of getting moved with positive methods and so you must use prevention and management. I know when Tucker has growled about getting moved and I say "well just tell him to get off" and get told "but I should be able to move him without getting growled at" and I think they are right, if they'd rather be able to physically move him than just use the off command then they should be told the positive method to do this. So to really convince people to leave physical punishment behind they need to know they can get whatever manners and behaviors they want using positive means. So that is why I think it's important to always give both options, the management/prevention and the "cure" for the specific behavior so that the owner knows it can be cured positively but it might be quicker and simpler to just manage or prevent it, like with trash.



I also completely agree about the drawbacks of punishment. One of the main reasons my parents have listened to my pleads to not hit the dog is because of uncle's dog. None of us particularly like her because of her personality, and it's not her fault. She's SO scared. If I accidentally bump into her she jumps a foot in the air because if she get under uncle's feet she gets hollered at and kicked. My uncle will often tell stories about something that happened at work and it involves him reenacting an argument, including the yelling, and when he starts the dog will pace and eventually hide and shake because he's yelling (she's very sound sensitive in general). I was LIVID when she was sniffing Tucker's butt "too long" and uncle yelled at her to cut it out. Might as well kiss any chance of them being comfortable with each other good bye (she's scared of him). It's like she's walking on the edge of a knife all of the time, I get nervous just LOOKING at her because she is constantly afraid that she's going to mess up and get in trouble so she tries really hard to do nothing and when she does do something you can tell she's terrified of what might happen. During Christmas she came over and hid under uncle's chair most of the time. Uncle commented on what a good dog she had been. He sees a well behaved dog because she's out of the way, it's really sad. She has no personality. If I holler at Tucker he cocks his head, wags his tail and high fives my face. I like it that way. Even my parents aren't willing to make their dog that afraid just so he never does anything they don't like. I don't understand how someone can be so MEAN to their dog, make them shake, yelp, pee, cower. I'd be sick and in tears. What's odd about my uncle's dog is when I train her, as in have a training session, she a COMPLETELY different dog. She makes me smile and laugh because she knows she's safe in training sessions since I'm the only one that does them with her (they don't care if she knows commands, just manners) so she happily offers behaviors and can be pushy. She is always SO excited for the sessions and it's not the tight, nervous excitement she usually shows. So I fully understand the repercussions of punishment.


As for trading a stolen item for a toy, he'll have none of it. If you moved towards him when he has a stolen item he bolts, if you could actually catch him and touch the object he clamps down really hard. Showing a toy or food does nothing. if you really force the issue you get growled at. Since I've been working on the guarding he will still bolt if you move at him but if you stay still and tell him to bring it or drop it he does and will accept a food reward. He still won't give a toot about any toy you offer, I've tried rotating toy and he only gives the newly rotated toys extra attention for like five seconds. If he has to choose between guarding his brand new cool, full of possibilities stolen item and taking his own toy it's a really easy choice. So I've adopted the policy that I can deal with stealing before he touches the object (so I can squirt him for going for it) but if I miss it and he already has the object it's too late to deal with the stealing without creating guarding issues, now it's time to make him okay with me taking things from him. So I ask for the object or go up and take the object. If I take it I just give it right back, if he brought it I give a treat and give it back. It's really made a difference, he has no issues with me around his stolen things. If I must take the things away because it's dangerous or important then I must trick him into leaving it behind. I either toss a bunch of treats on the floor and wait for him to go eat them, then take the item while he's not looking, or I run around like a wild child with one of his toys and he eventually can't help but chase me and eventually drop the item. Again I pick it up only when he is not looking. Sometimes I'll keep something I asked for, but I'll make sure to give a longer reward, like a game of tug and chase. I'm actually really surprised how well it works. Dad was chasing him around trying to get underwear away from him. I told dad to stop and I slapped my leg and told him to bring it. He didn't hesitate for one second, trotted right over, stood up, put the underwear in my hand and let go. So yeah, I don't want to do anything to jeopardize that, so I try not to take anything directly away form him, even if it is a trade.

Sorry if I've hijacked the thread!

 

[Danefied]

Well then perhaps I should give it a try. I just have a hard time logically figuring out how the dog would make the decision to ignore the food if he's not being actively rewarded for doing it outside of the training sessions.

It doesn’t make much sense does it? I’m probably wrong, I still don’t completely understand how it works, but I think of it more as conditioning than training a specific behavior. Almost like desensitization to food outside of the training context if that makes sense. In the same way you can condition a dog to really like a specific tug toy or obsess over a bite-sleeve, the opposite is also true. You can condition a dog to feel ho-hum about food in certain contexts. Dogs don’t generalize well, but they very much get context.
Also, don’t forget that intermittent rewards are MORE powerful. Unlike punishment that loses its power unless you punish correctly each and every time, rewards become more powerful if you miss one (or more). So if the dog has been rewarded for a default leave it, and you miss one, it just makes the default leave it behavior stronger (as long as you continue to reward every once in a while).

I just know many people choose punishment for things like this because they never see the positive method working in real life or they're told they can't get what they want with positive methods. Sure some people enjoy punishing their dogs (like my uncle), but I'm sure there are some who use those methods simply because they think they must in order to get the behavior they want from their dogs.

I think the reasons people reach for punishment are complex. I agree that the majority of those who punish don’t do it because they enjoy it (though in big dogs and horses especially you do get a significant minority who get their jollies from the feeling of power they get “breaking†a big, bad animal.)

Why people feel the need to punish though is a topic all unto itself and not really a dog related one - other than as Ian Dunbar says dogs are so “punishable†in that they quickly forgive and generally grovel back to you appeasing the whole way. We’d be much less inclined to use punishment on dogs if more people got bitten - badly, every time they did something stupid like try to pin a dog on his side. Fortunately for us, unfortunately for them, dogs are really amazingly tolerant and forgiving of human stupidity.

I think the Milgram Effect has a lot to do with our society’s fascination with punishment - not just with our animals but our kids, spare the rod and all that jazz.
Punishment itself is also rewarding to the punisher. My kid whines (annoying to me), I yell, whining stops, I am rewarded for yelling in a classic example of negative reinforcement. Granted it may only be a temporary reprieve, but its still a moment of no whining that I will attempt to duplicate the next time whining happens. And since the kid will quickly desensitize to the yelling, I will have to escalate the punishment. Yell, louder yell, smack, slap, etc. etc. etc. Its no wonder that by the time most kids are teenagers they lose all respect for their parents! But this is a whole ‘nother tangent LOL!!

So I feel like people could be brought over to the positive side of things if there is proof, like videos which show the dog as his stealing self (or even just descriptions of this part), and then him later chilling on the couch or just walking around the room while there is chinese food on the coffee table and people with plates in their lap sitting around him. Or in Tucker's case lying next to a used napkin or tissue and not eating it! Or a dog who growls when moved and then showing him being perfectly fine with it later. Then maybe CM would have fewer followers, who knows.

I dunno... I’ve played that game, probably too much. You know the “everything you can do I can do betterâ€, and it always declines in to “yeah butâ€.
- yeah but you have a biddable dog.
- yeah but that’s a border collie recalling, not a sight hound.
- yeah but would that training hold up under the stress of “real world†distractions - generally meaning whatever distraction you haven’t shown. Show a dog recalling away from another dog and they want to see a squirrel run across the road too. Never mind that for some dogs (like one of mine) squirrels are insignificant compared to the potential to play with another dog.
- yeah but some dogs aren’t motivated by food (I’ve always wanted to meet these dogs who magically stay alive without ever eating. I get having trouble conditioning toy drive in a mellow dog, but seriously, if you can’t get a dog to work for something he needs in order to not die, either the dog is in a constant state of mild panic, or you suck at conditioning drive. (You meant in general, not anyone specific )
AFAIK, the PR/Clicker camp has very convincingly shown how you can achieve the exact same if not better results with rewards as you can with punishment. Susan Garrett, Steve White, Pam Dennison, Jane Killion, Hannah Brannigan... Shoot in my own neck of the woods, Bit Jordan has the most titled lab in the nation - including field/hunting titles, her dogs are all PR trained. The evidence IS out there. Its just whether or not people want to hear it, which circles back to why people punish. People will figure out a way to justify their needs.

As for Tucker’s stealing - what you describe, the bolting, the clamping down harder, etc., totally normal. Not acceptable, but it is very typical of a dog who is frightened to lose a resource. Just wanted to let you know that this is normal behavior and you don’t have a freak of nature dog
Not only is it normal, it is very fixable too. Have you tried the scatter method of teaching drop? This video is pretty long but I really recommend watching it from start to finish. Some people don’t get how you can teach a dog “drop†without them having anything in their mouth, but if you watch ‘till the end he does connect the dots. I think it would be helpful for Tucker so he can develop a truly neutral then positive association with the cue for drop. Right now he probably associates being told to drop with losing a resource, that’s hard to work against, even with the bestest treats (as you have already seen). It also really desensitizes the dog to hands around food.
Anyway, HTH:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndTiVOCNY4M&feature=related

 

[Meatos]

The reality is that 90% of all training is MANAGEMENT. In some cases, you DO have to do it for years and years and years, if not for the life of the dog.

It astounds me that many dog owners don't give their dogs any leeway when they get into things they aren't supposed to. With kids, do we not put all poisonous substances (i.e. bleach) in out of reach places, and secure the cupboards with child-proof locks? Do we not baby gate the stairs so they don't attempt them? Do we not put socket covers in the wall outlets to keep them from electrocuting themselves? Sure, these things come out after awhile as the kids grow up...but not for a few years. I wouldn't trust a three year old around plug outlets anymore than I would trust a six month old.

If we are already so accustomed to managing our households and lifestyles, then why do we continuously see management of our dogs as a training failure? If a dog gets up on the counters and steals food, it's automatically deemed a badly trained dog. If a dog mistakes your shoe for a toy, it's a badly trained dog. But I see it as a badly managed environment. It honestly drives me nuts when a client says to me "My dog is obsessed with socks and will eat them. He needed a $2000 surgery last year to remove 12 socks from his obstructed bowel. I'm afraid he could die if he does it again, how do I stop it?" and then they balk when the answer is as simple as "put your socks away" because that's not "training the dog." How is keeping harmful (in this case) socks away from your dog any different than keeping the bleach on top of the fridge away from your kids? And sure, you might have to keep your socks away from the dog for its entire life (12+ years of remembering to put your laundry away), but if the dog's life is in danger, how is management not worth it? A dog who will eat 12 socks and require surgery can be trained, yes, but I don't think that dog could ever be trusted. Think of it like a drug addict - they can be rehabbed for sure, but many fall off the wagon again. Doesn't make them bad people. But apparently it makes for bad dogs?

The only management tool that it seems all trainers from all schools of thought can agree on (to a large degree anyway) is crating. And this is probably the biggest form of management of them all if you're a dog owner. Some people DO crate their dogs for life out of necessity.

Sorry, this is just an out of the blue soapbox rant. I'm seeing the topic of management pop up elsewhere on the internet and had to get it out. People don't see its value beyond the beginning stages, but the reality truly is that 90% of all training is management whether we realise it or not.

 

[Doberluv]

That's a great video....wonderful method of conditioning the dog to dropping anything. Nice and gradual. The trouble people often have is expecting their dog to let something of HIGH value be taken from them when they need to work up the ladder of value-hierarchy. If a dog is accustomed to having things taken away from him without any conditioning (gradual) ...this is where a lot of the signs of feeling threatened come from. Some dogs need more work than others in this department.

 

[Maxy24]

Tucker's drop it is actually fine, he listens to it very well. He bolts if you move at him (though it is possible this aspect is just fun) but if you just stand up he starts to bolt, then stops and looks at you and waits for you to make the next move. If you move towards him he runs, if you say drop it or bring it here he immediately and bouncily does so (then asks if he may please have his cookie now, which I then go get).

He actually guards if you don't ask for the item but just go and try to take it from him. Lately he's started letting go when you reach for it, he is anticipating a drop it cue and just does it, so he gets a treat for that. But sometimes, if it's something really good (like a cat toy) he'll clamp down and growl if you push. So I've made a lot of effort to make sure I ask him to give them up (with the drop it command) so I can give them right back, it makes him much more comfortable with people reaching for those items. The only big issue is if you grab HIM while he has something, then you really upset him. Why people can't just use their words I don't know. But he follows the drop it fine for nearly everything, the issue comes when you use your hands instead of your voice. I will look at that video though, it's buffering.

I'm afraid he could die if he does it again, how do I stop it?" and then they balk when the answer is as simple as "put your socks away" because that's not "training the dog." How is keeping harmful (in this case) socks away from your dog any different than keeping the bleach on top of the fridge away from your kids? And sure, you might have to keep your socks away from the dog for its entire life (12+ years of remembering to put your laundry away), but if the dog's life is in danger, how is management not worth it?

If there were only the two options, pick up or let your dog eat socks, then I'm sure people would happily pick up, or at least they'd do their best. But people are usually presented with the third option of punish the dog. If people can just hit their dogs and as a result NOT have to constantly clean up, then I do expect people to choose that. Especially when you are talking about a dog who doesn't just go for one thing. Tucker chewed (he didn't eat, just chewed, if the dog's life was actually at stake it is a bit different) everything. Things we had no clue he would want. He chewed my dad's cell phone and his head light (like a light that goes on your head, not his car), two things I never would have expected him to go for. Pens, pencils, napkins, tissues, hairbrushes, mom's blood meter/strips/pouch it's kept in, plastic cups, shoes, socks, the backscratcher, straws, tupperware, and the list goes on. Basically if it wasn't a piece of flat paper or solid glass he'd give it a go. Even things that we had been leaving on the table for weeks and he hadn't shown interest in (like that headlight), he'd one day decide to take and destroy. We never even thought to put it up because he had shown day after day that he had no interest in it. You are asking someone to make significant changes to their behavior, behavior they have been doing for decades and it's difficult and mistakes, expensive and dangerous mistakes, are likely to be made along the way. So if people are told they can hit the dog and not have to make those changes to their behavior, they likely will if the only other other option is to make those changes and loose some precious items along the way. That's why I'm interest in a less punitive method to really reduce or cure the stealing as opposed to the standard management advice, because I know some people won't stand for that and I don't altogether blame them.

Children are different because they take longer to mature. Most people know a small child is not mentally capable of learning what they can and cannot do. They wait until the child is old enough to know these things and then they DO start teaching them they can't do things like drink bleach and run in the street. People expect the same from their dogs, when they are mentally capable of learning (which happens a lot earlier than in humans) they can start teaching them rules. Unfortunately dogs don't understand language so it's not as easy as giving the child a talking to. And hey, plenty of parents do hit their kids for breaking safety rules like that. So yes, parents keep things out of reach, but only until they can teach them not eat/play with those things. They expect to do the same with their dogs.


I'm not arguing that management is bad or inferior to getting rid of the behavior, I'm just saying I know many, many people will not accept that as the final answer and so they turn to harsh punishment because it at least has a chance of actually getting rid of the behavior so they don't have to change their own life and behavior to accommodate the dog's stealing. Only if harsh punishment and any other methods they are given fail will they switch to management (or dump the dog). In my real life I have never met people who don't hit their dogs, so it's not like my parents have all these well behaved positively trained dogs to look at. All the dogs we know have good manners and get hit, so for me it's a battle to keep my parents on board with not hitting him.

 

[Sweet72947]

Daisy only steals food from the kitchen when people are absent from the room. If we are there, she wouldn't dare think about filching a thing. For dogs that steal food/objects in front of you, yes there are ways to teach self control and manners. But IMO when you aren't around management is the best way to go. How are you supposed to correct/train a behavior when you AREN'T THERE TO SEE IT?

ETA: If Tucker were mine, I would supervise closely when I am there and correct/redirect to appropriate chewing material if I saw him try to go for something inappropriate, and when I wasn't around, I would crate him or put him in a dog-proof room. He might also need more exercise/mental stimulation. Rocky will mostly only chew his toys, but if he is left unsupervised he will chew anything he finds, and the abovementioned method is what I use with him if I have to petsit for my parents.