Cesar Millan works with Ian Dunbar?!
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Whether you like his methods or not, Cesar's got a lot of name recognition. Outside of the small world of dog training, Dunbar does not. go up to 10 random people on the street, I bet most know of Milan, and I bet none know of Dunbar.
Maybe it's Dunbar who's trying to get more recognition for himself by associating with Milan with this book?
Maybe it's Dunbar who's trying to get more recognition for himself by associating with Milan with this book?
But why does everyone assume he does want recognition (he might, but he has done things in the past the indicate that isn't important) He did have his own tv show etc. He is a scientist, not saying that scientists can't want recognition. But most people don't go into science to become celebrities, esp when you go on to get your doctorate. You do that because you want to find answers. Milan seems to be as much if not more about the fame than about the dogs I don't know why its seen as name grabbing on his part. Its like saying a well respected Dr of medicine who writes a piece on health for a quack's (very popular quacks) book is trying to get fame. Perhaps they just want to minimize the quack's damage.
I think its more what Allie said. He is EXTREMELY passionate about humane training and socializing dogs before its a problem. I can totally see him doing this to try to expose people to positive methods.
I think its more what Allie said. He is EXTREMELY passionate about humane training and socializing dogs before its a problem. I can totally see him doing this to try to expose people to positive methods.
I've seen Ian interviewed and have seen him speak and he is a soft spoken, very unassuming gentleman. He does not strike me in any way, shape or form as someone trying to attract attention to himself. Not one bit. In fact, being in public, I see a man who is not terribly comfortable with all that. He is a man who has no reason to get public recognition...from my perspective. I believe he truly wants dogs and their owners to see a superior way to train, to view and interact with their dogs...a way that is in line with the way dogs ARE with humans. I think he wants to counter-act some of the very poor information Milan has been doling out for a long time. Now, that's a man who seems to luxuriate in all the Hollywood glitter. He just oozes with "charm" and public schmooze. And that's the fuel he's running on. So when people buy Mr. Hollywood's books, they'll get some exposure to another viewpoint...one based on the science of dogs, with some real back-up. I'm hoping people will get sick of Milan and how he looks at dogs as a human's opponents and begin to see the way dogs really ARE. People like Dunbar need to come out of the woodwork more.
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I think Caesar is absolutely terrifying, just because I have seen perfectly mentally stable, friendly, loving dogs become downright fear aggressive in two weeks or so because their owners started watching Caesar. The scary part is, they do listen to the owners out of absolute terror, but I'm just waiting for one of them to rip the face off a child that scares them.
Caesar has come under a lot of criticism in the training world lately, and he could certainly be "using" Dunbar to try and regain some of his credibility.
I really wish more awareness would be raised about how a lot of the things he does are completely wrong, bizarre, and downright dangerous. Sure, he does a lot of things well, but to me that doesn't undo the abusive and dangerous things he teaches, especially when for a lot of people the only training advice they get is by watching "The Dog Whisperer". To me, it seems he thinks that dogs are a) wolves. and b) think that people are also wolves).
Caesar has come under a lot of criticism in the training world lately, and he could certainly be "using" Dunbar to try and regain some of his credibility.
I really wish more awareness would be raised about how a lot of the things he does are completely wrong, bizarre, and downright dangerous. Sure, he does a lot of things well, but to me that doesn't undo the abusive and dangerous things he teaches, especially when for a lot of people the only training advice they get is by watching "The Dog Whisperer". To me, it seems he thinks that dogs are a) wolves. and b) think that people are also wolves).
Yes. You are wise.
I don't post here very often anymore due to this being an anti-Cesar board, but I have to say I'm reading a lot of good stuff from Ian Dunbar these days. Kudos to him for speaking out and finally addressing some big problems in the dog training profession. It's about time.
Check out his blog: Dr. Ian Dunbar | Dog Star Daily
I don't post here very often anymore due to this being an anti-Cesar board, but I have to say I'm reading a lot of good stuff from Ian Dunbar these days. Kudos to him for speaking out and finally addressing some big problems in the dog training profession. It's about time.
Check out his blog: Dr. Ian Dunbar | Dog Star Daily
I'll pipe in here since the other thread got totally ignored LOL!
I am honestly torn on this one. On the one hand I wish Millan would just go away. But he has incredible charisma and half of Hollywood behind him, so I don't think he's going anywhere soon. So if he is going to be in the spotlight, I'm glad that at least he had decided to bring lure/reward training, clicker training, and the science of how dogs learn along with him this time.
I sat in B&N the other day and read good chunks of his book. He still misses the mark on a lot of stuff, but he is also giving a fair shake to others' POV. I read most of the chapter on Dunbar, and I was very pleased with both how well lure/reward training was presented and explained, but also how honest the book was about where Dunbar disagrees with Cesar and why.
In an age where trainers make all encompassing statements like "treat training creates aggression" and have entire pages of their websites dedicated to condemning any training that's remotely positive, I appreciate someone with Millan's reach putting the information out there accurately and fairly.
Don't get me wrong, I still got very irritated with some parts, I find it frustrating that he calls his finger pokes "touch" instead of admitting them to be the aversive they are, or that he doesn't seem to understand (or want to admit) that collar pops on a slip lead is not "just" using body language and calm energy.
But I respect and admire Dunbar, and the book also shows much respect and admiration for him too.
You know what struck me the most though? Dunbar taught Millan's dog Junior to sit and down. Millan has had that pup from 8 weeks and at over 2 years when he went to see Dunbar, the dog had never learned to sit on command! And Millan doesn't even appear fazed in the least to admit that!!
I am honestly torn on this one. On the one hand I wish Millan would just go away. But he has incredible charisma and half of Hollywood behind him, so I don't think he's going anywhere soon. So if he is going to be in the spotlight, I'm glad that at least he had decided to bring lure/reward training, clicker training, and the science of how dogs learn along with him this time.
I sat in B&N the other day and read good chunks of his book. He still misses the mark on a lot of stuff, but he is also giving a fair shake to others' POV. I read most of the chapter on Dunbar, and I was very pleased with both how well lure/reward training was presented and explained, but also how honest the book was about where Dunbar disagrees with Cesar and why.
In an age where trainers make all encompassing statements like "treat training creates aggression" and have entire pages of their websites dedicated to condemning any training that's remotely positive, I appreciate someone with Millan's reach putting the information out there accurately and fairly.
Don't get me wrong, I still got very irritated with some parts, I find it frustrating that he calls his finger pokes "touch" instead of admitting them to be the aversive they are, or that he doesn't seem to understand (or want to admit) that collar pops on a slip lead is not "just" using body language and calm energy.
But I respect and admire Dunbar, and the book also shows much respect and admiration for him too.
You know what struck me the most though? Dunbar taught Millan's dog Junior to sit and down. Millan has had that pup from 8 weeks and at over 2 years when he went to see Dunbar, the dog had never learned to sit on command! And Millan doesn't even appear fazed in the least to admit that!!
One thing CM never was invited to do a TED talk
Ian Dunbar on dog-friendly dog training | Video on TED.com
Dunbar has.
(for those who don't know what TED talks are, is a set of seminars by the worlds most brilliant or interesting speakers. When it comes to science you have to have some sort of credibility)
Ian Dunbar on dog-friendly dog training | Video on TED.com
Dunbar has.
(for those who don't know what TED talks are, is a set of seminars by the worlds most brilliant or interesting speakers. When it comes to science you have to have some sort of credibility)
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He was more vested in the 'science' world. Less in the public eye. Also he has said he doesn't want to do any more speaking tours etc. I don't think he wants more 'fame'. I did get to see him during his last speaking tour years ago. One thing I liked is that it was easy to just go up and talk to him on the breaks (it was a two day talk on aggression in pet dogs). I had a nice one on one talk with him about Dekka being attacked by her littermates.
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I see thanks. 
Then it would be nice if people see this book as an oportunity for people (mostly owners without too mush experience) to learn good ways of training.
I don't agree with all Cesar metods but at least now I heard of people knowing a dog needs exercise and training from watching the show.
I think is the culture difference but peoeple should take into account Cesar Milan is a latino and as far he don't tell people to punch o kick your dogs , this has chanded the minds of some persons.
Many people here in latin america are like "animals only understand with hits" by many people, as here in latin america many people abuse their dogs by punching of kicking them.
Now I heard somethimes "in the TV there's a guy who says you have to train your dog and that way he will listen to you."
Then it would be nice if people see this book as an oportunity for people (mostly owners without too mush experience) to learn good ways of training.
I don't agree with all Cesar metods but at least now I heard of people knowing a dog needs exercise and training from watching the show.
I think is the culture difference but peoeple should take into account Cesar Milan is a latino and as far he don't tell people to punch o kick your dogs , this has chanded the minds of some persons.
Many people here in latin america are like "animals only understand with hits" by many people, as here in latin america many people abuse their dogs by punching of kicking them.
Now I heard somethimes "in the TV there's a guy who says you have to train your dog and that way he will listen to you."
What he does is better than hitting and kicking, but not by much. He doesn't train his dogs (even he says that).
I found it interesting in Dunbar's TED talk, he briefly touches on the idea that humans default behaviour is to punish. We 'like' to punish as a species. So some charismatic man comes on TV and tells us its ok to punish our dogs (though by jabbing, strangling and shocking as well as intimidation) its going to be accepted by the 'masses'. The problem is that what he promotes (other than the obvious that dogs need exercise... but I mean really if he said dogs need water.. would that also make him a guru lol?) fills rescues and shelters. This is why the American Humane society spoke out against him as well as the American Veterinary Behaviourists. (though the HSUS likes him and has given him an award)
People who already know dogs might be able to dig through the stuff in his books and glean a little something here or there.. but the main issue is he does far more damage than good in the long run. I personally have seen dogs who were fine, and then when people started punishing the dog for their lack of training it (omg the dog is being dominant) the dog started biting. These people had been reffered to good trainer (Ado in fact) but they were so set on the idea that they had to dominate this dog that they wouldn't reward the dog.
I agree with Carrie, the idea that 'rehabbing' a dog is any different than training is silly. Which is why his methods dont' work. What he is doing isn't natural. But I would say after how much evolution, humans controlling the dog's environment and 'owning' the resources is fairly natural.
I found it interesting in Dunbar's TED talk, he briefly touches on the idea that humans default behaviour is to punish. We 'like' to punish as a species. So some charismatic man comes on TV and tells us its ok to punish our dogs (though by jabbing, strangling and shocking as well as intimidation) its going to be accepted by the 'masses'. The problem is that what he promotes (other than the obvious that dogs need exercise... but I mean really if he said dogs need water.. would that also make him a guru lol?) fills rescues and shelters. This is why the American Humane society spoke out against him as well as the American Veterinary Behaviourists. (though the HSUS likes him and has given him an award)
People who already know dogs might be able to dig through the stuff in his books and glean a little something here or there.. but the main issue is he does far more damage than good in the long run. I personally have seen dogs who were fine, and then when people started punishing the dog for their lack of training it (omg the dog is being dominant) the dog started biting. These people had been reffered to good trainer (Ado in fact) but they were so set on the idea that they had to dominate this dog that they wouldn't reward the dog.
I agree with Carrie, the idea that 'rehabbing' a dog is any different than training is silly. Which is why his methods dont' work. What he is doing isn't natural. But I would say after how much evolution, humans controlling the dog's environment and 'owning' the resources is fairly natural.
I do too, and I also find it fascinating where he often talks about how this is not only a way to be with dogs, but with children and spouses too.
Also kind of cool that one more person now knows about Dunbar b/c of this thread
For me the real epiphany in dog training came after becoming a mom. Two main reasons. DH and I have agreed before kids that we would not discipline our children physically with began the broadening of my horizons.
Secondly, as the kids grew, I realized that if they were to become involved in the dogs' training, the DOG training could not be based on physical discipline.
Said children are now 8 (twins), and we have a houseful of dogs trained without intimidation or fear who are as well (even better) behaved and reliable than our previous dogs.
But the first step really is to examine yourself and your own biases/motives when training your dog. We ARE a punitive society and we ARE kind of stuck in the mentality that the only way to control behavior is through force, fear, or intimidation. But when you reject that notion, a whole new world of possibilities opens up. Its good stuff
Also kind of cool that one more person now knows about Dunbar b/c of this thread
For me the real epiphany in dog training came after becoming a mom. Two main reasons. DH and I have agreed before kids that we would not discipline our children physically with began the broadening of my horizons.
Secondly, as the kids grew, I realized that if they were to become involved in the dogs' training, the DOG training could not be based on physical discipline.
Said children are now 8 (twins), and we have a houseful of dogs trained without intimidation or fear who are as well (even better) behaved and reliable than our previous dogs.
But the first step really is to examine yourself and your own biases/motives when training your dog. We ARE a punitive society and we ARE kind of stuck in the mentality that the only way to control behavior is through force, fear, or intimidation. But when you reject that notion, a whole new world of possibilities opens up. Its good stuff
I had a convo today with a "trainer" at my store that reminded me of this thread... it went like this:
Trainer: *Tsshhhh* (jokingly)
Me: Whoa! Did you just Cesar Millan me?
Trainer: I don't like Cesar Millan!
Me: That's awesome. We have something in common!
Trainer: He acts like he's a trainer, but he's not...
Me: Seriously!!! Shutting dogs down in record time is NOT training.
Trainer:....he's like, a behaviorist, you know?
Me: *sigh* Not reeeally...
That's such a good point about how people (some people in particular) want to punish. It is called "compulsive" training, after all. It makes my skin crawl to see how some people interact with their dogs... just in the meanest, most obsessive, controlling manner. Why even have a dog? Don't they feel guilt, remorse, or any inkling of care for a very sensitive and intelligent animal? Don't they realize that we are supposed to be much smarter than dogs, and we don't need to use brute force? I doubt that even cavemen treated their dogs like these dominance obsessed barbarians.
The guy that I mentioned earlier, with the Iggy mix who will literally guard the treats that are in YOUR pocket after being "Dog Whisperered" for a year now, used to be one of my closest friends. I thought he was one of the sweetest people in the world. Now I cannot even stand to be in his presence and he has become this cold-hearted person who scares me. I will never forgive my other "friend", who is a complete moron who has never read one single book and believes anything on tv religiously, for corrupting him as soon as they started dating and turning him into a very unhappy person. I know for a FACT that his dog would be a complete gentleman had I "rehabilitated" him with praise and rewards and love.
Trainer: *Tsshhhh* (jokingly)
Me: Whoa! Did you just Cesar Millan me?
Trainer: I don't like Cesar Millan!
Me: That's awesome.
We have something in common!Trainer: He acts like he's a trainer, but he's not...
Me: Seriously!!! Shutting dogs down in record time is NOT training.
Trainer:....he's like, a behaviorist, you know?
Me: *sigh*
Not reeeally...That's such a good point about how people (some people in particular) want to punish. It is called "compulsive" training, after all. It makes my skin crawl to see how some people interact with their dogs... just in the meanest, most obsessive, controlling manner. Why even have a dog? Don't they feel guilt, remorse, or any inkling of care for a very sensitive and intelligent animal? Don't they realize that we are supposed to be much smarter than dogs, and we don't need to use brute force? I doubt that even cavemen treated their dogs like these dominance obsessed barbarians.
The guy that I mentioned earlier, with the Iggy mix who will literally guard the treats that are in YOUR pocket after being "Dog Whisperered" for a year now, used to be one of my closest friends. I thought he was one of the sweetest people in the world. Now I cannot even stand to be in his presence and he has become this cold-hearted person who scares me. I will never forgive my other "friend", who is a complete moron who has never read one single book and believes anything on tv religiously, for corrupting him as soon as they started dating and turning him into a very unhappy person. I know for a FACT that his dog would be a complete gentleman had I "rehabilitated" him with praise and rewards and love.
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I do too, and I also find it fascinating where he often talks about how this is not only a way to be with dogs, but with children and spouses too.
Also kind of cool that one more person now knows about Dunbar b/c of this thread
For me the real epiphany in dog training came after becoming a mom. Two main reasons. DH and I have agreed before kids that we would not discipline our children physically with began the broadening of my horizons.
Secondly, as the kids grew, I realized that if they were to become involved in the dogs' training, the DOG training could not be based on physical discipline.
Said children are now 8 (twins), and we have a houseful of dogs trained without intimidation or fear who are as well (even better) behaved and reliable than our previous dogs.
But the first step really is to examine yourself and your own biases/motives when training your dog. We ARE a punitive society and we ARE kind of stuck in the mentality that the only way to control behavior is through force, fear, or intimidation. But when you reject that notion, a whole new world of possibilities opens up. Its good stuff
Also kind of cool that one more person now knows about Dunbar b/c of this thread
For me the real epiphany in dog training came after becoming a mom. Two main reasons. DH and I have agreed before kids that we would not discipline our children physically with began the broadening of my horizons.
Secondly, as the kids grew, I realized that if they were to become involved in the dogs' training, the DOG training could not be based on physical discipline.
Said children are now 8 (twins), and we have a houseful of dogs trained without intimidation or fear who are as well (even better) behaved and reliable than our previous dogs.
But the first step really is to examine yourself and your own biases/motives when training your dog. We ARE a punitive society and we ARE kind of stuck in the mentality that the only way to control behavior is through force, fear, or intimidation. But when you reject that notion, a whole new world of possibilities opens up. Its good stuff
I see, hm is hard to notice the effect on shelters when there's no one here.
But I can see how some people without too mush experience in dogs can take the wrong idea with the alpha parts.
The last month there was a visit of like 5 people in our house for my father, Pompadour never saw them before and he barked like 4 times, it wasn't an agressive bark but it was like "hey there's five unknown people entering the house"
Then one of them told me that "he is too agressive, he has the house under control, you should watch CM and tame him"
that was a rude thing to say from him, my father told him he is trained and that he was only alerting.Later I shown them how he can walk on two legs and dance a bit while I'm holding a treat above his nose and they where impressed, hahahaha